patrick.net

leoj707 says

Oh, interesting... well then... no cherry picking then 'eh... you sir are then unique among christians.

Not exactly:

Chris·tian·i·ty noun
\ˌkris-chē-ˈa-nə-tē, ˌkrish-, -ˈcha-nə-, ˌkris-tē-ˈa-\
Definition of CHRISTIANITY
1: the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies
2: conformity to the Christian religion
3: the practice of Christianity

thunderlips11 says

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
This is my favorite Bible quote, and I've never seen a satisfactory explanation why it doesn't mean what it plainly says

Do a little research into basic Christianity and you'll get your answer.

Wow, Marcus has now started arguing with himself. I guess it's easier than addressing the points I brought up.

Thought so.

I added a few words if it was too hard to understand that I was addressing the end of the comment that preceded it. But I understand, this should be about time for you to bow out, in one way or another.

I'm recommending a few thousand words. By then you will have completely forgotten what I said (if you even took them in in the first place). And yes I did address your question, quite well before you even asked it.

Yikes it seems like there are two or three different arguments occuring in this room at the same time. It's getting awfully confusing.

How's that for an Argument Clinic! Patrick, how much money do we owe you for these arguments?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

wthrfrk80 says

Do a little research into basic Christianity and you'll get your answer.

C'mon buddy, I can't put all that shit in my posts from just a google/wiki browse.

One great book about Early Christianities would be "Lost Christianities" by Ehrman, also good is "Forged: Writing in the Name of God." The first is particularly good, because it covers all the Early Christian sects that "lost" to Pauline Christianity.

"Jesus" by Crossan is another great book for understanding 1st Century Judea when Christianity was born, but he is a bit of a very liberal Priest, so that colors his attitude I think

And my favorite of all is "Who Wrote the Gospels" by Randall Helms, which tries to shed some light on the Gospel Authors' backgrounds and how it colored how they wrote. Some of the stuff is pretty cool, like Matthew is correcting Mark, whose command of the OT seems relatively weak. Both were believed to be Jewish Christians. One interesting theory of Helms is that Luke was probably written by a Lucia - that is, a Woman. His argument is pretty interesting, one being it's the only Gospel where the females around Jesus aren't bumbling around and actually "Get" Jesus' teachings quicker than the men do.

In any case, Matt 5:18 is one of those Holy Book verses that get ignored when inconvenient. When they want to burn witches or oppose gays, out it comes, when they want to eat pork, it's like it doesn't exist.

Same thing happens in Islam - the whole protect the fellow "people of the book" stuff is heard when Caliphs want the taxes from conquered peoples or tolls from trading with Europe. When they're at war, it's "Even the rock will say, there is a Jew behind me", and all the House of War quotes will be uttered and the rest forgotten.

thunderlips11 says

C'mon buddy, I can't put all that shit in my posts from just a google/wiki browse.

You asked about the following passage:

thunderlips11 says

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

If you don't want to look into the issue yourself, fine.

Here are some hints:

John the Baptist says "look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world."

The Jewish Passover: celebrates the spreading of lamb's blood on the doorposts to ward off the angel of death

The Jewish sacrificial system: killing a lamb as atonement to take away the sins of the people, thus satisfying the demands of the law.

Jesus himself said, "the reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord."

Jesus said, referring to himself, "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Thunder,

Using Ehrman, Crossan, and Helms to learn about Christianity is a little like using Ken Ham to learn about geology and evolutionary biology.

wthrfrk80 says

If you don't want to look into the issue yourself, fine.

My point is that the verse couldn't be more explicit. The Law is still in effect, according to Jesus - whether or not Jesus was the Blood Sacrafice who washes away men's sins (at least those who "Believe upon him").

In other words, sin no more, and my death washes away your sins, but keep following the Law.

wthrfrk80 says

Using Ehrman, Crossan, and Helms to learn about Christianity is a little like using Ken Ham to learn about geology and evolutionary biology.

Nonsense. They're all very highly regarded Bible Scholars and Academics.

thunderlips11 says

My point is that the verse couldn't be more explicit. The Law is still in effect, according to Jesus - whether or not Jesus was the Blood Sacrafice who washes away men's sins (at least those who "Believe upon him").
In other words, sin no more, and my death washes away your sins, but keep following the Law.

St. Paul covers this issue ad-nauseum in his epistle to the Romans.

wthrfrk80 says

Chris·tian·i·ty noun
\ˌkris-chē-ˈa-nə-tē, ˌkrish-, -ˈcha-nə-, ˌkris-tē-ˈa-\
Definition of CHRISTIANITY
1: the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies
2: conformity to the Christian religion
3: the practice of Christianity

I am not sure where you got this definition, but could you post a link? I am suspect becasue it uses the word "Christianity" to define "Christianity". Not very good from when defining a word.

Here you go:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/christianity?s=t

Chris·ti·an·i·ty
noun, plural Chris·ti·an·i·ties.
1. the Christian religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches.
2. Christian beliefs or practices; Christian quality or character: Christianity mixed with pagan elements; the Christianity of Augustine's thought.
3. a particular Christian religious system: She followed fundamentalist Christianity.
4. the state of being a Christian.
5. Christendom.

I do appreciate you citing a definition of the word, and it should be immediately clear that the word "Atheism" is very different from "Christianity".

There is no additional complexity to atheism; the definition is very clear with no additional clarification needed.

To understand what "Christianity" means you also need to define: christian, catholic, protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Christianity of Augustine's thought, pagan, etc. Not so simple. Also, you might note that nowhere in either definition is a strict and literal interpretation required for christianity. Not only that but delving into the additional definitions you will find that many things found under the umbrella of christianity do not require a fundamentalist view of the bible, i.e. a strict and literal interpretation. Also, when listing the beliefs of each demomination that falls under the dictionary definition of christianity you will find that they all cherry-pick.

And speaking of cherry-picking, wthrfrk80 you never answered my questions: Do "real" christians love their families? Can true followers of christ drink a pint of Drano and be OK?

Also see Hebrews 8,9,& 10.

thunderlips11 says

They're all very highly regarded Bible Scholars and Academics.

Among people that want to attack Christianity.

wthrfrk80 says

St. Paul covers this issue ad-nauseum in his epistle to the Romans.

Does he? Can you please cite the verse where the epistles invalidate what thunder is quoting?

There are many hundreds of rules/laws in the bible between the old and new testaments. There is no blanket revocation of all old testament laws however some are altered/updated in the new testament. Some of the "updates" to gods law are also vague.

leoj707 says

Do "real" christians love their families? Can true followers of christ drink a pint of Drano and be OK?

Red herrings. I assume most Christians love their families, but what does that have to do with anything? As for the Drano comment, are you referring to "alternative ending" of Mark that isn't in the oldest manuscripts?

You're not listening, just trying to change the discussion.

I'm through debating this.

leoj707 says

Does he? Can you please cite the verse where the epistles invalidate what thunder is quoting?

That would be the book of Romans. Read it. I'm not going to post the entire book of Romans on here. It's in the public domain.

If you don't want to follow Christianity, than don't. I'm really not trying to convert anyone.

wthrfrk80 says

thunderlips11 says

They're all very highly regarded Bible Scholars and Academics.

Among people that want to attack Christianity.

Oh, not at all. Ehrman in particular is a distinguished professor of Religious Studies at one of the best public universities in the country (North Carolina). His work, as far as I know, is universally respected among classicists and academic theologians. If by "learn about Christianity" you mean learn the theological views of various strains, and the historical basis for them he's great. If instead you mean "develop and retain an unshakable Christian faith", then yes you'd be better off with someone else.

wthrfrk80 says

St. Paul covers this issue ad-nauseum in his epistle to the Romans.

(5:18) "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
is followed by...
(5:19) "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

Makes no sense for Jesus to tell his Jewish Kosher-keeping, Law-Abiding apostles these things, especially if it was just for the short time he was with them, but not mean it for everybody else going forward.

I don't believe the verses here are incompatible with forgiving man's sins via the Crucifixion, it just says those who don't follow the law will be "least in the Kingdom of Heaven".

One could read these passages to find no contradiction, because you could read it as that Men are still saved whether they follow the Law or not - but Jesus wants you to follow the law, and indeed not break the least of commandments, and you'll be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven if you don't follow them.

This is yet another Bible conundrum that shows that the Bible (BOTH OT and NT) were written/edited/revised by competing factions and men pushing a particular line.

Again, there was a battle between the Judaizers and "Proto-Orthodoxy". The Proto-Orthodoxy won, probably by having a larger number of converts attracted by the fact they weren't pushed to obey the Law the Judaizers upheld.

wthrfrk80 says

Read it.

I have and there nothing in there that I find invalidates thunders quote.

The bible is full of contradictions, why do you take an apostles "word" of that directly from Jesus?

That sir is cherry-picking.

leoj707 says

I have and there nothing in there that I find invalidates thunders quote.

Which proves you haven't actually tried to understand the book of Romans.

It's clear to me that neither leo or thunder care to actually understand Christianity. So I'm not going to continue the discussion.

wthrfrk80 says

Red herrings.

Oh, so when does a strict and literal interpretation become a red herring? Hmmm... my guess would be only when one is cherry-picking.

Luke 14:26 Jesus says to be a true disciple of his you need to hate your family.

So, according your assertion that those believing in a strict and literal interpretation are "better" christians then christians that love their families are not being "good" christians.

wthrfrk80 says

As for the Drano comment, are you referring to "alternative ending" of Mark that isn't in the oldest manuscripts?

Oh, so now it is an "alternative ending", how did you put it...? ah yes....
wthrfrk80 says

Well, how convenient.

If you are going to cherry-pick then fine, but don't pretend that your interpretations are somehow better or more valid than others. You just like them are choosing what to believe and what not to believe in the bible. You will dig and dig until you find a "reason" why something you do not like is not really valid, and should not be take literally.

wthrfrk80 says

I'm through debating this.

Of course you are.

wthrfrk80 says

Which proves you haven't actually tried to understand the book of Romans.

No, that only proves that you have not tired to truly follow jesus's teachings in a literal and strict way. You have sought excuses as to why you don't need to follow the new covenant that began with jesus.

wthrfrk80 says

It's clear to me that neither leo or thunder care to actually understand Christianity.

Oh, because we don't agree with your interpretation that means we just don't understand christianity?

Yours is just one in a million different interpretations of christianity and you have not presented a good reason why yours is any better than the other 999,999 interpretations.

wthrfrk80 says

So I'm not going to continue the discussion.

Well, I do appreciate your genuine attempts at communicating your beliefs.

marcus says

But I understand, this should be about time for you to bow out, in one way or another.

Bow out? WTF you talking about, Willis? I made a dozen points, all of which you completely ignored. Meanwhile, I have addressed every single point you made in exquisite detail. Sorry honey, but you've already dropped your entire case and conceded all of my points through silence.

I feel no need to repeat all those points as people can simply Page Up.

wthrfrk80 says

Yikes it seems like there are two or three different arguments occuring in this room at the same time. It's getting awfully confusing.

Yes, the thread has split in two. However, the leoj707/wthrfrk80 argument is clearly distinguishable from the Dan8267/marcus both in content and the participants.

I haven't followed the first argument thread since it's going off into very specific Christian stuff, which isn't of much interest to someone who's advocating that all religions, not just one specific one, are false and destructive.

Dan8267 says

However, the leoj707/wthrfrk80 argument is clearly distinguishable

Yeah, and I think that that argument thread has come to a close.

leoj707 says

Yeah, and I think that that argument thread has come to a close.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/VxEkwUMyDUc

'Nuff said.

wthrfrk80 says

It's clear to me that neither leo or thunder care to actually understand Christianity. So I'm not going to continue the discussion.

Wthrfrk, I don't think this is fair, but maybe I'm not being articulate enough.

By offering my opinion on why and how these verses are disregarded, I don't believe I show a lack of understanding Christianity, just the opposite.

The Bible can and has been used to support many different theologies. Most of these theologies can be advanced with Bible Verses, and have answers as to why competing theologies' bible quotes are inadequate or misapplied.

Calvinists can back up their predestination with Bible Verses:
"Many are called, but few are Chosen" for one, and there are many others (including many that seem to be stretching). So can Non-trinitarians. So can Faith/Grace proponents, and their opponents who believe works can lead to salvation have theirs as well - and all points in between.

leoj707 says

Luke 14:26 Jesus says to be a true disciple of his you need to hate your family.

In an early, cult-like religion, this is a useful quote, since many who join a small outlandish cult will be ostracized by their family. It gives the converted comfort. Now that Christianity is the dominant religion, and has to deal with a situation where most adherents have family members of their own and are not members of a small cult, this verse is "Depreciated", and indeed, almost all the big Christian groups now advocate "Family Values".

Same kind of situation with the Judaizers. To get big with pork eaters, Christianity had to dump the Kosher.

Most Christians today dismiss Jesus' exposition about following the Law. Their justification for doing so is the result of what I believ to have been a long slog between competing theologies. I believe they dismiss it because people not of Jewish Culture would have rejected having to obey the Laws and preferred to join Churches that preached following the Law was entirely unnecessary.

leoj707 says

wthrfrk80 says

It's clear to me that neither leo or thunder care to actually understand Christianity.

Oh, because we don't agree with your interpretation that means we just don't understand christianity?

Yours is just one in a million different interpretations of christianity and you have not presented a good reason why yours is any better than the other 999,999 interpretations.

By "understand Christianity" he means "become a Christian". If you believe that Christianity is true, ipso facto anything you think is an issue must be a misunderstanding.

bdrasin says

By "understand Christianity" he means "become a Christian". If you believe that Christianity is true, ipso facto anything you think is an issue must be a misunderstanding.

Not true.

It's possible to understand Islam w/o beoming a Muslim.
It's possible to undertand atheism w/o becoming one.

I've actually gone on the record as saying Christianity has been shown to be false by genetics: there was no Adam and Eve first couple.

I wasn't trying to convert anyone to anything.

wthrfrk80 says

Not true.

It's possible to understand Islam w/o beoming a Muslim.
It's possible to undertand atheism w/o becoming one.

I agree, and to take it a bit further I think that it is often those outside of a religion can better understand it than those in it. If they have done the reading/research.

A non-believer can more rationally and objectively evaluate the differing opinions of the different sects. One within a religion is going to be heavily bias towards their interpretations and ignore evidence that is contrary to their belief.

Kind of like when scientologists ignore quotes from Hubbard like, "If you want to get rich start a religion." Yet, they insist that no one understands scientology like a scientologist.

wthrfrk80 says

bdrasin says

By "understand Christianity" he means "become a Christian". If you believe that Christianity is true, ipso facto anything you think is an issue must be a misunderstanding.

Not true.

It's possible to understand Islam w/o beoming a Muslim.

It's possible to undertand atheism w/o becoming one.

I've actually gone on the record as saying Christianity has been shown to be false by genetics: there was no Adam and Eve first couple.

I wasn't trying to convert anyone to anything.

Very sorry for my misunderstanding. I'll be more careful in the future.

Dan8267 says

Bow out? WTF you talking about, Willis? I made a dozen points, all of which you completely ignored. Meanwhile, I have addressed every single point you made in exquisite detail. Sorry honey, but you've already dropped your entire case and conceded all of my points through silence.

That will work - it's the first time I've seen you use that one.

or click on this.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

marcus says

Your logic as far as I can tell: Religion is sometimes evil, therefore end all religion.

Or religion is sometimes evil. Religion involves belief in god. Therefore belief in god is evil.

By similar reasoning you could say, humans are sometimes evil....

It's so weak. I thought you were smarter than that.

It makes for cool sounding rants for everyone else. And I get it. "Too much conflict ...can not compute...does not fit my simplistic model....error...stack overflow..."

marcus says

It's so weak. I thought you were smarter than that.

It makes for cool sounding rants for everyone else. And I get it. "Too much conflict ...can not compute...does not fit my simplistic model....error...stack overflow..."

Once again, I've tried to keep this conversation on the issue, but you still have to revert to personal attacks. So be it.

marcus says

marcus says

Your logic as far as I can tell: Religion is sometimes evil, therefore end all religion.

Your reading comprehension skills illustrate why our educational system is doomed. If a so-called teacher has such poor grasp of the English language, then what hope do your students have.

I have never even implied that religion is "sometimes" evil. I've stated that religion "is" evil by its nature.

And you are still dodging all the points. How about address just one?

Tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of Islamic men in the Middle East, deeply and religiously believe that it is a moral imperative to honor kill a woman in their family if she has had sex with a man who isn't her husband, even if the woman was raped.

Tell me that you "respect" that belief. It's a deeply held, religious conviction from another culture. Are you saying you would tolerate honor killings out of respect for these men's beliefs?

Or are you still too pussy shit to address that?

I have addressed every lame ass argument you made and answered every entrapment question you had. You have failed to address even one of my points. That proves beyond any doubt that you have nothing, absolutely nothing, to support your childish and foolish positions.

The fact that you are too lazy to read through more than a few lines of text also makes me cringe to think that you are actually a teacher of anything. I'd say god help your students, but I know that no one is listening. It's actually kind of like talking to you.

thunderlips11 says

In an early, cult-like religion, this is a useful quote, since many who join a small outlandish cult will be ostracized by their family. It gives the converted comfort. Now that Christianity is the dominant religion, and has to deal with a situation where most adherents have family members of their own and are not members of a small cult, this verse is "Depreciated", and indeed, almost all the big Christian groups now advocate "Family Values".

Yep, it's all marketing bullshit. Religions are always started as scams, grow if they are successful scams, and have to cover up their old scams with new ones to prevent collapse. Religion was the first scam, and it's still the most popular one.

leoj707 says

Kind of like when scientologists ignore quotes from Hubbard like, "If you want to get rich start a religion."

I've always thought that Hubbard started Scientology as a lark, and then some con artists decided it could make real money and took it to the next level.

Dan8267 says

Or are you still too pussy shit to address that?

For the third (or is it fourth) time.

marcus says

I can understand people taking issue with fundamentalist christians or islamic fundamentalists as being an impediment to progress or worse. Maybe my language was not clear, but I was assuming people would know what I meant.

If someone wanted to argue that the world would be better off without religious extremists or without fundamentalists (who take their Bible or Koran literally - when it suits them), I could accept that as a reasonable assertion.

But to me this is far different than asserting that the world would be better off without any religion - and without any belief in god, even if it is possibly true (since eliminating all religion does eliminate the extremists and or fundamentalists- but still unknowable since it eliminates all religion - the belief of 80% of the world(some kind of belief in god)), but still also in my view possibly false.

I said this before you made this argument.

I give up. I think I get it. You're so emotionally challenged you want to be on my permanent ignore, so that I'll stay out of all your threads. I called it right before. You're an adolescent.

I respond repeatedly to what you say is your biggest best argument, and it's something I addressed before you even made it. And I repeatedly quote it, and still all I get is.

"you're avoiding my question."

I get it. You've got nothing other than:

Sometimes religion is evil, therefore to this genius engineer all religion and all belief in god is evil.