patrick.net

edvard2 says

Thedaytoday says

I believe the title of this this is "Why do people waste so much money on cars?"

Exactly. Very good observation.

lol, you are one of them. How much have spent on you cars over 15yrs+ TOTAL!

and what are the VALUED at today?

edvard2 says

Thedaytoday says

Your lucky, the majority spend on avg $250 pm. in loss of equity or maintenance

I seriously doubt that. Unless they drive a total POS that needs constant repairs and its out of warranty.

No this is true. Ask any dealer.

edvard2 says

Its because cars are better than they used to be. Back when I was a kid in the early 80's you'd be lucky to get 100k out of a car before the thing was totally worn out.

I personally drove a 79 fiesta, 83 fairmont, and 86 mustang to high 200k each. They were just fine and all could have continued much further except for an unfortunate demise (totalled by drunk while parked, carb fire, sold when I moved overseas). You are talking about cars before the elimination of leaded gas in 74. Lead killed motors, 100k and the rings were shot. Unleaded gas and frequent oil changes meant 300k was pretty easy to achieve. Interesting that car sales tracked population from wwII to the late 70's then flattened way out in the 80's to today. Population went from 200-220 million in the 70's to 300-330 million in 2000-2010 but car sales only went from 13-14 million to 15-16 million a year.

That being said I agree cars are light years better. EFI is the biggest winner. I was totally amazed with my 5.0 mustang. It just started and run perfectly every time. Carbs were always crude and ragged running at best. Getting rid of ancient pushrod engines was second. Today's ohc engines are like sewing machines rather than farm tractors. The huge push to minimize NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) in the 90's was third. The 2 generations difference between my 89 e32 bmw and my wife's 98 e39 bmw is just amazing. So much smoother and refined it's hard to believe.

edvard2 says

Thedaytoday says

That's good for you but most people like driving a new car and not one from the 80's.

Well I'm happy for them then. Personally I like having my own house and a lot of savings to spend on the things I enjoy. As well as the means to not worry about having to eat cat food in my old age.

Good for you, but you could make money on your cars instead of losing money. Instead of arguing over nothing with me ask me how I do it?

If you look after your cars well then a lease is perfect for you.

Also you will build valuable credit with leasing. Did you forget that?

SFace says

Thedaytoday says

I am at a loss.

I am happy to explain, which part is losing you?

A lease is just a contract to own the first 24K miles or whatever your lease terms are.

Whether there is down payment, payment, it comes to the same point, the expected residual value of that car with 24K miles on it with mint condition.

A lease is just the same as depreciation. In the first 24 months of the car life cycle, it is by far the most expensive. If your strategy is to lease a car, all you are doing is perpectually paying for the most expensive portion of the car life.

It is not that simple. The business is a network of participants who try to game.

The residual is a make believe number. If you can negotiate a good sell price you get to realize it over a short period of time. The residual will not change if you get a good deal.

Just find deals with unrealistically high residual and low money factor. Then it is down to negotiating a good price.

You will be surprisef.

edvard2 says

Thedaytoday says

That's good for you but most people like driving a new car and not one from the 80's.

Well I'm happy for them then. Personally I like having my own house and a lot of savings to spend on the things I enjoy. As well as the means to not worry about having to eat cat food in my old age.

Ps. you love make irrelevant anecdotal conversation. your situation is unique to you. you can repair your car. 99.9% cannot. enjoy your cat food!

instead of having two worthless cars you could have two brand new cars year after year.

Would I drive a 20yr piece of shit toyota, no way! A 2014 all day long. Go lease, enjoy a new car at no maintenance cost.

Thedaytoday says

Good for you, but you could make money on your cars instead of losing money. Instead of arguing over nothing with me ask me how I do it?

Sorry, but you cannot gain "equity" on a used car. Ever. As in the car is "used" the second it drives off the lot. If the argument is that you get trade-in money in return for ANOTHER car then that also makes no real sense: You are STILL making a payment.... right? So how is paying money on a monthly basis whether it is a lease or a payment better than not having any payment at all?

So here's the comparison:

You: Making a monthly lease payment
Me: Haven't had ANY payments in over a decade

So please let me know exactly how I am losing money when I'm not actually paying any money except $15 for oil filters and oil every 2-3 months?

Peter P says

It is not that simple. The business is a network of participants who try to game.

The residual is a make believe number. If you can negotiate a good sell price you get to realize it over a short period of time. The residual will not change if you get a good deal.

Just find deals with unrealistically high residual and low money factor. Then it is down to negotiating a good price.

You will be surprisef.

Nothing of value is simple. It took me a very long time to get what I wanted. But I was patient and demanding with the dealers and got my way.

NOTHING DOWN, NO INTEREST, MAXIMUM RESIDUAL ON TRADE IN!

'

Subaru have massively high residuals , hence lower finance costs!!!!!!!! Mark my words, lower finance costs on Subaru's over Toyota and Honda all day long. Do not get any extras!! NONE, do not get leather and forget the expensive GPS unless it's free!

edvard2 says

Sorry, but you cannot gain "equity" on a used car.

LMFAO! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I said new LEASE.

Please read careful. NEW LEASE

edvard2 says

So please let me know exactly how I am losing money when I'm not actually paying any money except $15 for oil filters and oil every 2-3 months?

Did you bother answering my question? Yet you ask another and another of me.

Thedaytoday says

LMFAO! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Idiotic statement.

Let's not go down the path of name calling. I asked a fairly simple and straightforward question: How are you saving more money than me when you're actually spending more money than me?

Thedaytoday says

Nothing of value is simple. It took me a very long time to get what I wanted. But I was patient and demanding with the dealers and got my way.

NOTHING DOWN, NO INTEREST, MAXIMUM RESIDUAL ON TRADE IN!

And your monthly lease payment is how much?

bob2356 says

Thedaytoday says

Nothing of value is simple. It took me a very long time to get what I wanted. But I was patient and demanding with the dealers and got my way.

NOTHING DOWN, NO INTEREST, MAXIMUM RESIDUAL ON TRADE IN!

And your monthly lease payment is how much?

$250 as I said.

I keep every penny of the equity on trade in and carry it over into the new lease.

edvard2 says

Let's not go down the path of name calling. I asked a fairly simple and straightforward question: How are you saving more money than me when you're actually spending more money than me?

If you want to converse with me start by answering what I ask you before you ask another and another question! That is the height of rudeness. It pisses me off.

Thedaytoday says

How are you saving more money than me when you're actually spending more money than me?

I am not only saving money with zero maintenance and interest free finance which build credit. I profit from the equity! Do you?

The money I spend is building equity every PENNY! I get 100% BACK++++

While your vehicles are worthless and have less and less value. every penny you sink into it you lose like most people.

Thedaytoday says

edvard2 says

Sorry, but you cannot gain "equity" on a used car.

LMFAO! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I said new LEASE.

Do you sell or trade in at a price that is higher than your buy out?

Can you describe the process?

Thedaytoday says

Did you bother answering my question? Yet you ask another and another of me.

This is a very simple debate tied to ordinary arithmetic. So here's the math. I will fully divulge how much my vehicles cost me.

Car payments: $0
Maintenance: Around $100-$200 per car per year ( includes oil changes etc)
Insurance: About $65 per vehicle per month
Gas: They both get around 30 MPG. So about $40 per week ( only drive one to work)

So working that all out comes to approximately $306 dollars per month for all of the items mentioned above, or about $153 per car. So that's my out of pocket expenditures

edvard2 says

Thedaytoday says

Did you bother answering my question? Yet you ask another and another of me.

This is a very simple debate tied to ordinary arithmetic. So here's the math. I will fully divulge how much my vehicles cost me.

Car payments: $0

Maintenance: Around $100-$200 per car per year ( includes oil changes etc)

Insurance: About $65 per vehicle per month

Gas: They both get around 30 MPG. So about $40 per week ( only drive one to work)

So working that all out comes to approximately $306 dollars per month for all of the items mentioned above, or about $153 per car. So that's my out of pocket expenditures

Again you refuse to answer my question. How much are your cars worth today? How much have you invested ?

ps nobody here mention gas costs. that is irrelevant.

Oh, I see you already mentioned you paid $250 per month lease. Well automatically I can state that is $250 more per month that I am not paying.

edvard2 says

Car payments: $0

Depreciation is a kind of payment. Back before ZIRP and QE, there used to be opportunity cost too.

edvard2 says

Oh, I see you already mentioned you paid $250 per month lease. Well automatically I can state that is $250 more per month that I am not paying.

again you refuse to answer the questions, but continue to ask new ones.

I gave up pondering or worrying about why people piss away money on frivolties, a long time ago. I realized that, for the most part, it was because there's plenty of folk that don't understand the value of a dollar, being that they never have to work for it.

One mans loss is another mans gain. I've done quite well over the years with buying used for cash, and reselling within about a year for just as much, or more, than I paid. Its fun to horsetrade, especially when you are good at it.

I don't even understand why people are willing to trade their time for dollars in the first place, when they turn around and waste it on all the shit that fills this planets landfills, and leaving all their lights on and electronic crap plugged in, watching tv paying cable company. If you have a sense of usefulness, this world is filled with things that come on the (dollar) cheap yet have much utility. Whatever floats your boat is right, I enjoy pissing away my extra dollars on travelling and vacationing, but that's just me

every penny I put into the lease I GET BACK!

It is also A TAX DEDUCTIBLE! So is the GAS!

my car lease does not devalue, my equity does not devalue.

EDVARD YOUR CARS ARE OVER 15 years old and probably WORTHLESS!

While I trade in and trade up, building equity and value.

I am building value by INVESTING IN MY LEASE!!!!!!!!

Your cars are deprecating and your original investment is now lost regardless of your low maintenance. At some point you will lose 100% of your investment.

Thedaytoday says

Again you refuse to answer my question. How much are your cars worth today? How much have you invested ?

The cars are worth maybe $5,000 total for both. But then again seeing as how I haven't had to shell out any money for payments, leases or whatnot, I instead invested that savings into various stocks and 401ks, etc which over time have yielded me anywhere from 5-11% annually. As far as credit, well there are far cheaper ways to obtain good credit. For example, I never actually owned credit cards but did buy a computer in college and took out a loan from the bank. I did the same thing when I bought my car way back in high school.

edvard2 says

The cars are worth maybe $5,000 total for both

how much did they cost!!!!! answer the questin

edvard2 says

As far as credit, well there are far cheaper ways to obtain good credit.

No we are discussing interest free leases

Thedaytoday says

Your cars are deprecating and your original investment is now lost regardless of your low maintenance. At some point you will lose 100% of your investment

They are not and were never "investments". Cars are not investments at all that is unless you are very good at investing in highly desirable classics.

Thanks you Jeff Bezos for starting this thread.
Has anyone been tempted by the 2013 Nissan Leaf? With the price cuts and tax credits it's sub $19k.
Thedaytoday makes a good point: you can't put a price on new car smell.

Thedaytoday says

how much did they cost!!!!! answer the questin

Sure, and no need to use 10,000 exclamation points. One was $11,000 and the other around $10,000. So $21,000 total. Spread out over around 20 years, that works out to roughly $1,000 a year, or $83.3333 per month. As you can see, no matter how you cut it the math works out heavily in my method.

Thedaytoday says

bob2356 says

Thedaytoday says

Nothing of value is simple. It took me a very long time to get what I wanted. But I was patient and demanding with the dealers and got my way.

NOTHING DOWN, NO INTEREST, MAXIMUM RESIDUAL ON TRADE IN!

And your monthly lease payment is how much?

$250 as I said.

I keep every penny of the equity on trade in and carry it over into the new lease.

How are you making equity off a lease? I lease...it is renting the car. The only way you can profit is if you agree to purchase from the leasing company for the residual, mark it up to retail, and sell to someone else, which I have done several times. Otherwise, you turn in the car.

As for the no maintenance costs, I have been leasing for 20+ years. There are a few brands out there that do this, but most don't. You are responsible for oil changes, tires, brakes, etc. Same with not getting a loaner unless it is major. And dont tell me Subaru does. I am looking at a 2014 Outback now and they never mentioned this to me.

For every penny I invest the government deducts it off my tax bill

For every penny I invest I retain at the end of the lease!!!!

after 4, 3yr leases the car is mine, brand new, zero finance, 100% deducted.

FREE FREE FREE!!!!

12 years I retain 100% value

You edvard have lost over 95% value like everyone else.Congrats.

and you get to drive a 15 years car. how nice.

so come 2017/2020 my car will be new, I would retain 100% of what I have invested and your cars will be CRUSHED!

EBGuy says

Thedaytoday makes a good point: you can't put a price on new car smell.

Yeah.... nuttin' like the lovely smell of out-gassing plastics and chemicals.

EBGuy says

Thanks you Jeff Bezos for starting this thread.

Has anyone been tempted by the 2013 Nissan Leaf? With the price cuts and tax credits it's sub $19k.

Thedaytoday makes a good point: you can't put a price on new car smell.

Im tempted to lease a new Volt. Under $300/month with $2500 down. That for a $40K car with no gas cost.

Thedaytoday says

For every penny I invest the government deducts it off my tax bill

For every penny I invest I retain at the end of the lease!!!!

after 4, 3yr leases the car is mine, brand new, zero finance, 100% deducted.

FREE FREE FREE!!!!

12 years I retain 100% value

You edvard have lost over 95% value like everyone else.Congrats.

You are still making payments that I am not. I'm not sure how to make this any more simple than that. But if leasing makes you pleased, then go for it. If everyone was like me the car makers would have gone under a long time ago.

Waitingtobuy says

EBGuy says

Thanks you Jeff Bezos for starting this thread.

Has anyone been tempted by the 2013 Nissan Leaf? With the price cuts and tax credits it's sub $19k.

Thedaytoday makes a good point: you can't put a price on new car smell.

Im tempted to lease a new Volt. Under $300/month with $2500 down. That for a $40K car with no gas cost.

That's probably a terrible idea.

Do the math, ask the dealer the residual. The volt will not help you maintain value. I would go look at the highest residual car to lease. It is a SUBARU! This is true. You get more, lower borrowing costs and higher trade ins.

A volt is a toy. Never by a first generation car. Never!

edvard2 says

Thedaytoday says

For every penny I invest the government deducts it off my tax bill

For every penny I invest I retain at the end of the lease!!!!

after 4, 3yr leases the car is mine, brand new, zero finance, 100% deducted.

FREE FREE FREE!!!!

12 years I retain 100% value

You edvard have lost over 95% value like everyone else.Congrats.

You are still making payments that I am not. I'm not sure how to make this any more simple than that. But if leasing makes you pleased, then go for it. If everyone was like me the car makers would have gone under a long time ago.

I make payments yes, congrats on figuring out how a lease works. Continue to ignore what I am saying. Every payment I make builds equity until I own in the car FREE!

In 10 years your toyotas will be 25 years old , how nice for you. While I continue to drive a brand new car year after year with no maintenance costs.

My 25k-27k will still be in my pocket and your will be at the DUMP!

edvard2 said: Yeah.... nuttin' like the lovely smell of out-gassing plastics and chemicals.
You can tell it hasn't affected his mental faculties.
I wonder is this type of thing is genetic? My dad bought his first brand new car when he was over seventy and I'll probably go down that path as well. It's so hard to buy new when you've got folks willing to take the initial depreciation hit.

IDDQD says

Thedaytoday says

Cars have become more expensive to run, maintain and hence people hold onto their car longer. Newer cars cost more and more to maintain by deisgn.

What costly maintenance are you talking about? Oil change intervals on current (post-2000) cars are much longer at 7.5K-30K vs 3-5K 20 years ago.

Spark plugs? First change at 100K+ in most newer cars.

Timing belt? 90-105K.

Timing chain? Good for the life of the car.

Air filter - 30-60K.

Auto trans fluid - lifetime (if you don't tow). Differential oil (if separate from transmission) - 60K.

Coolant - first change at 60-90K.

And so on and so forth. Basically you can drive new car off the lot and don't have any scheduled maintenance except oil changes until 30Kmiles. Or no maintenance at all if the car is Porsche with their 30K oil change intervals. ;)

Your point please?

Are you really saying cars have no maintenance costs? You must be in real estate. You also seem to be dismissing the fact I have no out of pocket expense year over year for my car.

The gas and payments are deductible and the payments build equity which I keep.

My car is an INVESTMENT is yours?

EBGuy says

you've got folks willing to take the initial depreciation hit.

Go talk to a Subaru dealer. I drive the highest residual vehicle in the market today. Lower finance costs and very high trade-in.

You will not lose if you negotiate a deal, SIMPLE.

Don't ever pay sticker.

Thedaytoday says

I make payments yes, congrats on figuring out how a lease works. Continue to ignore what I am saying. Every payment I make builds equity until I own in the car FREE!

In 10 years your toyotas will be 25 years old , how nice for you. While I continue to drive a brand new car year after year with no maintenance costs.

The angle that you are coming from is "if" I too were to buy a new car and continue to want to always have a new car. That is not the case with me. I simply bought and held onto them with the key notion of not having to pay for them anymore. That's the difference here: I don't see having a new car on a lease as a financial advantage because having a new car also means payments and out of pocket expenses that I do not have. Thus the value of my cars are irrelevant: The value they represent is the money I've saved not having any car payments.