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CME Housing Futures: disappointment or impatience?


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2006 Jul 10, 3:58pm   27,172 views  248 comments

by Randy H   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Housing Futures

We anticipated the Chicago Mercantile Exchange housing futures and options for months before the market launched. We theorized and debated what impact this market would have on everything from the housing market itself to home builders to mortgage lenders to home owners. We fantasized that someday home prices would be linked to the region's CSI housing index. We discussed ways we could become fabulously wealthy -- or at least a bit safer financially -- by using housing futures.

We even predicted that ETFs that would surely quickly follow in the wake of CME futures and options markets.

What happened? The market is fundamentally sound. It is technically sound. There should be enormous theoretical demand from hedgers and speculators alike. So, where are they?

--Randy H

(For those interested in deeper technical financial discussion, feel free to post here where I'm running a parallel discussion.)

#housing

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163   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 5:54am  

For the guys here, I don't know about you but Mrs. DinOR wouldn't care what it took she would want that fixed before she got home! At the very least before the engagement dinner here this coming Saturday.

"But hon, it's a very "special" gutter, they have to ship it in from Muncie, IN"!

Yeah......... right. Just fix it Mister.

I'm now planning to do a photo scrapbook documenting the demise of a shitbox. God this is funny, TWO years old!

164   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 5:55am  

I’m now planning to do a photo scrapbook documenting the demise of a shitbox. God this is funny, TWO years old!

Who built that stuff?

165   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 6:18am  

Peter P,

Unlike CA many homes and condos in OR are built by small independent operators and most are actually quite good. I met the "builder" one time and he was fishing for compliments and I really didn't have any for him. Genuine or otherwise. For a 1,450 sq. ft. condo to have only ONE phone jack in an "up scale" unit made it difficult to "home office". Actually there are several phone jacks in the bedrooms but only ONE in the main room.

The other night I was on our back deck and I noticed the unit on the opposite end's deck was starting to shall we say......... settle? I don't exactly have an eye for art but you could see that the handrail was lower toward the river than to the house. (It didn't used to be that way).

166   HARM   2006 Jul 12, 6:20am  

I’m now planning to do a photo scrapbook documenting the demise of a shitbox. God this is funny, TWO years old!

Oh, please do! Can't wait --we'll have to make a thread out of it.

Your advice about not buying anything built during the bubble was spot-on. Just look at all the Lennar lawsuits going on in FL due to shoddy construction. Ben's blog has an article about it at least once a week.

167   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 6:20am  

For a 1,450 sq. ft. condo to have only ONE phone jack in an “up scale” unit made it difficult to “home office”. Actually there are several phone jacks in the bedrooms but only ONE in the main room.

We use wireless everthing now, with cordless phone and wi-fi, so the lack of phone jacks does not bother us too much.

168   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 6:24am  

HARM,

Will do! Daughter #2 has a digital camera so this will be a snap. I understand that any deck should slope away from the house "slightly" after all this is Oregon. But the deck is so obviously lop-sided it isn't funny.

169   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 6:26am  

But the deck is so obviously lop-sided it isn’t funny.

I remember going to an open house in Palo Alto recently... I nearly lost my balance walking around the house.

170   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 6:30am  

Peter P,

That is what we ultimately learned. We now have a wireless modem and can fax, surf and talk at the same time. It took some doing and a little trial and error but we finally got it dialed in. In order to install add'l jacks that would have been an expense. Since there is no crawl space they have to go into the attic. Not fun. Wouldn't it have been better to just put a few in before the drywall went up?

171   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 6:34am  

Peter P,

I'm told, in time ALL homes settle. No big there. But these were built right on a creek. If this is the result after two years what will they look like in 20?

172   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 6:35am  

Enjoy savory gourmet pizzas, caeser salads, fresh strawberries, ice cream and flavored lemonades.

No caviar? :(

173   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 6:36am  

tannenbaum,

Who are they going to get to skydive? FB's with nothing left to lose?

174   Glen   2006 Jul 12, 6:46am  

Who are they going to get to skydive? FB’s with nothing left to lose?

Hopefully the divers will experience a softer landing than the FBs.

175   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 6:52am  

Rainmaking- I read that the Chinese routinely seed clouds to get rain and to break up hailstorms.

Or one can intensify storms like they did in State of Fear. :)

176   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 6:59am  

"Hopefully the divers will experience a softer landing than the FB's"

LOL! Damn!

They're resorting to "car lot" tactics to sell homes! And why not? It's all about the monthly payment isn't it?

If any of you get the chance rent (don't buy) the movie "Slasher".

No it is not a "slasher movie". It's done by John Landis (The Blues Brothers) about the ULTIMATE used car salesman and was shot over a couple of days in Memphis. The guy is a stone alcoholic and car lots from around the country call him in to clear inventory. It's a side of America most Americans don't get to see. Funny stuff.

177   HARM   2006 Jul 12, 7:05am  

We have a new metaphor to add to the blog collective:

FB as a parachute-less skydiver.

178   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 7:07am  

SFWoman,

My old boss said he would run into Bill Gates and his wife going out to the movies like any other couple up in Redmond. Now? Forget it. I did feel bad for a lot of the people that worked hard to build relationships w/Vulcan Enterprises though. A lot of hard work and rejection just to get their foot in the door and after numerous failed investments (including the "Trailgangsters") Paul threw a lot of good people "under the bus".

Paul? What do ALL of these people have in common? Yeah, that's right, Paul, you! You!

I had clients that worked for the now defunct Oregon Sports Arena and felt their futures were secure b/c they had their wagon hitched to a billionaires star. One of the wives was soooo snooty everytime I would call. How's that working out for ya'?

179   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 7:09am  

newsfreak,

NOTHING has been right in MA this year. Much weird weather.

180   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 7:10am  

FB as a parachute-less skydiver who thought they have soft-landed at 30000 ft.

181   HARM   2006 Jul 12, 7:16am  

Robert posted this on Ben's blog last week, but I'd say it's worth repeating here:

'The Bigger The Boom, The Bigger The Crash’
Comment by Robert Cote
2006-07-07 13:42:33

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. As of this time we are plummeting earthward in a death spiral that is sure to lead to our demise. But the good news, the people in the building we are about to crash into will die before us. Thank you for flying Real Estate Airlines for so long. We know you have a choice of investments and we brokers… err… crewmembers know you have a choice of investment vehicles. We also appreciate you willingness to pay more than fulll price for tickets and for your faith in us for so long after everyone predicted we would run out of gas, just as we are doing now. Again, thanks for flying and enjoy your coming swift departure."

182   Glen   2006 Jul 12, 7:57am  

How do you even price a $100 million home?

See if you can rent it out for $800,000+/month.

183   GallopingCheetah   2006 Jul 12, 8:11am  

Astrid,

I don't know what I would do if I do make 10 bil. Here are a few random thoughts.

Vaguely speaking, helping excellent causes, especially in traditional research --the star-alignment and ancient history sorts, as Peter P would put it. I'd love to support a few starving (but naturally talented) phycists (as physics was my passion before coming to US of A) and mathematicians. I like archeaology. So I'd support a few expeditions. There are a lot of potential digs in western China, where the ancient dynasties were seated.

I don't care much about directly helping the poor. THere's never enough money to help the poor in this world. One cannot easily justify helping one group of poor people and neglect the vast majority. To me, it's a lost cause. In addition, I don't believe in indiscriminate kindness and generosity. Money should be used to elevate the best people in this world. By elevating the best, we indirectly help the lesser.

I would set up a venture capital fund. The financing terms will not be as predatory as the other funds. But I will call the shots.

I would also use the money to cultivate political influences. I will be too old to enter the political life. But I wish to send some of my children to the military and diplomatic services. Elective politics in a democracy is to be avoided. Should one of children choose an artistic or research career, that'll be fine with me. But the boy must at least give the military service a try. My children will be discouraged to pursue a business career, unless he is naturally talented in and strongly predispositioned towards it.

I will also set up my fiefdom and take care of those who live under me, for loyalty goes in both directions.

184   DinOR   2006 Jul 12, 8:23am  

SFWoman,

You know it's hard for me to say b/c I don't work downtown any more and most of my clients that WERE season ticket holders have absolutely bailed. Here's what I do know, Paul Allen defaulted on hundreds of millions of bonds, fired his financial advisor (hired his sister) and left Oregon Arena Sports in ruin. The Trail Blazers are on the auction block and a couple of the former players and Jeld Wen are talking about partnering up in time for the fall season. The reason I'm so vague on much of this is b/c no one seems to care. After you've been in Oregon for awhile nothing much upsets you any more.

185   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 8:23am  

GC, are you my altered ego? :)

186   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 8:27am  

I don’t care much about directly helping the poor. THere’s never enough money to help the poor in this world. One cannot easily justify helping one group of poor people and neglect the vast majority.

Cannot be more true. This is why helping research and education is so much better than feeding starving children. Sorry for being insensitive, I am a utilitarian.

187   GallopingCheetah   2006 Jul 12, 8:37am  

Peter, c'est tres possible.

188   Glen   2006 Jul 12, 9:27am  

I don’t care much about directly helping the poor. THere’s never enough money to help the poor in this world. One cannot easily justify helping one group of poor people and neglect the vast majority. To me, it’s a lost cause.

Not true. Gates has been successful in vaccinating millions to curtail preventable diseases. There are a variety of infectious diseases which can be curtailed at very low cost. This is a good use of philanthropic dollars, IMO. He also provides scholarships to deserving low income students, so it is not an "either or" propostion.

In addition, I don’t believe in indiscriminate kindness and generosity. Money should be used to elevate the best people in this world. By elevating the best, we indirectly help the lesser.

And at what point does is this supposed to trickle down to the poor? How about at the point when a multibillionaire software mogul decides to help them.

189   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 9:37am  

Gates has been successful in vaccinating millions to curtail preventable diseases. There are a variety of infectious diseases which can be curtailed at very low cost.

True. Vaccination gives a lot of bang for the buck. It should be high on the priority list.

And at what point does is this supposed to trickle down to the poor?

Sometimes it is better just to make a snap judgement and do the right thing. Philanthropy needs not be scientific. :)

190   astrid   2006 Jul 12, 9:44am  

The helping the 3rd world poor thing is a pretty small concern in this country. People I meet seem much more interested in "rescuing" animals than feeding 3rd world children. Other OECD countries might have different priorities.

Gateses' philanthropy efforts are quite cost effective. The cost of preventing an epidemic is much lower than the cost of living through one. Developed nations benefit too, because of closer disease monitoring and reduced need for military intervention. However, the innoculation efforts are better if combined with teachings of population control and sustainable agriculture.

191   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 9:48am  

However, the innoculation efforts are better if combined with teachings of population control and sustainable agriculture.

Absolutely. Quite paradoxically, the priority for developing countries should be:

1. Education
2. Food
3. Disease

Reversing the order will make the world more unsustainable.

192   GallopingCheetah   2006 Jul 12, 10:00am  

Misunderstood, I resign.

Gates' AIDS cause is an excellent one. As someone has already pointed out, it benefits everybody on this planet.

Human society is a pyramid. There will always be poor people. What is considered poor living condition today was regal a few thousand years ago. It's all relative. You cannot fight poverty and win. It's just not possible.

Behind every vehiment demand for the rich to give to the poor, I sense envy at work.

193   skibum   2006 Jul 12, 10:07am  

SQT Says:

July 12th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
John Burns Real Estate Consulting When Does it Become a Hard Landing?

Interesting reading. This guy seems pretty mixed on real estate's outlook, although one thing he doesn't factor in is the potential for a RE slowdown to significantly affect jobs, given the high portion of recent new jobs from the RE/construction/RE finance sectors.

194   astrid   2006 Jul 12, 10:09am  

GC,

Those are pretty good points. Most of the pre-19th century knowledge innovations came from natural philosophers patronized by princes and noblemen. The tenures and grants may be more meritocratic, but it overemphasizes politics and presentation, and many smart people are completely alienated from the system.

I'm not so sure about the influences of diplomats and militarymen. Their influence seems to have peaked around 1915, and then started declining. Media mogulship might be the way to go, if you're interested in power and influence.

I don't know if we in the developed world have the stomach to really wait out the problem children nations of Africa. They're structurally backwards (strong tribal identification, weak nationalist or humanist identification) and overcrowded. That's often a recipe for decades or centuries of bloody civil wars where many tribes may be completely eradicated (like in Rhwanda if the Hutus were left alone, or still happening in Congo).

Are you thinking of the digs in Sichuan or further northwest? Or perhaps closer to the Wei and Huang rivers? The yields from the Sichuan digs is quite amazing, and a very interesting addition (alternative?) to the traditional Chinese history narrative.

195   skibum   2006 Jul 12, 10:11am  

RE: the Saudi prince's Aspen resort, that kind of stuff just pisses me off. First off, how much skiing do you think this guy does? He probably spends one week a year or less at this place. Second, how many bathrooms do you really need? More than 1 per bedroom?

At least it'll boost the comps for the area. Also, I wonder if the realtor (who is currently creaming in his pants at the possibility of a sale) is getting the full 5%? I've heard once you're above a certain price range, the commissions are more pre-negotiated.

196   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 10:14am  

Checking in.

Hey, Escaped, welcome back! :)

I miss your website, resistyourbiology.com.

197   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 10:15am  

Second, how many bathrooms do you really need? More than 1 per bedroom?

2 per bedroom would be nice. His-and-hers.

198   astrid   2006 Jul 12, 10:15am  

Skibum,

Bandar seems aimed at driving the billionaires out of Aspen in favor of the multi-billionaires :)

There's almost no way he could possibly get that much. Those Saudi princes have very distinctive (ie gaudy) tastes that will not appeal to most buyers at that price level. Anyone moving in would have to do massive redecoration and price that into his/her costs. Even if Bandar actually dumped a lot of money into the place, it's highly doubtful that someone would buy him out at those price levels.

199   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 10:19am  

That’s often a recipe for decades or centuries of bloody civil wars where many tribes may be completely eradicated (like in Rhwanda if the Hutus were left alone, or still happening in Congo).

It has everything to do with humanity at its raw form. There is little to be done. Any form of help will be drained before effects can be seen. Perhaps we should just leave it alone.

200   astrid   2006 Jul 12, 10:21am  

A question for any civil engineers and dam enthusiasts amongst us: why do dams that cost so relatively little to build (Glen Canyon, Hoover, Hetch Hetchy) now cost so much for maintenance? Is there anything about dam building that has gone up hugely in cost?

201   Peter P   2006 Jul 12, 10:21am  

Anyone interested in seeing me set up that website?

Absolutely.

202   skibum   2006 Jul 12, 10:23am  

I even had my Realtor in CT asking me if I thought there was going to be a “hard landing”.

I said, “lady, the plane ain’t got no wings and even the dogs back in cargo have got it figured out.”

Nice.

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