patrick.net

chip_designer says

and most parents want their kids associated with kids of similar family status. You don't care if your kid associates with bad , bully kids?

Yes, I want my kids to stand up to the Bullies. (Or be a bully so he can run for president like Romney. ) They are going to have to learn that life is hard, and they'll need the social skills to handle adversity. If they are sheltered and stuck in the house hitting the book, the best they can do is become a fucking geek engineer that doesn't get laid. If they hang out with kids from a similar background (ie geek kids from geek Indian/Chinese families) they'll never know how to even relate to a 6'5" 350lb former linebacker from Wisconsin. They'll never learn to handle bullies in the work place. I want my kids to be the alpha dog/bitch that know his/her shit but also has the skills to lead his/her pack of geek engineers to do his/her bidding.

Stories like these are fun to read but not nearly as inspiring to the everyman as people think. people who do that are very special people who with a touch of luck managed to exploit their talents and hard work to the top. Not everyone is capable of that, and not because they are too lazy as per the merrikan style ad hominem.

People move to Cupertino for the same reasons rich parents make their kids go to Ivy Leagues, the same reason that Zuckerberg is a billionaire; far greater potential to make connections to a rewarding career. But even then, and even with her; nothing is ever a certainty.

She could drop out or graduate with honors, but until she uses her experiences to do something awesome(attending is not awesome) or make mountains of cash it really means nothing. Luckily for her, her story shows the very kind of drive on needs to break through barriers to success.

I think that everyone here knows that raising "successful" children is not a black and white thing. Success depends on how well parents act like parents, surrounding environment, the school, the kid's friends, the kid's own natural inclinations and unforeseeable events in the kid's life. Certainly, putting your kid into a highly rated school with lots of financial resources where they are surrounded by other kids that work hard will have an impact of some sort. To buy into a school like that, chances are that the parents are riding their ass too.

Take that same kid + parents, and put them into an "average" school in the neighboring district, and it is sort of hard to say what impact that will have. As long as the school isn't loaded with poor children whose parents are never around to make them do their work and instill the importance of hard work, chances are that the kid with "good" parents will do just fine. Hell, one of my good friends went through the EPA school system and saw all sorts of sordid stuff go down (hard drugs, pregnancies, rapes) and she is now happily married, with a masters in Athletic Training (graduated with high honors) and doing just fine. Her parents kicked her ass and kept her straight, despite the iffy high school environment. She of course doesn't want any of her kids to have to go through that, but at the same time it helped shape her into the tough cookie that she is.

In the end, I think that the ultimate goal is to raise self sufficient, HAPPY adults. From my observations, it seems like a lot of parents are shooting for this, but in a sort of blind way where the big answer to all of that is just "making lots of money" and/or "going to a prestigious school." Money is a fact of life in this society and is necessary to get by. It absolutely does NOT buy happiness though. It does buy you options, and it is a parent's job to teach their kid to see the available options and pick the smart ones. Blindly choosing the options that lead to more money in every case isn't really the path to happiness or fulfillment as far as I can tell.

Serpentor says

To get to the next level, they need to learn personal skills and leadership. Qualities that make them become leaders (Community leaders, VPs and CEO's) are NOT learned from hitting the books in pressure cooker schools, they are learned from living a balanced life and excelling in sports and other activities.

I went to a well known engineering university, and we hard core engineers used to look down of the athletes taking management majors, now I look at my linkedin and all of the former atheletes are VPs and CEOs.

Yeah the frat boys pretty much run everything.

Serpentor says

If they are sheltered and stuck in the house hitting the book, the best they can do is become a fucking geek engineer that doesn't get laid. If they hang out with kids from a similar background (ie geek kids from geek Indian/Chinese families) they'll never know how to even relate to a 6'5" 350lb former linebacker from Wisconsin. They'll never learn to handle bullies in the work place.

Yeah I know all about that.

chip_designer says

and most parents want their kids associated with kids of similar family status. You don't care if your kid associates with bad , bully kids?

'status', eh?

Would that be 'status' like (Tiger) mom's 'status' in her social pecking order? Would that be the difference between mom's Lexus and her Toyota?

Regarding the "bad, bully" kids, it's a false choice. Not every K-12 that's outside of The Fortress is dominated by "bad, bully kids". I hear this all the time in the canyons of cubicles at work in "the Valley". Parents who are status oriented or clueless or whatever have outsourced their parenting responsibilities to the API of the local K-12.

Because like Serpent saidSerpentor says

From your writing, it sounds like you did not grow up here.

Serpentor says

I think most immigrants associate going to a good high school with success because thats the way they were raised. Except they had to pass a certain national exam to get into the schools in their home country. Getting into a good school puts them in on track out of poverty. If they don't test well, they don't have any chance of success in life. In the US, they think they can buy their way into a good school and success for their kids.

That is right. Their "GaoKao Culture". But this is the USA, not the Far East. And the API is not the GaoKao.

chip_designer says

i bet most people who complain of the crazyness around fortress real estate, don't have kids going to high school.

An (immigrant) engineer explained it to me when a different immigrant complained about the craziness around Fortress real estate. She took me aside and discretely told me that he "was jealous".

Serpentor says

I went to a well known engineering university, and we hard core engineers used to look down of the athletes taking management majors, now I look at my linkedin and all of the former atheletes are VPs and CEOs.

Be careful about titles. There is a great deal of title inflation in certain industries. Hollywood and Wall Street jobs are notorious for abuse of the term VP. If you're not a VP, then you're basically entry level or a step above.

It's not like being a VP at an old-line insurance company, where you've got 2,000 people under you.

Same goes for titles like "Director." Hard to tell if you're middle-management or running the entire company.

And then, there's the title inflation connected with the proliferation of startups, where everyone is a CEO or a CIO or a Chief Something-or-other.

The real litmus tests: How much money are they making, and how many people are reporting to them? Remember to adjust for cost-of-living, and be careful when contractors are claimed. "Oversight" over a contractor often just means that the person has worked with a contractor on a project.

Yeah, I'm cynical. I guess I've just read too many resumes.

yeah, my gf works in banking. I know all about inflated titles and "VP"s. but my former classmates are all in tech or head up hospitals etc....

chip_designer says

and most parents want their kids associated with kids of similar family status.

some readers think status is keeping up with the jones. I did not imply that. People of different social classification , if outside work, don't want to mingle together. Talking about the techie/mgmt parents kid with a janitor/gardener/car mechanic parents kids. And this does not happen, so people of similar classification tend to move together, as in fortress neighboorhoods.

B.A.C.A.H. says

But this is the USA

a big pot of mixed cultures.

chip_designer says

chip_designer says

and most parents want their kids associated with kids of similar family status.

some readers think status is keeping up with the jones. I did not imply that. People of different social classification , if outside work, don't want to mingle together. Talking about the techie/mgmt parents kid with a janitor/gardener/car mechanic parents kids. And this does not happen, so people of similar classification tend to move together, as in fortress neighboorhoods.

There you go again thinking like a immigrant. I'm guessing indian based on your focus on social classes. Friends for your kids (or yourself) should depend on the person not their economic background. Some of the biggest loser lazy spoiledkids come from advantaged background while a blue collar kid might be a good influence based on their family work ethic. Fyi. Jim clark grew up from a dirt poor family.

Serpentor says

Some of the biggest loser lazy spoiledkids come from advantaged background while a blue collar kid might be a good influence based on their family work ethic.

True that.

Serpentor says

chip_designer says

chip_designer says

and most parents want their kids associated with kids of similar family status.

some readers think status is keeping up with the jones. I did not imply that. People of different social classification , if outside work, don't want to mingle together. Talking about the techie/mgmt parents kid with a janitor/gardener/car mechanic parents kids. And this does not happen, so people of similar classification tend to move together, as in fortress neighboorhoods.

There you go again thinking like a immigrant. I'm guessing indian based on your focus on social classes. Friends for your kids (or yourself) should depend on the person not their economic background.

There you go, thinking like an old-fashion midwesterner :-) !

And yes, I concur with you. From my experience, the whole socioeconomic caste thinking is alive and well, all over elite suburbias, from Boston to DC. The immigrant mindset, from Asia to eastern Europe, hasn't made it any better. Instead, it's now a multi-ethnic polarity (WASPy, Jewish, eastern European, east Asian, south Asian) neurosis. The thing here is that it's not a useful thing, as many soon discover, those neighbors really don't stay friends with you, as soon as you either lose your job or have to re-located elsewhere. My closest friends, after all these years, are more from the low to regular income backgrounds from semi-rural (western MA, Maine, VT) regions or ordinary towns around the cities. I seldom speak to the wannabe nouveau riche "Greenwich CT-to-Scarsdale NY" Gucci/Louis Vitton glutch, outside of work related conferences.

chip_designer says

if outside work, don't want to mingle together. Talking about the techie/mgmt parents kid with a janitor/gardener/car mechanic parents kids.

Dude, you are hilarious. You are making remarks in jest to parody some over-the-top-snobbery and elitist attitudes.

Fact of the matter is, whether you choose to believe it or not, is that I am a techie (though I don't need to boast about it in my handle), my partner is in finance and we and our kids mingle with all types, all of the time. But we are Americans (one of us, an Asian-looking American), fully assimilated into American society and comfortable in our shoes.

Our oldest kid got accepted a couple of years ago to all of the UC's except Berkeley and UCLA, although some of her classmates from our non-Fortress high school did wind up in those places, also a handful went to the Ivies and Stanford. So her non-Fortress high school did not hold her back. She had all kinds of friends from all kinds of backgrounds, as did her friends at those elite universities.

Hey BACAH,

NO STANFORD NO RESPECT! WHY YOUR CHILD CONSTANT DISAPPOINTMENT?!

bimmerman,

Stanford and the other Elites are best deferred for grad school. And in grad school, some majors provide the support for the full time students.

Of all the whining we hear about of those grad school student loan burdens, except for medicine it's only for majors that don't add productive value.

Some of majors like MBA are even anti-productive to our civilization.

No Stanford no respect! This is price you pay for living in poor neighborhood with lazy gwailo parents. Without high API school no prestigious university will accept! Good luck to become doctor or lawyer, the only respectable professions.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Some of majors like MBA are even anti-productive to our civilization.

Amen to that!

chip_designer says

i bet most people who complain of the crazyness around fortress real estate, don't have kids going to high school.

I have more than a few friends who went to Cupertino/Sunnyvale HS, and now their kids are going to the same schools. They too dont understand the crazyness around the fortress RE. So whats changed in the HS or Cupertino what would have warrented such higher prices...

Take it from people who been around here and seen it all...

there isnt anything .. nada..zer0... i dont know whats inside these peoples mind for them to rush and push prices 2-3x higher vs pre-bubble mid 90s prices...

B.A.C.A.H. says

my partner is in finance and we and our kids mingle with all types, all of the time

my god, people really misunderstand others, and add mistake on top of other comments.

I mingle too with my gardener, with grocery bagger , with the contractor bidding on my project, just so I can get a good deal or to not sound cold. I don't want people to hate me.

But do you invite them for dinner at your house? or how about going to a golf range together?

thomas.wong1986 says

I have more than a few friends who went to Cupertino/Sunnyvale HS, and now their kids are going to the same schools. They too dont understand the crazyness around the fortress RE. So whats changed in the HS or Cupertino what would have warrented such higher prices...

your frienthomas.wong1986 says

there isnt anything .. nada..zer0... i dont know whats inside these peoples mind for them to rush and push prices 2-3x higher vs pre-bubble mid 90s prices...

thomas.wong1986 says

Take it from people who been around here and seen it all...

there isnt anything .. nada..zer0... i dont know whats inside these peoples mind for them to rush and push prices 2-3x higher vs pre-bubble mid 90s prices...

You didn't meet or talk to a real chinese or indian who bought a 1 million+ home (in the past 5 years) in saratoga, cupertino

by word of mouth, these people think there must be something very beneficial to kids going to these schools, and therefore warranted to buy a house in there, no matter how expensive it is.

and you did not see anything, nada , zero?

and you are chinese. I am surprised by your comment.

chip_designer says

my god, people really misunderstand others, and add mistake on top of other comments.

I mingle too with my gardener, with grocery bagger , with the contractor bidding on my project, just so I can get a good deal or to not sound cold. I don't want people to hate me.

But do you invite them for dinner at your house? or how about going to a golf range together?

Its you who is misunderstanding. By your definition that is not mingling. That is business, not friendship.

I actually do have friends in the blue collar field, my kickboxing/mma partner is also my mechanic.. (a good mechanic is like GOLD, esp if you have some semi-legal performance modifications in your car, LOL)
There are a few guys in my group of friends that don't make a whole lot of money (social worker)

Yes most of my friends are in the tech industry, just because start of friendships typically start out in school/universities. however, some of my friends came from dirt poor backgrounds, while others have parents who makes Romney's fortune look like pocket change (we didn't know until much later because he was so laid back and modest). Family economic background should not determine friendships. I would not think for one second if my kids wanted to befriend a good hardworking kid who's parents are gardeners or plumbers.

chip_designer says

by word of mouth, these people think there must be something very beneficial to kids going to these schools, and therefore warranted to buy a house in there, no matter how expensive it is.

herd mentality. Sheep. baaahhh. actually more like lemmings "all my friends are doing it, I guess I should too"

Actually most of them have been around for a long time, brought when Cupertino was just middle class. They worked hard to save up the money, rose up though the ranks, and maybe made some money on stocks...

chip_designer says

and you are chinese. I am surprised by your comment.

No im not chinese... BA has had asian, latino, and whites for a long long time. Cupertino is no different. An east Asian or East Coast American who bought $1M home is a FOOL. What exactly can you say has changed in the school since I or anyone of my friends graduated in the 70s-80s. And no dont say computers.. we had the back then !

chip_designer says

You didn't meet or talk to a real chinese or indian who bought a 1 million+ home (in the past 5 years) in saratoga, cupertino

plenty.. and they get a real dose of reality after 1 hour... many of these people were not even aware of places like Silicon valley before year 2000. Even worse they are clueless on how the economic engine works around here. $1M home in SV dont work...

all you have is hype today.. and schools are part of that hype..

Why get so worked up over people willing to pay $1M for a 3/2 tract house?
If it is so stupid, well they will end up financially ruined, right?

Some of you guys want the world to go back to the nice, comfortable days of 1980’s when the Russians self imploded and the Chinese behaved like good coolies and Indians were mud people that didn’t know shit about software and japan were just like short mericans that can build good cars but of no threat otherwise.
The world has become way more competitive and will be more so in the future.

I don’t think it is bad to overfocus on a good education. The alternative is much worse. I would even go as far as to state that much of the usa’s dysfunctionality is due to her people’s failure to master simple math and lack of knowledge of scientific methods to problem solving. Of course, we in patnet are not like that, it is the other 95% behind the tree that are the problem.

thomas.wong1986 says

No im not chinese...

i see, but thomas.wong is chinese name, but not you. Its just an alias, you pretend to confuse people right? :)

Serpentor says

herd mentality. Sheep. baaahhh. actually more like lemmings "all my friends are doing it, I guess I should too"

yes, we all know that, it is human nature. Just look at the iphone phenomenon.

don't you have one too?

chip_designer says

Just look at the iphone phenomenon.

don't you have one too?

It's the cult of Apple!

thomas.wong1986 says

schools are part of that hype..

see this story just came out today, you don't have to read the whole thing, the title says it all:

http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_20840660/east-san-jose-parents-assail-intolerable-middle-schools

so if you are a parent who can afford things, then you will know why cupertino houses are prized.

chip_designer says

Serpentor says

herd mentality. Sheep. baaahhh. actually more like lemmings "all my friends are doing it, I guess I should too"

yes, we all know that, it is human nature. Just look at the iphone phenomenon.

don't you have one too?

nope. Android for me. Iphones are nice, but I really love my android phone (widgets, Built in Navigation, Flash, Bigger screen, 4G internet, inexpensive removable batteries & MicroSD cards)

chip_designer says

thomas.wong1986 says

schools are part of that hype..

see this story just came out today, you don't have to read the whole thing, the title says it all:

http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_20840660/east-san-jose-parents-assail-intolerable-middle-schools

so if you are a parent who can afford things, then you will know why cupertino houses are prized.

right. because there are only choice between the ghettos and over priced fortresses. LOL

with all the emphasis on their kids learning math and science. It really shows that the parents are the ones that need to learn math. LOL

Serpentor says

right. because there are only choice between the ghettos and over priced fortresses. LOL

Shhh ! Do you really want them and their kids, with those values, spilling over out of The Fortress schools into where our kids goto?

Call it Crazy says

kt1652 says

I would even go as far as to state that much of the usa’s dysfunctionality is due to her people’s failure to master simple math and lack of knowledge of scientific methods to problem solving. Of course, we in patnet are not like that, it is the other 95% behind the tree that are the problem.

And over paying for a house in a "good" school district will change that??

How do you know this is too much house payment for these folks?
Because they don’t have golf club memberships, expensive cars, jet set vacations?
What if they are happy to live within a comfortable commute for their jobs or businesses and good schools are very important to them?

Maybe some of them just have more money than you realize because they don’t spend it on frivolous ways. Some of them have parents that lived self imposed life of frugality and they actually have money set aside to help their children. It is not suffering for them, sacrifice yes, but worthwhile in their value system.
But like I said, if people are so stupid and way overpaid, assuming these are not the old timers that bought in 1982. They will suffer financially.
Lets go back to 1982, when my class mate bought a house in SJ for 210K. It was really really expensive then too and BTW his parents funded his downpayment.

As far as how living in a good schools helps advance math and science skills.
I know for a fact, in statistical terms, going to a low achievement school will lower thier test scores in a significant sample size if all other factors are unchanged.
Lets not be so simple minded to think this one swatch of SV can be representative of the entire usa. How the general society behaves is way too complex and beyond a paragraph but I will tell you it is probably represented by a bell curve. There will be outliers on the tails who will be considered abnormal. It could be these school score buyers are on the extreme end, trying their very best to give their children the best odds possible within their influence. Now if the entire usa society were compelled to achieve magnitude order of educational achievement, lets say in math and science, then the entire bell curve would shift. But in order for that to happen, there has to be a way to measure progress. How do you do measure it?

kt1652 says

good schools

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

B.A.C.A.H. says

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".

Pretty much. Almost any system can be "gamed."

Serpentor says

with all the emphasis on their kids learning math and science. It really shows that the parents are the ones that need to learn math. LOL

I wonder why every flicking car dealer I ever went to ask me "How much payment can you afford each month?"
My wife who has a ms in computer was also hounded relentessly on how much car can she afford each month?
She told me, "I just want them to tell me how much is the car going cost but they just kept pushing for the monthly payment."

Do you know why they do that?
Because it works, people just end up buying on monthly payments. Seems to me this is representative of the general ignorance of simple, compounding math issue.

Math and science give you understanding of trends and rate of change and a whole bunch of other things like noise and probability. If you don't see how these skills would help us flush out charlatans politicians that promise us solutions that are not mathematically viable.
Remember, it is easy to solve a small problem early if you know it will compound into a huge future time bomb.
Do we have any problems like that?

So enlighten me on how you would measure school achievement.

B.A.C.A.H. says

kt1652 says

good schools

Because you are making the confusion API = "good schools". No. API = "good test takers", or maybe even "good teaching to the test".