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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Neither are cannibalism or hunter-gatherer societies.

Finally, a silver lining to America's obesity epidemic! Or should I say a fat lining? Either way, keep eating up porkies. Each of you should be able to feed a family of cannibals for a week.

Dan8267 says

an exercise for you Shrek. Sincerely write down in this forum ten

I'll do it, because I'd like to see your list.

1) Bush's intellectual inferiority.
2) Allowing us to be duped into the Iraq war
3) Out of control spending combined with absurd tax cuts.
4) Letting Cheney be President for at least 3 ys.
5) Continuing the policies which allowed the RE bubble to inflate.
6) Failure to properly address Katrina.
7) TARP. The banks and auto makers would have been replaced by more completive entities.
8) His tax policy which has made the Reagan wealth transfers of the 80s look petty.
9) Allowing the FBI to use Carnivore and wiretap w/o cause.
10) Having no plan for Iraq after winning the initial conflict.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Dan8267 says

an exercise for you Shrek. Sincerely write down in this forum ten

I'll do it, because I'd like to see your list.

1) Bush's intellectual inferiority.

2) Allowing us to be duped into the Iraq war

3) Out of control spending combined with absurd tax cuts.

4) Letting Cheney be President for at least 3 ys.

5) Continuing the policies which allowed the RE bubble to inflate.

6) Failure to properly address Katrina.

7) TARP. The banks and auto makers would have been replaced by more completive entities.

8) His tax policy which has made the Reagan wealth transfers of the 80s look petty.

9) Allowing the FBI to use Carnivore and wiretap w/o cause.

10) Having no plan for Iraq after winning the initial conflict.

11) Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget

12) Not allowing the government to negotiate drug prices for medicare part d patients

Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget, is that anything like adding billions in unfinded healthcare entitlements when nearly half the country was against it without specifying any way to pay for it?

Drink your veggies daily and put the docs in economy cars. Premiums will follow. Shut up and drink.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Dan8267 says

an exercise for you Shrek. Sincerely write down in this forum ten

I'll do it, because I'd like to see your list.

1) Bush's intellectual inferiority.

2) Allowing us to be duped into the Iraq war

3) Out of control spending combined with absurd tax cuts.

4) Letting Cheney be President for at least 3 ys.

5) Continuing the policies which allowed the RE bubble to inflate.

6) Failure to properly address Katrina.

7) TARP. The banks and auto makers would have been replaced by more completive entities.

8) His tax policy which has made the Reagan wealth transfers of the 80s look petty.

9) Allowing the FBI to use Carnivore and wiretap w/o cause.

10) Having no plan for Iraq after winning the initial conflict.

No offense but....

The FBI was using Carnivore during the 1990's. It actually is a old program today and no longer in use.
it operated for three years under Clinton and ended in '05 under Bush
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)

#10 that's true..infact we didn't even know what to do afterward for about two years.

#6 Hurricane Betsy already occurred in the 1960's. Rep Tauzin predicted Katrina nearly five years prior. Did Katrina look like a mess? Yes. Could it have been worse? Yup. The history of the area fortified against flooding from the Mississipi river due to commercial interest rather than the gulf.
Also silt eventually flowed outward causing the city to sink..actual government actions caused this. It was never originally six feet under sea level.
How can any place withstand 10 inches of rain?

To pin this all on bush is a bit misleading to say the least. There was no way the government could have prevented all the damage. It wasn't so much the wind but rather the water damage. I've heard allegations that the levies did hold against the wind but detached floating oil rigs slammed into them..hard to stop those. It was ironic that older technologies were used (ham radios) because cell towers would not work.

#5 The president does not have the power to raise or lower interest rates. Robosigning goes back around 15 years if not longer. That would be like saying Clinton should have prevented the dot com crash from happening by authorizing Harvey Pitt to audit each and every IPO.

#2 Iraq didn't end from his father. The USA and UK bombed Iraq on a weekly basis for around eight years under Clinton. Just because it wasn't featured on tv doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Besides where is the anti war movement today? There's probably more people in clubs for the Coleco Adam! The anti war movement was really a anti bush movement. Most of the left could care less about what the president does as long as he's a democrat. We've bombed libya, gone into pakistan, sent a "surge" to afganistan, covert war in Yemen etc. If people only protest when ground troops are sent that's a pretty poor ethical policy..bombing runs and air wars are exempt...

I once got into an argument with democrat delegate (she had a sweater from the '96 convention). I asked her if bombing people was a act of war and she said no. Then I asked if pearl harbor was a act of war..again she said no.

#1 I can't exactly say that intelligence equals performance in the white house. Supposedly Carter has a genius IQ (140+). Bush and Gore were 2.0GPA students for their undergrads.

mdovell says

To pin this all on bush is a bit misleading to say the least. There was no way the government could have prevented all the damage.

The *response* was the point, not the prevention.

The president does not have the power to raise or lower interest rates. Robosigning goes back around 15 years if not longer. That would be like saying Clinton should have prevented the dot com crash from happening by authorizing Harvey Pitt to audit each and every IPO.

The boom (2002-2004) was caused by falling interest rates but the *bubble* (2004-2006) was largely caused by new policy of the administration.

Increased 80/20 loans, liar loans, interest-only loans, teaser rate loans, negative-am loans, these were all innovations that let the free market fuck itself in just a few short years.

The Administration deregulated Wall Street to enable a lot of this on the back-end. Pulled FBI resources from financial enforcement to anti-terrorism.

But nice try defending the undefensible.

Besides where is the anti war movement today? There's probably more people in clubs for the Coleco Adam! The anti war movement was really a anti bush movement. Most of the left could care less about what the president does as long as he's a democrat. We've bombed libya, gone into pakistan, sent a "surge" to afganistan, covert war in Yemen etc.

What a crap argument. The anti-war movement wasn't strong enough to stop the war so it's too fucking late now. We were protesting to stop the damage, now the damage has been done so there's no point protesting.

Plus we're out of Iraq for the most part. Afghanistan is a different war and is harder to get out. If we keep fucking things up there protests will happen again, but there is a timetable to disengage and that keeps most people happy.

If people only protest when ground troops are sent that's a pretty poor ethical policy..bombing runs and air wars are exempt...

That's some industrial-grade bullshit right there. Don't tell me how to think, clown.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Dan8267 says

an exercise for you Shrek. Sincerely write down in this forum ten

I'll do it, because I'd like to see your list.

1) Bush's intellectual inferiority.

2) Allowing us to be duped into the Iraq war

3) Out of control spending combined with absurd tax cuts.

4) Letting Cheney be President for at least 3 ys.

5) Continuing the policies which allowed the RE bubble to inflate.

6) Failure to properly address Katrina.

7) TARP. The banks and auto makers would have been replaced by more completive entities.

8) His tax policy which has made the Reagan wealth transfers of the 80s look petty.

9) Allowing the FBI to use Carnivore and wiretap w/o cause.

10) Having no plan for Iraq after winning the initial conflict.

Great TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom, you put me in a conundrum. On one hand, I don’t want to reward Shrek with the list until he’s admitted to 10 things that suck about Bush. It’s kind of like training a dog. You don’t give it the treat unless it learns a lesson. On the other hand, my sense of fairness wants me to provide the list since at least someone admitted to Bush sucking and is probably not an Obama supporter since a supporter wouldn’t call this hand. I guess I’ll give this one to Shrek for free.

1. Obama promised to close Guantanamo Bay as soon as he took office. He kept it open. This makes him as responsible for the atrocities committed there as Bush is.

2. When Obama finally ended torture at Gitmo, he continued international extradition, which is just code for outsourcing torture. He should be tried as a war criminal for this, too.

3. Obama has ordered the assignation of U.S. citizens. Today, both The New York Times and The Washington Post confirm that the Obama White House has now expressly authorized the CIA to kill al-Alwaki no matter where he is found, no matter his distance from a battlefield. Article No matter what you think of al-Alwaki, every person especially a U.S. citizen is entitled to a fair trial before execution. Obama is guilty of attempted first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. What is even scarier is that our government now has a list of citizens it wants to execute. We don't know who's on the list, but we know it's more than just one person.

4. Obama failed to bring charges against the Bush/Cheney administration, thereby condoning the crimes against humanity committed by that administration. At least Kucinich had the balls to say he would do that if elected.

5. Obama has murdered hundreds of innocent civilians in drone attacks including children accomplishing only deteriorations of relationships with Pakistan and other Middle Eastern nations.

6. Obama bailed out the banks just like Bush did, but even more so.

7. Obama appointed bankers from JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs to regulate the banking industry. Here and here. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house...

8. Obama allowed the public option to be dropped from debate on health care despite the fact that it was one of only two actual pieces of reform in any proposed legislation and had popular support.

9. Obama also dropped the single payer reform in health care, the other only actual piece of reform.

10. Obama caved on letting the "temporary" Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest 1% to expire, thereby continuing the destruction of the middle class and enhancing the already ridiculous ultraRich-middleClass gap.

You can chuck up the second half of the list to Obama just being a typically crappy politician, but the first five items are capital offenses. I think I've made the case that both Bush and Obama are evil, and largely for the exact same reasons. Have you noticed that the Republicans and Fox News never bash Obama on any of the first five items on my list? It's because they support those items.

Dan, I appreciate your descision to post your list. I don't frequnet these boards often, but I didn't think Shrek would post his list.

As a formerly pragmatic centrist, I am always curious when I run across someone who might have a non-koolaid effected PoV. I think you are disappointed because O didn't follow through with a lot of his promises, which I do see as a major professional flaw. Not entirely differnet from how Clinton appealed to the democratic party and then bailed on much of what he promised, which makes him a true politcal animal.

While his hand has been forced, I find his descisions on economic policy to be his most disappointing failure.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

I think you are disappointed because O didn't follow through with a lot of his promises

Not quite. We all expect politicians to make empty promises. So failing to fulfill campaign promises hardly distinguishes Obama from every other president, or every other politician for that matter, that came before him.

And although I greatly disagree with Obama's handling of the housing bubble, the economy, regulation of banks, and other economic issues, these political disagreements are not nearly justification for calling Obama evil. Foolish perhaps. Wrong, sure. But definitely not evil.

What makes me use the term "evil" to describe Obama -- and yes, I use the word sparingly since it is a very strong position -- are items #1 through 5. There is no refuting the facts about these points. What astonishes me is that not everyone in the public is up in arms about things that are down-right immoral, unethical, and scary. Each of those five points is a deal killer to me, and I don't get why they aren't deal killers to other people.

Is the value of human life so minimal that these crimes are considered misdemeanors? I cannot imagine Americans from the turn of the 20th century tolerating such atrocities. Why do 21st century Americans tolerate them?

My only conjecture is that people think "at least he's not a Republican; they would do worse". And unfortunately, I have to agree. Rick Perry has killed hundreds of people as a mere governor and he was cheered for doing so. He'd probably kill millions as president. Still, it's sad we have to choose between the lesser of two evils when both evils are great.

Dan8267 says

What astonishes me is that not everyone in the public is up in arms about things that are down-right immoral, unethical, and scary.

That gets to where I have a titanic problem with the main stream media which I feel mostly has a liberal lean, but the right wing outlets are no different. They would never put a turd in the punch bowl and risk poisioning the programming of their sheeple.

And truthfully, its the same thing on the far right, who would rather maintain control of the party with an iron fist, even if it means losing the election by putting forth a candidate from the vein of Palin, Huckabee or Bachmann.

The pendulum has swung far right, then it came back and went far left. I wish we could bring it closer to center but it will probably swing far right again.

on point 5, yeah, we need to get out of Afghanistan. How can you even expect change when the bad guys get to refit and retrain on the other side of a border. Drone attacks will change nothing on the other side of the border except to piss people off. We can't be chasing extremists across every countries border and that's exactly what would be needed. These people have no borders, they have a philosophy that trancends borders.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget, is that anything like adding billions in unfinded healthcare entitlements when nearly half the country was against it without specifying any way to pay for it?

If you are talking about what you call "Obamacare", its not off-budget. Just because you don't like it, and even if you don't think the plan to pay for it will work, doesn't make it off budget. Bush didn't even pretend to find a way to pay for Iraq, Afghanistan, or Medicare part D. And you conservatives marched like lemmings to push it through.

Correction to my post, item #2 on the list: international extradition --> extraordinary rendition

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget, is that anything like adding billions in unfinded healthcare entitlements when nearly half the country was against it without specifying any way to pay for it?

Please explain this to Shrek. Maybe he'll listen to you.

Truthplease says

The pendulum has swung far right, then it came back and went far left. I wish we could bring it closer to center but it will probably swing far right again.

What we really need is for the pendulum to swing forward, not left or right. The idea that politics is one dimensional, that only the left and the right exist, is a false dichotomy.

There are many other choices orthogonal to the left-right line defined by the Democrats and Republicans. A much better, albeit still lousy, model is the two-dimensional political space defined by social and economic liberties show at The Political Compass. Usually this 2D space is rotated 45 degrees so that the left-right Dem/Repub line is shown horizontally.

Still better would be large dimensional models that include axes such as

1. Level of individuality tolerated vs social conformity. E.g. nudism rights vs decency laws.
2. Amount of personhood assigned to corporations.
3. Degree of socialization vs privatization.
4. Level of privileges afforded to government agents. E.g., what can cops do that ordinary citizens can't.
5. Level of privacy rights for individuals.
6. Level of privacy rights for government agents and agencies.
7. Level of privacy rights for corporations.
8. Tendency to choose peace or war in international affairs.
9. Level of foresightedness. I.e., tendency to prioritize either immediate needs or long-term needs over the other.
10. Distribution of decision making. I.e., should experts be making the decisions or should the public have that power.

And this is just what I can think of off the top of my head.

#3 : As Greenwald points out, it's not just that the President can designate a US citizen for assassination, it's that He can do so without any checks or balances or due process.

Not only do we not know who is on the list, chances are many people on the list don't know they're on it. Even if there was due process, how do you file suit to get yourself off a list if you don't even know you're on?!

thunderlips11 says

how do you file suit to get yourself off a list if you don't even know you're on?!

More importantly, how do you file suit to get off the list when they've already killed you?

bdrasin says

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget, is that anything like adding billions in unfinded healthcare entitlements when nearly half the country was against it without specifying any way to pay for it?

If you are talking about what you call "Obamacare", its not off-budget. Just because you don't like it, and even if you don't think the plan to pay for it will work, doesn't make it off budget. Bush didn't even pretend to find a way to pay for Iraq, Afghanistan, or Medicare part D. And you conservatives marched like lemmings to push it through.

This is one of the problems with forums like this. Just because I am against obamacare doesn't mean that I was for Bush and the war in Iraq. Matter of fact, if you had even skimmed my previous post you might get this.

Bush was an out and out moron and puppet. obama is a delegator who still hasn't run anything bigger than midnight basketball.

The office of the president of the United States has been so devalued that nearly any rube with the most funding can win the job with few to no qualifications by merely out lying the other guy.

My worst nightmare is 4 more years of obama followed by 4 years of palin, which by the way is where we are headed given the soft minded electorate who with more information readily at hand has become even less informed than ever before.

Dan8267 says

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget, is that anything like adding billions in unfinded healthcare entitlements when nearly half the country was against it without specifying any way to pay for it?

Please explain this to Shrek. Maybe he'll listen to you.

It is impossible to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

My worst nightmare is 4 more years of obama followed by 4 years of palin

I don't think you have anything to worry about with Palin.

What does the Geriatric Old People's Party look for in a female candidate? A 40-ish MILF who can regurgitate the talking points. She's past her "sell by" date as far as GOP wank material, her popularity decline is already evident.

However they'll find someone just as dumb to replace her.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

This is one of the problems with forums like this. Just because I am against obamacare doesn't mean that I was for Bush and the war in Iraq. Matter of fact, if you had even skimmed my previous post you might get this.

Bush was an out and out moron and puppet. obama is a delegator who still hasn't run anything bigger than midnight basketball.

The office of the president of the United States has been so devalued that nearly any rube with the most funding can win the job with few to no qualifications by merely out lying the other guy.

My worst nightmare is 4 more years of obama followed by 4 years of palin, which by the way is where we are headed given the soft minded electorate who with more information readily at hand has become even less informed than ever before.

Around here that's Code for "You're a Republican"

Now either get in line to stand on the soap box to kiss Obamas black ass, or you're full card carrying GOPer. There's no room for nothing else with this lot.

You can tell the liberal patneters they all have chocolate mustaches.

"The Administration deregulated Wall Street to enable a lot of this on the back-end. Pulled FBI resources from financial enforcement to anti-terrorism."

Yes and I actually know FBI agents. Although that is true we also pulled them from looking at organized crime...EVERYTHING was pulled to support anti terrorism. After 9/11 what were we expecting?

"What a crap argument. The anti-war movement wasn't strong enough to stop the war so it's too fucking late now. We were protesting to stop the damage, now the damage has been done so there's no point protesting."

Huh? So if more people die it is fine? So we have to wait for it to reach vietnam levels for people to protest?

"Plus we're out of Iraq for the most part."
Yeah and "A slight case of overbombing" is acceptable.
44,000 troops is still pretty significant..and it looks like it's now a permanent military base.

"Afghanistan is a different war and is harder to get out. If we keep fucking things up there protests will happen again, but there is a timetable to disengage and that keeps most people happy."

We went into Afghanistan to get OBL...we asked the Taliban to turn him over, they refused. OBL is dead..mission accomplished..can we go home now? We cannot realistically put in a government in place when they haven't had a central government in 30 years. It relies on opium for funds and there are no other cash crops. We have sanctions on Iran and Pakistan isn't exactly the land of milk and honey.

"That's some industrial-grade bullshit right there. Don't tell me how to think, clown."

I don't tell you how to think man. Your ethics are poor that's all I'm saying.

How is Obama that much different than Bush at this point? Obama won the primary because he voted against Iraq and Hillary didn't. But even after being in office we are STILL in Iraq. He STILL has not explained what exactly we are doing in Afghanistan after we killed OBL. Building a democracy? A republic?

Outside of Japan and Germany how many countries has the USA molded into stable and free governments? How did Panama go? Lebanon? Kosovo? Iran? Cuba? Vietnam? Russia? The military is great in defeating an enemy..and we did and he's dead. But the military is not police and to suggest that we have to be the police in other countries is far too much of a leap (just read Ron Pauls materials)

This whole do as I say not as I do doesn't go well. This isn't the first time we've reached a task only to find out that something drags us in further.

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Dan8267 says

TheLastGoodIdeablogspotcom says

Cooking the books by fighting two wars off-budget, is that anything like adding billions in unfinded healthcare entitlements when nearly half the country was against it without specifying any way to pay for it?

Please explain this to Shrek. Maybe he'll listen to you.

It is impossible to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Touché

Vicente says

A 40-ish MILF who can regurgitate the talking points.

I never got why people consider Palin or Bachmann to be MILFs. They are not the least bit good looking. Maybe it's because I just don't go for that over-22 look.

Dan8267 says

I never got why people consider Palin or Bachmann to be MILFs. They are not the least bit good looking. Maybe it's because I just don't go for that over-22 look.

Well, see, I sort of understand the thinking here, as someone who grew up in the South. Women back there are more likely to use tons and tons of makeup, basically using tons of face powder and stuff like that, craploads of hair spray, have dated hair styles, and so on. Men there sort of go for that kind of thing. Its ok for me to say these things since these are "my people".

The only thing I'd have to say about Palin is this. Read the book Game Change. It basically illustrates much of what happened politically in the spring to fall of 2008. Some of the bits include

- The selection of Palin was not a process well thought out.

- John Edwards relationship with his wife was more rocky than anyone would have thought..there was no real way he could have won

- Obama basically used the Iraq war vote to win the primaries

mdovell says

- The selection of Palin was not a process well thought out.

I would bet any amount of money, that Sarah Palin could fill a room with more people wanting to see her, supporters or otherwise, than any other political figure in America.
That includes Obama him self.

That is unless Obama used promotional tools at his disposal, to fill his room, he does have the federal budget to work with. He could buy an audience.

Tenouncetrout says

I would bet any amount of money, that Sarah Palin could fill a room with more people wanting to see her, supporters or otherwise, than any other political figure in America.
That includes Obama him self.

I'm not sure if that's much of a compliment.

@Dan8267

Thanks for the list (although I think the nearly all Repuplicans would have done the same or worse on at least 9 if not all 10 of these points). I didn't expect Shrekgrinch to come up with the goods.

Let's see. You've been a "long time supporter" of the GOP but you haven't voted for them in the last decade or in 1992. Sounds like a long time!

Not sure why would one support the Dems as they've managed to make the economy worse after wasting trillions of dollars on boondoggles like Solyndra and the other corrupt pork and labor union payout in the "stimulus"

Its pretty clear that Obama is incompetent and in over his head. We have to get rid of him for the sake of the country.

I for one was a democrat and a huge supporter of Bill Clinton and Al Gore. Obama had his chance, wasted trillions, and now has no answer on how to create jobs and get the economy moving other than raise taxes. America will be much better off as soon as he can return to the faculty lounge and get out of the White House.

Why are you engaging a troll?

Hell, The Greatest Orator Of All Time added 2.5 trillion dollars to the debt in his first 19 months! http://www.cnsnews.com/node/72404

You know what they say, a trillion here, a trilion there, soon you'll be talking real money.

Not sure why this forum would be any different than America. Voters ejected 64 Dem congressman in 2010 and Dems just lost a seat in NY-09 they've held since the 20s. Obviously, a lot of people have stopped supporting the Dems lately, not the GOP.

Oh, I think I did. It just wasn't the answer you wanted.

Then again, with 9.1% unemployment and Obama wracking up multi-trillion dollar debt and Obama at 39%, I suspect you're not going to find many answers you like.

AdmiralAdama says

Not sure why this forum would be any different than America. Voters ejected 64 Dem congressman in 2010 and Dems just lost a seat in NY-09 they've held since the 20s. Obviously, a lot of people have stopped supporting the Dems lately, not the GOP.

Don't forget that the depression and the citizens united case and unprecedented money backing teabagger wackos in 2010 might have been a factor. Add to that the money behind Fox news and talk radio, and their influence and we have nearly a perfect storm set up for a fascist regime to take over or for them to try.

Most hard core or old time right wingers won't see it until it's too late.

YOu might want to try out objectivity rather than just looking for propaganda which says what you wish to be true. (referring to this absurdity: http://www.cnsnews.com/node/72404 )