patrick.net

indigenous says

Don't make the mistake that a lower marginal tax rate means less revenue, it actually equates to a higher revenue because of more commerce being encouraged.

This is such total bullshit. IT's only true if tax rates are high enough to prohibit business before the reduction, and they would probably need to be way too high, if lowering rates actually increased revenue.

This is the biggest fucking myth on the right. Gee, I can't imagine why they would hold that to be true ?

Is it by any chance because if they say that, it's a rationalization for lowering their taxes ?

Even Laffer claimed a optimal level for taxes. He didn't suggest that even when taxes are relatively low, that you could increase revenues by lowering rates.

marcus says

ven Laffer claimed a optimal level for taxes.

Oh that is right he is one of the few who thinks Brown is not something that should be flushed. I disagree.

The U.S. does have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. I know you don't concern yourself with this, but this is related to jobs going off shore.

Marcus your "I always vote the party line" atomaton

i travel a lot and have noticed in recent decades that the middle class in many other countries has surpassed us, only my opinion, but more important in what i see is that even the poor in other countries are better off than americans by the fact they have a more solid family unit. i compare the poor girl selling chicklets with her loving mother watching only 10 feet away, to the american child with one parent listening to crap from an iPod while pushing there nose deeper into a smart phone while talking filth. granted this is not all kids here, but they pool is growing. and it is a pool of pooh.

marcus says

This is such total bullshit. IT's only true if tax rates are high enough to prohibit business before the reduction, and they would probably need to be way too high, if lowering rates actually increased revenue.

lower taxes...
greater consumption of capital equipment and production of capital equipment, thus higher employment and higher incomes.. more taxes. It does work.. your a living example of it as your fat greasy finders tap on that keyboard... ask yourself how did that happen ?

thomaswong.1986 says

ask yourself

That ain't gunna happen

dublin hillz says

People who oppose unions are more dangerous than al qaeda to an american middle class

The unions did themself in because they ignored global competition. Other parties opposing unions had nothing to do with it. Go cry over your Toyota and Sony ...

casandra says

i travel a lot and have noticed in recent decades that the middle class in many other countries has surpassed us, only my opinion,

Care to give us some facts with your anecdotal?

indigenous says

The U.S. does have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

This is misleading, because they don't pay it.

indigenous says

Marcus your "I always vote the party line" atomaton

Have you ever heard about the pot and the kettle ? (and I assume you meant "you're an")

Here, let me educate you about the difference between stutory and effective corporate tax rates.

marcus says

This is misleading, because they don't pay it.

Could you be anymore general? Show us some facts.

The truth is the consumer pays it.

Investment capital goes where it is treated best which is not here.

like i said just my opinion. revisiting countries i have once seen, i notice more people eating out and spending money more than they used to in more upscale settings. here i see just the opposite. more here going to fast food instead of typical middle class restaurants like olive garden and such. again just my opinion from my simple observances; no numbers to crunch, no facts.

marcus says

Here, let me educate you about the difference between stutory and effective corporate tax rates.

effective corporate tax rates on GAAP disclosed numbers or undisclosed IRS tax return ? There is a difference.. The IRS ignores GAAP numbers and has its own way of figuring taxable income. Depreciation, non-taxable income, limited expenses, foreign taxes paid, compensation deduction, etc etc.

You can throw all the GAAP numbers away, because they are not used.

At the end of the day.. all corporations "are liable" at the statutory rates. Infact they pay the amounts in quarterly payments. Long long before individuals pay theirs.

marcus says

indigenous says

Marcus your "I always vote the party line" atomaton

Have you ever heard about the pot and the kettle ? (and I assume you meant "you're an")

Here, let me educate you about the difference between stutory and effective corporate tax rates.

That is part of your problem you assume, I meant your. So you admit to being an automaton? But saying that is tautology isn't it, as you work for the government.

Regarding your graph the difference would also apply to other countries. Which still causes investment capital to go where it is treated best.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/06/most-profitable-corporations-tax-rate_n_1746817.html

http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2013/04/the_us_continues_to_be_one_of_the_least_taxed_of_the_developed_countries.php#.UcOiV_lkw1L

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/real_tax_rates_plummet/

oh, having taught ESL for 10 years i did notice one interesting change. in my first few years the students, all adult from south america and mexico were very excited to be here. most begin taking ESL classes when the kids move on and they have time for themselves (females). the last few years i taught, these females were not happy here in the USA, and were saying how they were planning on going back to where they came from because they felt they would have a better life back home. my last year of teaching was in 2006.

marcus says

ttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/06/most-profitable-corporations-tax-rate_n_1746817.html

http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2013/04/the_us_continues_to_be_one_of_the_least_taxed_of_the_developed_countries.php#.UcOiV_lkw1L

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/real_tax_rates_plummet/

disclosed GAAP numbers or undisclosed IRS tax returns ? which taxable income are we talking about... journalists are not the experts in this field.

casandra says

like i said just my opinion.

It would seem likely that your observations would coincide with government overreach in this country.

casandra says

were saying how they were planning on going back to where they came from because they felt they would have a better life back home. my last year of teaching was in 2006.

That is interesting. I wonder what they would say today?

Is the OECD journalists ?

In 1979, the U.S. had the 16th highest taxes as a percentage of GDP, out of 24 countries at that time.

In 2010, the U.S. had the 32nd highest taxes as a percentage of GDP, out of 34 OECD countries.

http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2013/04/the_us_continues_to_be_one_of_the_least_taxed_of_the_developed_countries.php#.UcOkXvlkw1L

IT's pretty amazing that we are the worlds policeman, conducting multiple wars with the 32nd highest taxes as a percentage of gdp. I guess we are the only ones who have figured out how to get more with lower rates.

But no, oops. That's actual tax revenues collected as a percentage of gdp.

marcus says

Is the OECD journalists ?

Ok Marcus you have somewhat (although I don't see how it gets from 39 to 24.8, which does not match your Goldman graph above) convinced me the taxes are not the issue.

What about the regulations?

What about the spending?

And most of all what Obama at the helm does to the confidence of the investors? Which turn decide to invest in the countries casandra speaks of.

marcus says

IT's pretty amazing that we are the worlds policeman, conducting multiple wars with the 32nd highest taxes as a percentage of gdp. I guess we are the only ones who have figured out how to get more with lower rates.

But no, oops. That's actual tax revenues collected as a percentage of gdp.

It is called borrowing. Where have you been?

marcus says

Is the OECD journalists ?

They too should be taken out back and shot...

US Corporations also pay foreign income taxes.. not to mention plenty of foreign employer payroll and business taxes... the difference between in foreign tax and US statutory is also paid to the US government. The US Govt gets its every nickle it can.

from the article...

"As the graph to the right illustrates, in 2010, the total (federal, state and local) tax revenue collected in the U.S. was equal to 24.8 percent of the U.S.’s GDP."

The US GDP includes all Domestic and exported International Sales..

"GDP defined ... Gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time"

Much of our products are exported to foreign markets, and net taxable earnings are taxed by foreign governments. And some are pretty hefty.

So back to your... "federal, state and local tax" should also include foreign taxes paid on that global taxable income (GDP).

Therefore the rates are actually much higher. ... taken them to the back and shoot em!

thomaswong.1986 says

Much of our products are exported to foreign markets, and net taxable earnings are taxed by foreign governments. And some are pretty hefty.

So back to your... "federal, state and local tax" should also include foreign taxes paid on that global taxable income.

Ok but would that not also apply to other countries as well or are we the only one without tariffs?

thomaswong.1986 says

The US GDP includes all Domestic and exported International Sales..

Less imports...

I would say that more that the Corporate tax rate change, with loopholes, and outsourcing, the import/export imbalance a key driving force behind our middle class decline.

The other source of all class decline (lower, middle, upper) is due to the ponzi scheme CRA initiated housing fraud.

Most other things are low coefficient of causation.

thomaswong.1986 says

greater consumption of capital equipment and production of capital equipment, thus higher employment and higher incomes.. more taxes

Then how come it didn't work when your boy Bush II enacted his cuts?

indigenous says

The U.S. does have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Yet corporate profits are at record-breaking highs, but corporate taxes are at a 40-year low. If you look at the ACTUAL amount corporations pay in taxes after loopholes, deductions etc. instead of the 35% that’s on paper, the U.S. has the third lowest corporate tax rate among developed nations at just 12.1%

The U.S. also gets significantly less in revenue from corporate taxes than other countries

sbh says

indigenous says

What about the spending?

It's an addiction seen in both parties.

Agreed

sbh says

Obama at the helm

Spending funded through taxation

No it is spending through borrowing

sbh says

Which is the source of spending when Republicans are at the helm.

I'm not defending either side of the same coin.

finehoe says

Yet corporate profits are at record-breaking highs, but corporate taxes are at a 40-year low. If you look at the ACTUAL amount corporations pay in taxes after loopholes, deductions etc. instead of the 35% that’s on paper, the U.S. has the third lowest corporate tax rate among developed nations at just 12.1%

The U.S. also gets significantly less in revenue from corporate taxes than other countries

12% is about half of the amount of the graph Marcus put up.

The jury is out on that I don't know. Thomaswong points out that the corporations pay taxes in foreign countries as well.

sbh says

indigenous says

sbh says

Obama at the helm

Spending funded through taxation

No it is spending through borrowing

Only in the wake of the 2008 crash, an exogenous event that screwed up the context of the tax and spend model that probably would have obtained otherwise. And then, suddenly, debt and deficits do matter to Republicans. Who knew they paid attention to such matters? Which is not to say we don't have a spending problem in Washington and main street. We sure as hell do.

The point I'm making is that O's spending goes into perpetuity, this makes investors skiddish same as FDR with same result

dublin hillz says

People who oppose unions are more dangerous than al qaeda to an american middle class member from standpoint of realistic damage that they can inflict on the individual over the course of their lifespan.

Post of the week.

indigenous says

this makes investors skiddish same as FDR with same result

Yes, the years after FDR were an economic nightmare.

I find it hard to believe that Spain and Italy rank higher than the US. Kuwait, I expected.

thunderlips11 says

indigenous says

this makes investors skiddish same as FDR with same result

Yes, the years after FDR were an economic nightmare.

Funny stuff. The Keynesian s predicted a worse economy after the war if the government spending wasn't kept up. Fortunately Truman was not as evil as FDR and saw through the Keynesian bullshit. And the lack of government meddling is exactly what gave investors the incentive to create the post war economy. Fact is the only thing FDR caused was the great depression which was his and the FED's handiwork and only theirs.

indigenous says

12% is about half of the amount of the graph Marcus put up.

The jury is out on that I don't know. Thomaswong points out that the corporations pay taxes in foreign countries as well.

Thomaswrong knows less about taxes than my cat. US taxes owed are the difference between the US tax amount and the foreign tax amount if the US tax amount is higher. Like indiviiduals corporations get credit for taxes paid overseas against their US tax bill. They don't pay foreign taxes then pay US taxes on top of that.

The 12% number like the 29% number or any other number depends on what you call "taxes". Exxon recently put up a bunch of ads that they paid something like $57 billion in taxes. Wow, that's a lot. Except Exxon is calling all it's oil field leases taxes. That's absurd, leases are operating expenses. That would be like McDonalds calling buying potatoes and beef taxes if they bought from the government. The actual taxes Exxon paid to the US government was $1.5 billion or 2%. All large corporations play the same semantic games. Some of the biggest corporations complaining the loudest about taxes (think GE) have actually gotten tax rebates rather than paying taxes. I notice that none of the multinationals are pulling up stakes and actually moving away from the onerous US taxes. What they actually are doing is taking advantage of all the benefits (of which there are many) of being a US based corporation without paying for it.

What large multinationals are doing is piling up huge amounts of cash overseas and lobbying for yet another profit repatriation tax holiday. After all if those profits were brought back to the US they could be invested creating new industry and jobs, right? Well not exactly, the last tax holiday in 2004 something like 90% of the repatriated profits went out as dividends and stock buybacks. The companies that repatriated profits saved 92 billion in taxes and cut 591,000 jobs in the 3 years after 2004. Shall we do it again?

The idea of overseas cash is also absurd. It's in dollar denominated accounts and most of it is used to buy US equities. It's not sitting in the Bahama's in gold coins. The "cash" is also frequently back door repatriated by using it for short term loans, stock buybacks, and acquisitions, The IRS has been very lax at looking into this.

Multinationals are increasingly resorting to stateless profits. Apple is the poster child of this. They shift profits around jurisdiction to jurisdiction finding the loopholes in each one that lets them avoid taxes. Does anyone other than the IRS truly believe that the Apple subsidy in Ireland actually owns all of Apples intellectual property? Software developed in the US? On paper it does, so Apple pays almost no taxes on selling it anywhere. It's perfectly legal.

indigenous says

Fact is the only thing FDR caused was the great depression which was his and the FED's handiwork and only theirs.

The great depression started with the stock market crash of Oct 29th 1929. The lowest point was late 1932. FDR took office March 4th 1933. Funny things those facts.

robertoaribas says

Ok, nearly 4 years of job gains, a plummeting federal deficit, vastly increased stability in the financial sector, rapidly approaching energy independence...

I don't call 1 trillion, 1 trillion, 1 trillion, 700 billion "plummeting", I don't see any increased stability in the financial sector. Energy independence (not) has a lot to do with fracking and nothing to do with Obama.