patrick.net

Meccos says

i had to post the above twice cuz someeone keeps deleting

They did you a favor, and you should have been grateful, but your inability to admit error prevented you from seeing that.

Meccos says

Why you are so defensive about this?

Your opinion contrary to evidence is error, and you are the one defending it. Saying that certain practitioners of a profession (e.g. Homefool's pushers) are overpaid does not, in any way, imply hatred or dislike of everyone in that profession. But, in your inability to recognize even the possibility of your being in error, you do corroborate a stereotype about incompetent physicians. Note that I referred to incompetent physicians, not physicians in general.

Meccos says

you have been quite defensive

So when people prove you wrong, they are being "defensive" because your opinion is infallible. I am guessing you must have been recently elected to an office that I had not previously associated with the medical profession.

Meccos says

you have a fairly long history of negative comments on this forum about overpaid doctors....

Only because defensive posters like you deny such possibility could even exist, which generates a long history wasting time. I will add one entry to my fairly specific list of which doctors are overpaid: you. Whatever time you spent in medical school did not teach you the basic humility required to practice medicine, including especially the ability to admit when you are wrong.

CaptainShuddup says

He has an illusion that the "Telepromter" Obama sold him, he's afraid to actually read the bill, probably for the same reasons,

I really should visit your universe sometime. It seems very interesting. In fact, I am pretty much the ONLY one on this forum who has any fucking clue what's in the law. The rest of you are just ranting about nothing. The level of ignorance is astounding.

Homeboy says

I really should visit your universe sometime. It seems very interesting. In fact, I am pretty much the ONLY one on this forum who has any fucking clue what's in the law. The rest of you are just ranting about nothing. The level of ignorance is astounding.

Your level of ignorance is astonishing!

Listen Gobbels, repeating lies isn't going to work here. The facts are that Obamacare is a tax increase on everyone including people who make below a certain amount. If you are going to keep repeating that lie, even after I offer tangible examples, yeah, I'll keep on deleting them. Those by you and the one liners by your alias.

Meccos says

Its easy to dictate a policy when you have no skin in the game...

Pretty much what the liberals are doing, since most of them are the 47% that don't pay income taxes.

curious2 says

They did you a favor, and you should have been grateful, but your inability to admit error prevented you from seeing that.

Go talk to homecheese to get some of his antipsych meds.. i think you really need it.

curious2 says

Meccos, none of those comments conveys dislike (let alone hatred) of doctors in general, though Homefool's pushers are not worthy of the defense that you are now attempting to provide them.

But maybe it isn't their fault, maybe they were beaten about the head and neck by a stampede of unicorns, if that's your professional medical opinion how can it possibly be error?

Curious I find it odd that you get so defensive of the fact that I THINK you have a dislike for physicians. Why you are so defensive about this? The fact that you cant accept one persons opinion and go so far as to say one's opinion (based on observations) is an "error" leads to me think that you are either arrogant or.. or jsut arrogant.
The problem is that you have many previous posts in which you do post things to belittle physicians and the profession. Thats a fact. Otherwise you may want to consider paying some overpaid psychiatrist to put you the on antipsych meds you need to be on... better yet, have some non-licensed non-qualified phony as you would prefer...

curious2 says

Your opinion contrary to evidence is error

an opinion in regards to a personal feeling cannot be an error.

curious2 says

you are the one defending it.

um, no. i made a claim about the appearance of you disliking physicians and since then you have been quite defensive

curious2 says

Saying that certain practitioners of a profession (e.g. Homefool's pushers) are overpaid does not, in any way, imply hatred or dislike of everyone in that profession.

If it was simply just that one comment, I would agree. However you have a fairly long history of negative comments on this forum about overpaid doctors, monopolies on medical practice, doctors being drug pushers etc etc... which in totality leads me to my OPINION that you dislike physicians.

Curious the single fact that you are arguing about my OPINION is quite ridiculous and leads me to think that you cant see beyond your own thoughts...

curious2 says

So when people prove you wrong, they are being "defensive" because your opinion is infallible. I am guessing you must have been recently elected to an office that I had not previously associated with the medical profession.

Perhaps if you can actually prove me wrong I could reconsider. However do you deny that you have written numerous posts about overpaid doctors, monopolies in medical practices, doctors being drug pushers etc etc? Does not give a person some reason to believe you dislike physicians?

curious2 says

Only because defensive posters like you deny such possibility could even exist, which generates a long history wasting time. I will add one entry to my fairly specific list of which doctors are overpaid: you. Whatever time you spent in medical school did not teach you the basic humility required to practice medicine, including especially the ability to admit when you are wrong.

Yes I am a horrible physician. Unfortunately my patients do not think so, however I do not need to convince you since you clearly dislike physicians anyways. Oh and all the money I make... damn i dont even know what to do with it all....

curious2 says

So when people prove you wrong,

Perhaps if you can actually prove me wrong I could reconsider. However do you deny that you have written numerous posts about overpaid doctors, monopolies in medical practices, doctors being drug pushers etc etc? Does not give a person some reason to believe you dislike physicians?

curious2 says

I will add one entry to my fairly specific list of which doctors are overpaid: you. Whatever time you spent in medical school did not teach you the basic humility required to practice medicine.

Yes I am a horrible physician. Unfortunately my patients do not think so, however I do not need to convince you since you clearly dislike physicians anyways. Oh and all the money I make... damn i dont even know what to do with it all....

Curious i think your panties are in a bunch right now...

Meccos Please delete your duplicate post.

Unfortunately, a lot of people fit this category in the medical profession.

curious2 says

Whatever time you spent in medical school did not teach you the basic humility required to practice medicine, including especially the ability to admit when you are wrong.

Hes picking winners and losers. Only a medical system that has a lower chance of Malpractice suite will work. Keep the Lawyers out.

FYI, the US spend over $240B each year on Malpractice costs, but only $2B on Small Business Innovative Research for the NIH, Dept of Health, DOT, DOD. Yes that means on Lawyers who add no value get paid 220 X the technical R&D.

So why then are are health care costs so high. Thats the answers, and answers all the questions about "Why are health care cost so high in the US". Its the Lawyers d_ _ _ _ !

Entitlemented, your numbers are way off, and you don't cite any sources. Actual malpractice costs are one quarter of your number, 2% of total spending. The issue is a red herring, a false Republican talking point.

BTW, hospitals injure 20% of patients, including 100,000/year who die from nosocomial infections.

Take care.

zzyzzx says

Meccos Please delete your duplicate post.

Have curious delete them... he keeps flagging my posts as spam, getting them deleted.

Email from Patrick:

"He was marking all your comments as spam. I unmarked them so they are visible again, and I took that ability away from him, which he got in an automated way just by being a long-time user of Patrick.net.

Let me know if he manages to spam any more of your comments. Thanks!"

Meccos says

Have curious delete them... he keeps flagging my posts as spam, getting them deleted.

Incorrect. I did not flag any of your posts as spam.

curious2 says

Meccos says

Have curious delete them... he keeps flagging my posts as spam, getting them deleted.

Incorrect. I did not flag any of your posts as spam.

Funny the email from patrick states otherwise... I suppose patrick is a liar...

curious2 says

Entitlemented, your numbers are way off, and you don't cite any sources. Actual malpractice costs are one quarter of your number, 2% of total spending

Even if it is that low, it's still 2.4% that we can't continue to throw away. It's welfare for lawyers.

zzyzzx says

all the extra stuff doctors do avoid lawsuits

That myth has been debunked at length including on this forum. Long story short, "tort reform" (taking away injured patients' right to sue for malpractice) actually increases costs because entrepreneurial doctors take advantage and cause more injuries. BTW, the 2% includes the total amount, i.e. including what the patients received, including their medical costs to treat their nosocomial infections and malpractice-related injuries, e.g. if the hospital cuts off the wrong leg and then you need a prosthesis which costs $.

Meccos says

Email from Patrick:

"He was marking all your comments as spam. I unmarked them so they are visible again, and I took that ability away from him, which he got in an automated way just by being a long-time user of Patrick.net.

Let me know if he manages to spam any more of your comments. Thanks!"

Meccos says

I suppose patrick is a liar...

@Patrick, if you have time, please illuminate Meccos. I have tried, but he does not believe me.

curious2 says

zzyzzx says

all the extra stuff doctors do avoid lawsuits

That myth has been debunked at length including on this forum. Long story short, "tort reform" (taking away plaintiffs' right to sue for malpractice) actually increases costs because entrepreneurial doctors take advantage and cause more injuries.

wrong. defensive medicine is practiced every day and there is a cost to this.

Also I would love to see evidence to prove that tort reform increases costs because "entrepreneurial doctors take advantage and cause more injuries". Regardless of tort reform, malpractice cases are constantly getting get trialed or settled, which ruins physicians professionally and financially, leaving really no reason for these doctors to "take advantage and cause more injury" as you suggest. Injuries will always happen unfortunately...

curious2 says

Meccos says

Email from Patrick:

"He was marking all your comments as spam. I unmarked them so they are visible again, and I took that ability away from him, which he got in an automated way just by being a long-time user of Patrick.net.

Let me know if he manages to spam any more of your comments. Thanks!"

Meccos says

I suppose patrick is a liar...

@Patrick, if you have time, please illuminate Meccos. I have tried, but he does not believe me.

Ok curious,

SO the random email I receive from Patrick Titled "Sorry about Curious2"
which is copied in the previous post is something I just made up...

Meccos says

I would love to see evidence....

Just follow the links. That's why I provide links. Unlike you.

curious2 says

Meccos says

I would love to see evidence....

Just follow the links. That's why I provide links. Unlike you.

Curious unfortunately the links you post do not answer the questions which I specifically asked. Read my post and please respond with evidence to the specific comment you made.

Meccos says

Curious unfortunately the links you post do not answer the questions which I specifically asked.

What were your questions? I don't see any question marks, only false statements that were refuted in the linked articles.

curious2 says

Meccos says

Curious unfortunately the links you post do not answer the questions which I specifically asked.

What were your questions? I don't see any question marks, only false statements that were refuted in the linked articles.

Here is my question:
Meccos says

Also I would love to see evidence to prove that tort reform increases costs because "entrepreneurial doctors take advantage and cause more injuries". Regardless of tort reform, malpractice cases are constantly getting get trialed or settled, which ruins physicians professionally and financially, leaving really no reason for these doctors to "take advantage and cause more injury" as you suggest. Injuries will always happen unfortunately...

Again no question marks, follow the links to see the report.

Curious...
the links you provide mainly talk about unethical physicians who do procedures unnecessarily to make money. The truth is that you will find people like these in any industry. However some physicians being unethical and the cost of defensive medicine are completely separate issues, which you seem to blur. Unfortunately there will always be physicians who are unethical. However, make no mistake, the threat of malpractice DOES change practices of HONEST physicians and WILL increase costs.

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=416067

curious2 says

Again no question marks, follow the links to see the report.

again copped out on answering an obvious question regardless of whether there is a punctuation point or not.

From one of the linked articles: "El Paso and McAllen function under the same Texas malpractice laws that capped malpractice awards in 2003. As doctors there noted to me, premiums have gone down substantially, reflecting the major drop in lawsuits. And even if McAllen doctors were especially fearful of lawsuits, it is hard to imagine that “defensive medicine” would lead to McAllen’s vastly greater number of pacemaker insertions, knee replacements, carotid operations, coronary artery stents, or home-nursing visits. Certainly the doctors I spoke to there did not think lawsuit fears affect their decisions for surgical therapies and other such interventions."

curious2 says

From one of the linked articles: "El Paso and McAllen function under the same Texas malpractice laws that capped malpractice awards in 2003. As doctors there noted to me, premiums have gone down substantially, reflecting the major drop in lawsuits. And even if McAllen doctors were especially fearful of lawsuits, it is hard to imagine that “defensive medicine” would lead to McAllen’s vastly greater number of pacemaker insertions, knee replacements, carotid operations, coronary artery stents, or home-nursing visits. Certainly the doctors I spoke to there did not think lawsuit fears affect their decisions for surgical therapies and other such interventions."

Again, you blur the lines of dishonest physicians who increase medical costs by unnecessary procedure with the actual cost of defensive medicine. I am not saying that some physicians dont this... all I am saying is that there are TONS of other HONEST physicians who will order extra tests which eventually increase medical costs. You seem to think that there is no distinction here.

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=416067

should provide some evidence to back my claim.

Curious I will give you another example of how defensive medicine costs money...

Millions of dollars each year are spent on unnecessary tests like MRI's and blood work. Contrary to the article you linked, physicians who order these tests cannot financially benefit due to federal laws that prohibit the prescirbing physician having ownership of the diagnostic centers. These tests are ordered to avoid lawsuits... yet the physicians do not benefit financially in these cases. This is an unnecessary added costs clear and simple.

Meccos says

should provide some evidence to back my claim.

It doesn't. It's a mail-in survey with a 50% response rate asking about physicians in general, not respondents' own personal behavior. Essentially they asked, "Do you agree with the Republican talking point repeated endlessly on TV and elsewhere," half said yes.

BTW, what area of medicine do you practice, and do you order up extra tests and procedures as defensive medicine?

curious2 says

Meccos says

should provide some evidence to back my claim.

It doesn't. It's a mail-in survey with a 50% response rate asking about physicians in general, not respondents' own personal behavior. Essentially they asked, "Do you agree with the Republican talking point repeated endlessly in the evening news," half said yes.

BTW, what area of medicine do you practice, and do you order up extra tests and procedures as defensive medicine?

No it was a simple question asked to hundreds of physicians from different specialities from many different regions. The simple question was "Do doctors order more tests and procedures than patients need to protect themselves against malpractice suits"

Unfortunately, you completely misread the article. ABout 50% responded back to the survey. However of thsoe that responded back, 91% believed they ordered more test and procedures to protect themselves...

Please read more carefully before you respond. makes you look silly

Meccos says

91% believed they....

Please check again your use of the word "they." The survey asked respondents to speculate about the behavior of physicians in general, it did not ask them to report their own experience.

Which brings me back to my question, which you have not answered. What area of medicine do you practice, and do you order up extra tests and procedures as defensive medicine?

curious2 says

BTW, what area of medicine do you practice, and do you order up extra tests and procedures as defensive medicine?

Yes, me and every one of my colleagues have admitted to ordering things unnecessarily. Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if EVERY single physician in this country has done this. Rather I would be surprised if one physician has NEVER done this.

Almost always, the decision to do this is based on the patient. You may never know, but many patients often demand these tests and even THREATEN lawsuits...

curious2 says

Please check again your use of the word "they." The survey asked respondents to speculate about the behavior of physicians in general, it did not ask them to report their own experience.

Which brings me back to my question, which you have not answered. What area of medicine do you practice, and do you order up extra tests and procedures as defensive medicine?

They are "physicians" and since all these people are physicians, i wrote "they". What is the point of even commenting on this? If you have nothing better to say, just dont say it. Distraction is pointless.

Also give me more than 3 minutes to respond... why so anxious for my responses?