patrick.net

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer.

I imagine they are only interested in a fairly narrow range of skills.

finehoe says

gsr says

Employers in general want flexibility.

Yet they post extremely specific job requirements and when no one person can be found that has every single one of those requirements, they claim there is a skills shortage.

BINGO!

I've heard complaints of employers putting out job ads demanding three years of experience in a programming language which had only existed for perhaps six months.

ÙNew Renter says

I've heard complaints of employers putting out job ads demanding three years of experience in a programming language which had only existed for perhaps six months.

If that's always the case, the talent can't be anywhere in the world. Employer goofing up on job descriptions has nothing to do restrictions on foreign recruits or lowering the cost of labor.

New Renter says

BINGO!

I am currently interviewing for a position where I work. The requisition that the corporate office has put out for the job wants the candidate to have fifteen years experience (which is more than I, who will be this person's boss, have), yet the salary they are offering is about half of what I make. The truth of the matter is, we could get a bright recent collage grad and train them for the position and everyone would be happy, but instead we get these over-qualified candidates who once they find out the pay, aren't interested.

So when I hear this line about "we can't find any qualified applicants" I think about what is going where I work and I can't help but wonder how many of these employers are doing the same thing: Setting the qualification bar way too high, low-balling the salary, and then crying because they can't find anyone.

New Renter says

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer.

I imagine they are only interested in a fairly narrow range of skills.

But that's just it; it's all in the "family".

Thus, one can take advance courses in let's say chemical engineering and while the team/group isn't exactly designing a chemical process, the agency will appreciate the graduate level education in the applied mathematics/sciences which can then only help the person's career track.

This is the opposite of let's say biotech, where any course not exactly within the confines of the work at hand, i.e. cell stability, separations, etc, is seen as superfluous and ppl then label STEM types as Math freaks, as oppose to fellow tech workers. And the same goes for IT, where courses outside of SA, databases, programming methods (du jour), are put down.

I'd say that my firm has adopted the NSA mentality. Our receptionist/secretary is doing a Masters in a Science, part-time, and plans to take the Patent Agent exam when it's over. We realize that we have a smart employee, who makes a great impression with the clients and thus, we want to retain her, while offering an exit strategy of her becoming a Patent examiner, if and when the current job ends.

gsr says

New Renter says

I've heard complaints of employers putting out job ads demanding three years of experience in a programming language which had only existed for perhaps six months.

If that's always the case, the talent can't be anywhere in the world. Employer goofing up on job descriptions has nothing to do restrictions on foreign recruits or lowering the cost of labor.

finehoe says

So when I hear this line about "we can't find any qualified applicants" I think about what is going where I work and I can't help but wonder how many of these employers are doing the same thing: Setting the qualification bar way too high, low-balling the salary, and then crying because they can't find anyone.

Or perhaps they have no desire to raise headcount but the company goes through the motions of a fake candidate search to appease their overworked staff. A friend of mine worked in a company which did just that.

hey how come no one has mentioned the "inconveniences" or "hidden costs" of hiring American workers beside the differences in wages?

such as too much politics, arguments, infighting because everyone is cocky, arrogant and has an ego the size of the moon?

or the fact that employers are much more likely to be sued for a paper cut happened at work?

or the fact that everyone believes they are ENTITLED to a house and a good job with no real degree and very little work (remember the free housing debacle recently? "strategic defaulters" who demand bailouts from Obama?)

how about union thugs protesting in front of your business making a big scene scaring away/harassing your potential customers?

fake injuries at work for worker comps?

i'm curious about the difference in cost of health insurance premiums between the two group as well. one is slim and the other one is...lets just say "not so slim" with all kinds of (potential) health problems (high cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes...the list goes on..)?

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer. Natl Sec takes care of its smart workers, providing addl training & long term benefits.

Unfortunately you have to do evil on the behalf of politicians and generals.

Mark D says

hey how come no one has mentioned the "inconveniences" or "hidden costs" of hiring American workers beside the differences in wages?

such as too much politics, arguments, infighting because everyone is cocky, arrogant and has an ego the size of the moon?

Not to mention trolling...

Mark D says

or the fact that everyone believes they are ENTITLED to a house and a good job with no real degree and very little work (remember the free housing debacle recently? "strategic defaulters" who demand bailouts from Obama?)

Which has nothing to do with the issue at hand here

Mark D says

how about union thugs protesting in front of your business making a big scene scaring away/harassing your potential customers?

Hahahhahaha, good one! When was the last time scientists and engineers did anything proactive like that?

Mark D says

fake injuries at work for worker comps?

Dude, we're not roofers!

Mark D says

i'm curious about the difference in cost of health insurance premiums between the two group as well. one is slim and the other one is...lets just say "not so slim" with all kinds of (potential) health problems (high cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes...the list goes on..)?

Ah the Chewbacca defense - Look at the silly monkey!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

Dan8267 says

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer. Natl Sec takes care of its smart workers, providing addl training & long term benefits.

Unfortunately you have to do evil on the behalf of politicians and generals.

That has always been a part of STEM.

New Renter says

finehoe says

So when I hear this line about "we can't find any qualified applicants" I think about what is going where I work and I can't help but wonder how many of these employers are doing the same thing: Setting the qualification bar way too high, low-balling the salary, and then crying because they can't find anyone.

Or perhaps they have no desire to raise headcount but the company goes through the motions of a fake candidate search to appease their overworked staff. A friend of mine worked in a company which did just that.

These things are always possible. This does not mean all employers do that. This also does not have anything to do with getting cheap foreign labor.

Here is another thing. If you think all employers are fools, and they are wasting talents, you should go and set up your own company, and start hiring all of them. You can trying putting money where your mouth is.

gsr says

If you think all employers are fools, and they are wasting talents, you should go and set up your own company, and start hiring all of them. You can trying putting money where your mouth is.

Spoken like a true capitalist tool.

Mark D says

how come no one has mentioned the "inconveniences" or "hidden costs" of hiring American workers beside the differences in wages?

Maybe because we don't consider pay and conditions above third-world sweatshop conditions to be "inconveniences" or "hidden costs".

finehoe says

Spoken like a true capitalist tool.

This is supposed to be an insult? If not, it is redundant.

Perhaps you should suggest what would be your socialist solution. All I hear is this. 1 Banning foreigners from coming over to the country, and 2. Forcing companies to hire more, and relax the bar. I am sure that is a recipe for success, as it is in France.
Are you a lobbyist?

gsr says

hese things are always possible. This does not mean all employers do that. This also does not have anything to do with getting cheap foreign labor.

Here is another thing. If you think all employers are fools, and they are wasting talents, you should go and set up your own company, and start hiring all of them. You can trying putting money where your mouth is.

It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.

I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.

gsr says

Are you a lobbyist?

Are you? You sure talk like one.

gsr says

Perhaps you should suggest what would be your socialist solution. All I hear is this. 1 Banning foreigners from coming over to the country, and 2. Forcing companies to hire more, and relax the bar. I am sure that is a recipe for success, as it is in France.

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers. This myth has been debunked time and time again yet it continues to exist thanks to the vested interests of industry to keep labor costs down and academia who like their indentured servants.

The only person here suggesting Banning foreigners from coming over to the country, and 2. Forcing companies to hire more, and relax the bar. is you.

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

It's almost like they wanted to lower our wages through trickery!

CL says

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

It's almost like they wanted to lower our wages through trickery!

By any means necessary.

You ever worked with one of these so called experts (H-1B)? They are mostly good at BS'ing management.

New Renter says

That has always been a part of STEM.

But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

That has always been a part of STEM.

But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.

Consider yourself drafted...

New Renter says

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

That has always been a part of STEM.

But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.

Consider yourself drafted...

Look at it this way... society is laughing at STEMs, including other STEMs who're cozy with management a/o MBA types. There's not much of a cohesive STEM club/society whereas the Marines watch each others' back out there in the field. Instead, STEMs side with MBAs because one day, they hope to be management themselves.

With that in mind, aside from Natl Sec (because I don't count later going to medical school, patent law, or prop trading to be true STEM calling), is it worth studying and working so hard to be at the bottom rungs of the white collar world, where an accountant, who'd dropped out of Calculus II [ since he obviously didn't want a 'D' on his transcript ], is calling the shots on your R&D cost center?

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.

New Renter says

It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.

I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.

A job is not an entitlement. If we agree they are not fools, and they want cheaper labor, then you understand that you would do the same if you were them.

gsr says

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.

Take your pick:

Dramatically higher unemployment.

Greater burden on already strained social welfare systems.

Increasing wealth disparity.

Further destruction of the middle class

Discouraging at least an entire generation of native born (including the kids of those immigrants) from even studying STEM fields.

gsr says

New Renter says

It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.

I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.

A job is not an entitlement. If we agree they are not fools, and they want cheaper labor, then you understand that you would do the same if you were them.

So you agree that the STEM shortage is bullshit. Good. Now answer me this - if their motives are so pure why do they feel the need to lie?

gsr says

A job is not an entitlement.

Try to remember that as you're packing up your office...

New Renter says

Dramatically higher unemployment.

Greater burden on already strained social welfare systems.

Increasing wealth disparity.

There are several reasons for this. It is very hard to described this in one post.

First, you have to accept the reality. The cost of labor is very high in the US, and the government plays a big part in ensuring that. But the cost of labor/living does not necessarily relate to the standard of living. Bay Area is a prime example of that. See what things have been costing more to an average citizen. It is primarily the cost of housing and the cost of healthcare. The government is heavily involved in both. This is true is most western countries.

Also, if the salary does not go up with the cost of living, the demand would dry up. Why didn't that happen?

Because fed made to sure to have cheap credits for everyone, with the help of fractional reserve lending. You know how much stuff people buy on credits these days. This has further helped in widening the income gap. This is particularly hurtful here since we have the world's reserve currency.

In addition, Asia has been catching up pretty quickly in terms of science and technology.

Contrary to what "finehoe" believes, it is a complete lie that foreign high tech and science workers live and work in a sweat-shop like conditions. Go visit Hong Kong or Singapore. Their standard of living is quite high, if not higher.

The world has become smaller. The standard of living has gone up over there. Yes, this has been accomplished by free enterprise in just a decade, which decades of foreign aid could not do.

What we need to do is understand where the cost has been going up, and where it can be cut without hurting the standard of living. It won't be that tough.

The world has become exciting and competitive place. You can either accept the challenge, or you can complain about foreigners taking jobs.

New Renter says

So you agree that the STEM shortage is bullshit.

No I don't agree or disagree. I don't have enough data points. There is also a difference between quality and quantity. Sometimes we mix the two.

New Renter says

gsr says

A job is not an entitlement.

Try to remember that as you're packing up your office...

I guess an individual who goes through hardships at some point in his/her life understands better that a job is not an entitlement. And individual who does not struggle ever in life does not understand that. It is as true as the law of gravity. You or I or the government can't change that.

gsr says

New Renter says

gsr says

A job is not an entitlement.

Try to remember that as you're packing up your office...

I guess an individual who goes through hardships at some point in his/her life understands better that a job is not an entitlement. And individual who does not struggle ever in life does not understand that. It is as true as the law of gravity. You or I or the government can't change that.

You know what else is even less an entitlement? Unlimited cheap labor.

New Renter says

Unlimited cheap labor.

Nothing is unlimited. The labor costs have been going up. Another group has hired a few engineers in Bangalore. Their median salary is equivalent to 55K USD. Some folks have been earning close to 100K USD.

It is still cheaper to pay someone 55K in Bangalore than paying than same to somewhere here. Go to salary.com and find how much it costs to pay someone just the 55K salary.

New Renter says

Consider yourself drafted...

On a serious note, that has unfortunately happened in places like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. I'd hate to see it happen here, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised.

Rin says

There's not much of a cohesive STEM club/society whereas the Marines watch each others' back out there in the field. Instead, STEMs side with MBAs because one day, they hope to be management themselves.

It was a better culture in the 1990s. Today, a lot of software engineering types see management as the exit strategy and will back-stab to make it into management.

gsr, it takes a lot of foresight for a society to have a well educated generation of scientists and engineers. Kids don't want to study all the time for nickels and dimes.

This idea that "Yes, you should study science" followed by "a technical job is not an entitlement", is a slap in the face when many of us could have dropped out of HS and repaired cars for a living. And in my case, I clearly had everything in place for admissions to an MD program which I'd decided not to do because I was temporarily fooled into believing that our society needed S&Es. Today, I work for a hedge fund; that mistake has been corrected.

And a lot of ppl join the army so that they can do what the private sector has failed them and that's on-the-job training along with an actual job in the military. I knew a great aircraft machinist, who had a great career in the army but afterwards, was stuck doing odd jobs, here and there, in the private sector after being honorably discharged. He was hard working, not some welfare queen.

Rin,

A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.

In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.

So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.

gsr says

New Renter says

Unlimited cheap labor.

Nothing is unlimited. The labor costs have been going up. Another group has hired a few engineers in Bangalore. Their median salary is equivalent to 55K USD. Some folks have been earning close to 100K USD.

It is still cheaper to pay someone 55K in Bangalore than paying than same to somewhere here. Go to salary.com and find how much it costs to pay someone just the 55K salary.

Of course this just confirms that the "STEM shortage" is a lie to get cheaper labor.

gsr says

Rin,

A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.

In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.

So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.

Slap!
How dare you punks think those years of hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded with job prospects. Fuck You, I got mine Jack!

Slap!

OK, got it.

New Renter says

gsr says

Rin,

A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.

In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.

So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.

Slap!

How dare you punks think those years of hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded with job prospects. Fuck You, I got mine Jack!

A car repair job requires 6 mos of training. And believe it or not, cars need fixing and that fixing can't be offshored.

S&E careers, however, require a lot more. But instead of going through that, if those who'd normally make the grades in the hard courses decide to become accountants, nurses, or join the army, where would we be as a society? Probably not too far from third world status.

You see, that's where this whole 'entitlement' attitude, coming from MBA types, is leading towards. If someone calls me 'entitled', well then guess what? ... I'll leave the sciences and find work elsewhere. And I did exactly that, managing other ppl's money. Am I really contributing to society by doing that? And then, when thousands of others follow suit then we'll have a nation really short staffed in the sciences.

Rin says

... I'll leave the sciences and find work elsewhere. And I did exactly that, managing other ppl's money. Am I really contributing to society by doing that? And then, when thousands of others follow suit then we'll have a nation really short staffed in the sciences.

Good for you. The nation's economy is heavily dependent on finance and financial engineering currently. This has started since 1970. That has caused a brain drain of a lot of smart people away from science and technology in this country, and to a less extent in other places. That needs to be fixed.

Majority will go where the money is. You don't hear hue and cry about foreigners taking over the finance jobs. Limiting or eliminating cheaper foreign labor won't fix a single thing. It will simply make it worse, as more companies will set up offices in foreign countries and on cruise ships. The world has become a lot more bigger than any single nation.