patrick.net

marcus says

Is it a charter school ?

No, not charter, just vanilla public school.

It's not the money. I've already done way too much work protesting this to make the money relevant. It's the idea that schools can break the law and no one will challenge them on it. And this law is not just any law. The availability of free public education is essential to giving everyone a chance to succeed on their own merits. It's written into the state constitution.

Since its adoption in 1879, the California Constitution has required that the state provide a system of free public schools. In 1984, the California Supreme Court ruled unequivocally in Hartzell v. Connell that “[i]n guaranteeing ‘free’ public schools, article IX section 5 fixes the precise extent of the financial burden which may be imposed on the right to an education — none.”

SFace says

In your world, you think about illegal fees and principles. As a parent, I think about the classroom and what is the best classroom for my child.

And apparently you don't think about what's best for anyone else's children at all. Maybe $42 is not much to me, but there are kids around here who really cannot afford it. And all over the state as well.

Do they deserve a free education or not? And don't give me any crap about making them beg for humiliating vouchers and exemptions.

The availability of free public education is essential to giving everyone a chance to succeed on their own merits. It's written into the state constitution.

Yes, but what if a school decides to go way above and beyond what they must provide, to offer a little something extra, based on the assumption that parents will gladly either put up a security deposit (I have heard of a charter school that does that with iPads), or pay a small insurance charge for having that for their child.

I would never be a school administrator. ButI if I were, I could see myself making such a decision, and thinking it was good, and estimating that parent would mostly like it.

Maybe they got a grant for the iPads, but not enough to pay for yearly maintenance and replacement.

As a taxpayer, I am paying for "free" public education, which is a public good that I believe in. I expect what I'm paying for to be provided as per the social contract, i.e. the Constitution and laws of the state. For "extras" above the budget, there are bake sales and tax subsidies (which we all pay for) for teachers who provide whatever extras they can't get the school to budget for.

I also believe in free public libraries, and I would object to anyone putting a paywall at the front door.

I also believe in providing vaccines and true emergency medical care as a public service, and I only wish more people would demand that as well instead of the lobby-driven system we have now. Education is a better predictor of longevity than medical insurance, which means it is literally a matter of life and death, and worth fighting for.

One day that type of technology won't be something extra, but at present California wildy underfunds it schools. Class sizes are high and teachers at many schools have furlough days every year, because the schools can't afford to pay them their 2007 contract salary.

Times are tough.

marcus says

what if a school decides to go way above and beyond what they must provide, to offer a little something extra

It wasn't offered. It was demanded.

marcus said:
I went to a public high school, and we bought our books at the beginning of each year and sold them back at the end of the year, except for some of the soft cover books that we had to buy to keep.
Where was this?

SFace, I appreciate your contributions and normally let cultural differences slide. But on this one, let me say, welcome to the US of A. We educate the peasants here.

I'll bet Patrick, if you were an illegal alien, the State would buy your kid an iPad of her own.

We wouldn't have any of these problems if parents actually had to pay the full cost of educating their kids instead of trying to stick it to the taxpayers.

marcus says

Class sizes are high

Exactly how high? When I went to elementary and high school, about 33-35 kids per class was the norm.

Along the same lines, I'd like to see most toll booths renamed "tax booths" since in most cases, the road or bridge you are crossing was paid off decades ago.

marcus says

But they should probably just have an honor system, and the tax payer should eat the losses of all the students who lose, break or steal the iPads.

How many of these lost Ipads will end up on eBay?

jvolstad says

if you were an illegal alien, the State would buy your kid an iPad

Around here it's different. If you were an illegal alien, government would pay for comprehensive "free" medical to stop you buying from cheaper Mexican pharmacies, but if you complained about public school administrators demanding payment for "free" education you'd get deported. It's about maximizing revenue at every opportunity.

marcus says

Yeah, $42 ! That implies that nearly one in 10 iPads per year will be broken, lost or stolen by a student. What a rip off.

Perhaps one in 10 is broken, lost, or stolen??? From what I understand, kids break stuff about as often as the proverbial bull in the china shop. Did anyoen think to ask for these statistics from the school?

Is it that hard for the schools to have"Property of xxx" engraved on the case and on a small portion of the screen such that if stolen the pad is less likely to end up on ebay? As for breakage aren't there enclosures that make tablets more or less kidproof?

zzyzzx says

Perhaps one in 10 is broken, lost, or stolen???

Yes. I was being facetious. Same thing in previous comment about honor system and taxpayers paying for it.

IT's a valid question going forward.

Soon students will have to have some sort of portable devices. Hopefully they can eventually get text books that way, intead of the govt buying books that wear out (sometimes in just 4 or 5 years).

But when students do start having portable computers, required, how will it work ?

Will parents have to buy one, as part of school supplies (like notebooks and other supplies now)?

Or will the state have to buy them and replace them even if a child goes through 10 of them in a year (maybe selling them on the street for drug money?).

Seriously. How will this be handled ?

Patrick. How do you suggest it be handled ?

That is based on the assumption that eventually every student will need a portable computer, with some sort of standardization of platform, how do you propose this be handled ? THat is the purchase, maintenance and so on.

Clearly, one thing we know is that the children will temporarily take possession of the devices, and might benefit from some motivation to care for it and not lose it or break it. And yet we know that sometimes they will be broken, lost or stolen.

New Renter says

Is it that hard for the schools to have"Property of xxx" engraved on the case and on a small portion of the screen such that if stolen the pad is less likely to end up on ebay?

Sure. They can even have lojack type devices in them that make them theeir location traceable.

EBGuy says

Where was this?

North suburbs of Chicago. Famous north shore school actually.

zzyzzx says

Exactly how high?

Average is in the mid 40s. For some classes this isn't so much of a problem, for other it is.

marcus says

But when students do start having portable computers, required, how will it work ?

Will parents have to buy one, as part of school supplies (like notebooks and other supplies now).

Or will the state have to buy them and replace them even if a child goes through 10 of them in a year (maybe selling them on the street for drug money?).

Seriously. How will this be handled ?

Patrick. How do you suggest it be handled ?

I like books. Real books.

I don't quite see why each child would need their own portable computer, especially when the electronic content they might need is all available on websites.

But I was saying given the assumption that things go this way, how would you suggest it be handled.

(whether it will or should is a separate question, and an interesting one, but if we were to assume that it is a good thing, how should it be handled?).

EBGuy says

SFace, I appreciate your contributions and normally let cultural differences slide. But on this one, let me say, welcome to the US of A. We educate the peasants here.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about.

Since I was pretty sure that's illegal, I complained and was then allowed to register her without either paying or agreeing to accept all liability for it.
But now she's being singled out for public humiliation as the only student whose parents didn't just roll over and obey. They won't let her take the iPad home, and at the same time they require her to do homework on it. They're using her now to pressure me to agree to the illegal charge.

Not sure what to do in the immediate future though, since this is harming my daughter right now

Making a point at your child's expense is foolish. The child is being harmed over that? That's my sincere advise.

I like books. Real books.

Maybe this is what it's really about. IF he thought it was really awesome that the kids are getting Ipads, he probably wouldn't have minded so much.

Who would have guessed ? Patrick is a closet Luddite.

I like books too. And yet I also like to acquire digital books on my kindle. IT's nice having so many books on the one little device.

I can't imagine that college student 50 years from now will have 5 text books for the five classes they are taking. To the extent that they are using books, won't they be on a kindle or Ipad type device ? Sure, maybe a lot of content will be online, but they will have some sort of very portable device for accessing that too.

marcus says

New Renter says

Is it that hard for the schools to have"Property of xxx" engraved on the case and on a small portion of the screen such that if stolen the pad is less likely to end up on ebay?

Sure. They can even have lojack type devices in them that make them theeir location traceable.

Do the school models have GPS and 4G? If so it should be quite possible for them to be traceable.

marcus says

I can't imagine that college student 50 years from now will have 5 text books for the five classes they are taking. To the extent that they are using books, won't they be on a kindle or Ipad type device ? Sure, maybe a lot of content will be online, but they will have some sort of very portable device for accessing that too.

Some sort of very portable device...Like a book?

marcus says

$42...implies that nearly one in 10 iPads per year will be broken, lost or stolen by a student.

Obviously not a math teacher. Without actually reading the insurance policy, there are far too many variables to translate back and forth between the premium and the expected number of losses. Is there a deductible, and if so how much? Does the policy cover all losses, thefts, and damage, or only under certain circumstances? What would the actual replacement cost be at the discounted price Apple is offering the school? Almost every insurance policy contains limitations, exclusions, conditions, etc. If the insurance policy was required but not shown to you, then a rational person allowed to read it and choose freely would probably say no. In a captive market, where customers are not allowed to refuse, a for-profit insurer would inevitably charge more than the policy is worth.

New Renter says

Some sort of very portable device...Like a book?

One little very portable unit, with an appropriate sized screen, to hold all of a students texts, and allow them to access online content and to access interactive content that can then be submitted to a teacher. I think there is a lot of potential for this type of technology in the classroom, and I''m pretty sure it's inevitable, unless the book publishers manage to postpone it for a long time.

But not lugging a back pack with multiple heavy books is especially appealing to me, compared to my recollection of my student days.

I can't believe that curious2 came in to this thread apparently just to troll me again. I couldn't care less whether he believes I'm a teacher.

Or for that matter whether he comprehended an extremely simple point I was making.

Please stop following me. If I'm trying to ignore you, the least you can do is leave me alone,... you sad little weasel.

marcus says

I can't believe that curious2 came in to this thread apparently just to troll me

I can't believe it either, considering I posted the first comment to this thread and several others before you arrived. I won't reciprocate your name-calling, but your comment illustrates your inability to think logically. If you're still pretending to "ignore" me (while using a different browser to see my comments), you aren't very convincing when you keep replying and calling me names. Ask some of the children how to ignore someone, they can probably give you a few pointers.

BTW, I certainly hope you don't teach in public school. The children and the taxpayers both deserve better.

It's a silly issue. The software should be available on other devices, or even paper and pencil work. If the kids needs an iPad then they can do the insurance payment as you said and get one or just have alternatives. Maybe they can learn to write apps by age10.

We bought iPad insurance for our kids device and it cost about200 bucks for a2 year plan.

KILLERJANE says

We bought iPad insurance for our kids device and it cost about200 bucks for a2 year plan.

Who did you buy it from and how much does this particular ipad cost new anyway?

KILLERJANE says

We bought iPad insurance for our kids device and it cost about200 bucks for a2 year plan.

Wow, that is expensive! Is an iPad really all that?

Textbooks ain't that much cheaper than the tablets.

Big Textbooks go for $140 on up, easily.

(Edit: put back in last sentence)

thunderlips11 says

Textbooks ain't that much cheaper than the tablets.

Big Textbooks go for $140 on up, easily.

I'm guessing that college textbooks are way more expensive than elementary school or high school textbooks, but I'm sure that someone else here might have better info than the guess off the top of my head.

Buy anyway, even at $400 for an Ipad, that's the price of 3 textbooks, which way less than the price of all their textbooks.

Actually I would think that some sore of cheaper reader might be more appropriate than an Ipad. Of course Apple might not like that.

zzyzzx says

Big Textbooks go for $140 on up, easily.

And most of that price is monopoly profits. Kind of like airport food. Once they have you trapped, free market competition is done. You pay whatever price they say, or do without.

The texts are not even especially good. Students could probably learn better from the Wikipedia than from lots of the textbooks I've seen and used.

Richard Feynman has some amusing comments about the textbook selection process and how corrupt it is in his book "Surely You Must Be Joking Mr. Feynman!"

zzyzzx says

Buy anyway, even at $400 for an Ipad, that's the price of 3 textbooks, which way less than the price of all their textbooks.

This is true. However, nobody is asking for $20 insurance payment per school year per textbook.

The texts are not even especially good. Students could probably learn better from the Wikipedia than from lots of the textbooks I've seen and used.

This is also true. I think there's a book, "Lies my Teacher Told Me". It's definitely got a bit of a left Bias, but it explains who really writes the textbooks. Basically they are written so as not to offend the most easily offended schoolboards (think Texas). Loewen mentions that one textbook gives 3-4 pages to Betsy Ross' apocryphal Flag Sewing (this is largely legend; there's little evidence the flag design originated with Betsy Ross) but barely 3 paragraphs to George Washington. Despite being Left, Loewen makes the point that Betsy Ross is put in some of the textbooks to give a token Woman hero; he suggests Abigail Adams instead.

They're also not written by the distinguished Professors whose name graces the front pages; often just a part of a chapter is reviewed by them. Most of the textbooks are ghost written by professional, unknown textbook writers.

His beef is that concentrating on individual characters and avoiding controversy (so the most school boards adopt - and buy - they text) makes History boring to kids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me

Students could probably learn better from the Wikipedia than from lots of the textbooks I've seen and used.

That is so true!!!!

My earlier comment about using a cheaper reader instead of an ipad got me thinking if Apple had something to do with this. I went into my local WalMart and went looking for MP3 players. The only ones that they had in the store were all Apple products, at the in-store Apple store. A non-Apple branded MP3 player could not be found in that WalMart.

You are right patrick. We pay taxes so that schools don't charge us money. Service is paid for through taxes. This is not just illegal on their part, it is immoral too.

I can't provide any advice though, call a lawyer?

I should probably sue them for making me pay an extra $100 every year in property taxes to pay for "books". That's another bull**** fee.

The governor could sign a bill at any moment (AB 1575) that would provide the missing enforcement mechanism, so that parents would have a formal channel to complain about illegal charges for public schools and not have to actually go and file a lawsuit for each charge.

I hope he signs it. I heard he has till the end of this month. Not sure what happens after that if he doesn't.