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Public teacher’s high pay is not justified!
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2012 Jul 10, 8:23pm 46,594 views 142 comments
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None of the other jobs on your list are paid for by taxes.
Marcus, say, how are Marines getting paid? Firefighters?
What about Doctors in the VA hospital? State Prison?
Btw, Marcus, I can spend hours and hours ridiculing every single sentence you write - all of them are filled with discrepancies, lies, and misapplied statistics.
But I won't - I simply don't have time. Here is my very last favour for you:
68% statistic. It's faulty, and for many reasons. 1) Far more kids are going to public schools than private/home school. It's like saying more Chinese drive cars than Monacoans, hence Chinese are richer than people in Monaco... But that's a lie - there are very few Monacoans, and they drive Bentleys.
Second. 68% of class in public school not because, but DESPITE the latter. All Public schools do is dumb down the kids.
Side note to Vicente: YES I CAN QUANTIFY EVEN THAT - by showing how american kids perform before they enter public school (they perform best against their foreign peers) versus few years into (about average), all the way to graduation (you know, when the full beauty of American Publik sKooling is applied) - they are the worst.
Yes, American public sKools are even worst than the same in crap holes like Lithuania or France. Gee, if only our Olympic team lose to Latvians, would we fire all coaches right away, or would we wait 3 minutes? Plz show your work!
Vicente
2012 Jul 12, 3:52am
Yes, American public sKools are even worst than the same in crap holes like Lithuania or France.
I'm not sure what makes France a "crap hole", I see them at #13 in the Education Index. Oh where's USA? down at #21.
You might then say.... "let's look at what works in France or Lithuania".
Well if it's the UNION whipping boy people are looking for, or high pay, or "too much vacation" for teachers, I got some bad news for ya. France has unions, in fact they are not toothless and have gone on strike to get what they want in recent times. France has many more assistance programs, more kindergartens, education is free at all levels or very nearly.
New Renter
2012 Jul 12, 3:52am
I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.
"... A Nexis search of all news documents during the years 2000-2005 that included the words "letters to the editor," "teachers," "underpaid," and "overworked" produced 168 documents.
The same formulation for other professoins produced these results:
doctors - 60 documents
lawyers - 30 documents
secretaris - 30 docs
firefighters - 23 docs
marines - 15 docs
priests - 6 docs
carpenters - 2 docs
waiters - 1 doc
Source: Godless, Chapter 6 "The liberal priesthood: Spare the ROD, Spoil the Teacher".
Did hedge fund manager, Fortune 500 CEO or central banker make the list?
freak80
2012 Jul 12, 3:56am
I'm not sure what makes France a "crap hole"
It's a crap hole because the French hate freedom!*
*for the wealthy and powerful to rule in their own interest at the expense of everyone else.
FortWayne
2012 Jul 12, 3:58am
Well, the title of the thread is "Public teacher's high pay is not justified!" Is there anyone who seriously thinks that, at least ideally, educating children should not be a prestigious and, yes, highly compensated profession? If I had to make a list of priorities for my tax dollars, compensating teachers would be near the top of the list.
It would be on that list if money translated to better education. But it did not in the past and it doesn't today. Every time the costs just go up, education standards and quality either stays the same or drops.
So far money has not been a solution.
Alexis is rapidly approaching my "ignore far-right trolls" list...
Hey, wthrfrk80, it's the link right above "Discussions" - go for it.
I honestly can't have a conversion with people like you - you can't follow the simple argument, you switch context, and add useless, out of place stats to back it up...
So far money has not been a solution.
Every time liberals talk about more money for schools and children, they mean more money for teachers unions and public administrators.
Vicente
2012 Jul 12, 4:11am
So far money has not been a solution.
Elementary teacher in USA:
circa 1982-1983 was $20,375.
circa 2009-2010 was $55,350
That's a little above inflation, but not by a lot. Obviously the solution is pay minimum wage.
evilmonkeyboy
2012 Jul 12, 4:18am
marcus says
The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.
Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.
So let me get this straight. A high school chemistry teacher with 180 students doesn't have to spend time setting up the labs that they do in class. The chemicals magically mix themselves and then put themselves away. The 180 lab reports the teachers collects on a Friday magically grade themselves over the weekend (at 3min/lab report that is 9 hours) and then they somehow just appear in the grade book. What about homework assignments? Who prepares that? Grades it? Records it? Who maintains the teachers web page daily? Deals with parents? Prepares lectures? Work one on one with students?
Yes... teachers have really pulled the wool over our eyes by making us think that they grade papers and prepare for class outside of their contractually paid hours.
circa 2009-2010 was $55,350
don't have much time, but really can't resist this one. Do you know how liberals twist statistics?
By combining all substitute and part time teachers, and by not accounting benefits.
It's like combining doctor pay with dental hygenists ($10/hour), residents ($5/hour, considering 36 hour shifts and $30k/year salary), and medical students ($0/hour) and saying:
Doctors circa 2009-2010 was $40,000.
Reality is, teacher's pay is much higher than average ($50K median HOUSEHOLD income in the US), for much less work (2/3 of the year, including every conceivable holiday, break, and snow day).
Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!
Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.
But now they unionized, and demand more pay!
Yes... teachers have really pulled the wool over our eyes by making us think that they grade papers and prepare for class outside of their contractually paid hours.
Say... what time does that overworked teacher leaves work? 2:30pm in december. Not applicable in July...
bdrasin
2012 Jul 12, 4:22am
Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!
Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.
But now they unionized, and demand more pay!
OK, suppose you just tell us what you think public teachers should be paid? No need for a long post, just give us a round even number so we can know where you are coming from
tatupu70
2012 Jul 12, 4:27am
Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!
Well, that's certainly a convincing argument. Factual, unbiased, based on statistics...
OK, suppose you just tell us what you think public teachers should be paid?
Most should be fired, jailed perhaps. The remaining - based on their performance. Some good teachers will make hundreds of thousands, with long lines of appreciating students and parents trying to get their business. Millons if your name is Khan (google Khan academy).
People should get their property tax moneys refunded, and decide how and where to spend on educating their kids.
hey, I hear it's 21st century, we have internet, and can watch Khan Academy for FREE??? Isn't it what you do when you want to learn algebra or history, anyway? I mean, when you really want to learn, not when you seat on your pants in school listening to disinformation facilitators discuss how to use condoms?
FortWayne
2012 Jul 12, 4:27am
A high school chemistry teacher with 180 students doesn't have to spend time setting up the labs that they do in class. The chemicals magically mix themselves and then put themselves away.
I don't know about every teacher and every school, out here homework gets rarely assigned, it never gets graded - A's are assigned for home work being simply turned in. Basically students today can graduate via attendance, not merit. And I personally have a problem with that.
Not all schools are the same and I get it. But what I see isn't education or quality.
Vicente
2012 Jul 12, 4:28am
Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!
Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops. In college it was MGT Majors, I remember one guy whose favorite outfit was a bathrobe later joking about how much money he made for nothing productive.
YMMV.
Well, that's certainly a convincing argument. Factual, unbiased, based on statistics..
Why don't you walk into any university bar on thursday night and see for yourself? ANY university (!!!) bar.
Then walk into chemistry lab, or computer lab.
Compare with medical and engineering majors.
Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops.
Sorry, I talked to chicks in the bar, not dudes :)
Vicente
2012 Jul 12, 4:36am
Sorry, I talked to chicks in the bar, not dudes :)
You may not have noticed that women work these days. "Jerks and idiots" is not male.
I remember one guy whose favorite outfit
You may not have women are employed these days. "Jerks and idiots" is not male.
...
tatupu70
2012 Jul 12, 4:37am
Why don't you walk into any university bar on thursday night and see for yourself? ANY university (!!!) bar.
Then walk into chemistry lab, or computer lab.
Compare with medical and engineering majors.
Well, when I went to school my engineering mates drank pretty well and partied quite a bit....
Not sure what that has to do with whether teachers are overpaid, however.
freak80
2012 Jul 12, 4:41am
Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.
what about proper grammar?
freak80
2012 Jul 12, 4:43am
Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops.
Ever see the movie "Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle"?
what about proper grammar?
Well, how about hitting that "Ignore" link instead of searching for flies in my trousers?
Vicente
2012 Jul 12, 4:47am
Vicente says
I remember one guy whose favorite outfit
Vicente says
You may not have women are employed these days. "Jerks and idiots" is not male.
...
Oh you want more stories than just one randomly picked male? I had another mechanical engineering classmate, very smart girl. During school she made money stripping. Post graduation she couldn't stick with engineering jobs due to an addiction to money, went back to it. Money, drugs, and there's a predictable spiral from there. Was there a point to all these anecdotes? I forget.
Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops.
We can certainly start another thread about the "underpaid police officers", who "put their lives in constant danger", and "say good bye to their kids not knowing it's the last time they see them", and so forth...
If anyone is overpaid for doing least work more than teachers, I would certainly nominate the unionized bullies in government jumpsuits with badges.
Here are some stats from Fullerton, CA:
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2012/a-close-look-at-total-compensation/#comments
Take a look at Kelly Thomas case if you have time - the unionized thugs tortured, tazed, and sadistically murdered an innocent civilian who didn't resist and didn't do anything innapropriate (as publically availabe city camera video showed), then pretended that victim resisted arrest, and fought, and had their supervisors cover for them:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/111611.html
Cops are just another matter. Although socialism always works the same - least work for most pay, and complete disregard for your customers (be it the innocent civilians or school kid).
Every time liberals talk about more money for schools and children, they mean more money for teachers unions and public administrators.
And more money for construction projects.
freak80
2012 Jul 12, 5:51am
Teachers make fabulous money yes. I see them in their BMW's and Mercedes Benz's all the time.
Teachers make fabulous money yes. I see them in their BMW's and Mercedes Benz's all the time.
I suppose you didn't read the "Millionare next Door" by Stanley & Danko. Cliff notes: you are not what you drive...
marcus
2012 Jul 12, 6:13am
Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.
"This September, public schools provided almost 70 percent of the students entering Harvard"
That was 2009
http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/harvarddean-part5/I read elsewhere that 68% of the class of 2015 are from public schools.
marcus
2012 Jul 12, 6:23am
By combining all substitute and part time teachers, and by not accounting benefits.
This really is bs. I despise the type of dishonesty this guy spews, so this is the last thing I'll say to AlexS.
Here's a typical salary schedule. It's for las vegas. Some rural areas are going to be way lower, some urban areas (where you can't buy a starter home for under 400K) are going to be somewhat higher.
http://www.ccsd.net/employees/resources/pdf/salary_licensed_benefits.pdf
Teachers are well under paid. If you think otherwise then you were under educated, it shows.
Oh, the beauty of liberal reason and logic...
You know who was well over paid...... Mitt Romney....
Apparently, I am supposed to be more outraged by what Mitt Romney does with HIS money than by what Obama does with MINE.
http://www.ccsd.net/employees/resources/pdf/salary_licensed_benefits.pdf
Outside of Las Vegas Strip, Nevada is not known for a high cost of living. Where average per capita in Nevada is $27K. Manhattan it is not...
So, let's see how the public disinformation facilitators working 2/3 of the year, with awesome job security fare... You know how secure your job is? You practically have to have sex with your students for several years before you are shown the door...
Anyways, here I am seeing lowest numbers in $50Ks and high numbers in $90Ks.
That's what teachers are making - 50Ks at start of their careers, and $90Ks, before they get to retire to their cushy pensions - none of that 401K pittance like the rest of us mundanes...
Also, not seeing numbers for administrators, and principals, and assistant principals, and councils, and trainers, and consultants... You know, folks making 6 digits on taxpayer's dime...
So, how did you come up with median $55K ????
Well, I already told you why. It's like all socialist statistic methods - you include substitute teachers, and underemployed teachers, exclude principals and other highly paid "educators", and do other hedonics. You know, same methods they use to "measure" inflation, or "prove" the US is lacking in childbirth deaths. With later - only the US counts premature births in the statistics, while Cuba doesn't start counting until the child is born and 3 months old... Oh, the beauty of Socialist "statistics"...
freak80
2012 Jul 12, 6:38am
oh the beauty of your delusion is boundless and only second to your moronic sense of grandeur.
They usually resort to the "L word" when they lose, don't they?
Your money.lol Did you complain when BUSH spent it all from Jan 2000-2008, no complaints? I wonder....... Time to pay up
As a matter of fact... YES I HAVE...
Tea Party = Kock Brothers. FULL STOP
While Koch brothers are hijacking the Tea Party movement, it was started in 2008 when Ron Paul supporters raised $6mln on Boston Tea Party anniversary.
The most important thing to understand is this:
Tea Party = Tax Paying American.
Anti Tea Party - Tax Eating American.
I beat HRHMedia is a tax eater!!!
freak80
2012 Jul 12, 6:50am
The Republican base has gone completely batshit crazy. It's amazing what having a black president will do to some people.
It'll be hilarious when all the "conservatives" vote for Romney purely out of hatred for Obama. Romney had "socialized medicine" in Massachusetts, for god's sake. But they'll do whatever Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the Cock Brothers tell them to do.
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Many teachers claim their incomes are insufficient. Many times they are not compared to the private sector because most teachers have very little real world, private sector, experience. They do not realize that pension and healthcare benefits that range from $10,000 to $60,000 a year are included in wages. Not including these huge benefits is a falsification of their compensation. Also, teachers have phenomenal job security which is not included in their nominal wages. Truthfully teachers only work about 2/3 of the year which is omitted from the conversation! Not too many private sector jobs get this perk, it’s funny that this is not factored in when looking at wages. Also not many private sector jobs have yearly scheduled pay increases equal or greater than inflation. It is easy to steal more money from tax payers, it is hard to compete to be deserving of those pay raises.
In the business world, an employee or owner brings in a certain amount of revenue to a company. In most circumstances, the compensation they get for their work is between 10%-15% of that revenue. Capital, raw materials, managers, interest, energy, facilities, transportation, and taxes all need to be paid with the other 90% to 85% of the money. So if someone makes $100,000 a year income, under normal circumstances, it is safe to say they bring in about $850,000 to $1,000,000 revenue a year. This shows that the worker is returning their worth to society because people voluntarily spent their money with their business and declared this entity worthy.
Now let’s look at the Public school teacher. In WI, the cost to educate a child per year in the public sector is around $12,000 a year! This is not viable in the private sector because nobody would be able to afford it, but let’s give teachers the benefit of the doubt. Then let’s say they teach 25 kids. 25 times $12,000 is $300,000 revenue a year. 15% of $300,000 is $45,000 a year. Including benefits, a starting teacher in WI makes $50,000 and a teacher with 30 years makes $95,000 with benefits. That is about 30% of revenue! This is all assuming that the $12,000 a year is possible. How many people can afford to pay that? That is why the private sector schooling is so less expensive!
Does anyone know why kids only go to school 2/3 of the year? It is because 120 years ago kids had to work in the farm fields! The public education school system is so outdated because it is restricted from competition! If schools had to compete for students and their funds, maybe then kids would be getting taught. In the private sector, companies don’t just get a geographic monopoly and get their customers handed to them like public teachers do. The private sector has to perform and prove their value to the customers. If they don’t, they will go out of business and those customers will go to succeeding schools. What this country needs is to restore capitalism to the education system. They should force schools and teachers to compete and let the parents decide where they want their own money spent and on what education they desire is best for their children, not some central planner in Washington!
Also one of the biggest detriments to free education is that it is FREE! People do not value things as much as when they have to give up hard earned funds. If parents had to spend even 50% of the cost to educate the child, they would be furious if the kid was not getting a return on their investment. If their kid came home with a C, the parents would express the cost and value of the education and ensure his performance. Now parents don’t even care because they don’t visually see the money being extracted from their paychecks in the form of taxes over the course of their lives. Collective responsibility of education diminishes the parent’s role in requiring value for the services their child should be receiving.
I recently calculated the dollar per hour wage of a 5th year teacher I know. They only work 35 hours a week, 39 weeks a year, which is 1365 hours a year. With a wage of $59,000, which includes benefits, this equals $43.22 an hour. How many private sector jobs offer this pay with all the given perks?
Teachers pay, the truth comes out:
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=17229597071022
Also, watch the movie “Waiting for Supermanâ€.
http://www.movie2k.to/Waiting-For-Superman-watch-movie-482494.html