patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,201,332 comments by 14,237 users - WookieMan online now
invite response« First « Previous Comments 73 - 112 of 310 Next » Last » Search these comments
CL
2013 Apr 30, 8:22am
We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.
It's almost like they wanted to lower our wages through trickery!
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 9:02am
We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.
It's almost like they wanted to lower our wages through trickery!
By any means necessary.
MAGA
2013 Apr 30, 9:18am
You ever worked with one of these so called experts (H-1B)? They are mostly good at BS'ing management.
Dan8267
2013 Apr 30, 9:36am
That has always been a part of STEM.
But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 9:48am
That has always been a part of STEM.
But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.
Consider yourself drafted...
Rin
2013 Apr 30, 10:17am
That has always been a part of STEM.
But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.
Consider yourself drafted...
Look at it this way... society is laughing at STEMs, including other STEMs who're cozy with management a/o MBA types. There's not much of a cohesive STEM club/society whereas the Marines watch each others' back out there in the field. Instead, STEMs side with MBAs because one day, they hope to be management themselves.
With that in mind, aside from Natl Sec (because I don't count later going to medical school, patent law, or prop trading to be true STEM calling), is it worth studying and working so hard to be at the bottom rungs of the white collar world, where an accountant, who'd dropped out of Calculus II [ since he obviously didn't want a 'D' on his transcript ], is calling the shots on your R&D cost center?
We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.
I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.
It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.
I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.
A job is not an entitlement. If we agree they are not fools, and they want cheaper labor, then you understand that you would do the same if you were them.
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 10:35am
We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.
I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.
Take your pick:
Dramatically higher unemployment.
Greater burden on already strained social welfare systems.
Increasing wealth disparity.
Further destruction of the middle class
Discouraging at least an entire generation of native born (including the kids of those immigrants) from even studying STEM fields.
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 10:54am
It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.
I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.
A job is not an entitlement. If we agree they are not fools, and they want cheaper labor, then you understand that you would do the same if you were them.
So you agree that the STEM shortage is bullshit. Good. Now answer me this - if their motives are so pure why do they feel the need to lie?
Dramatically higher unemployment.
Greater burden on already strained social welfare systems.
Increasing wealth disparity.
There are several reasons for this. It is very hard to described this in one post.
First, you have to accept the reality. The cost of labor is very high in the US, and the government plays a big part in ensuring that. But the cost of labor/living does not necessarily relate to the standard of living. Bay Area is a prime example of that. See what things have been costing more to an average citizen. It is primarily the cost of housing and the cost of healthcare. The government is heavily involved in both. This is true is most western countries.
Also, if the salary does not go up with the cost of living, the demand would dry up. Why didn't that happen?
Because fed made to sure to have cheap credits for everyone, with the help of fractional reserve lending. You know how much stuff people buy on credits these days. This has further helped in widening the income gap. This is particularly hurtful here since we have the world's reserve currency.
In addition, Asia has been catching up pretty quickly in terms of science and technology.
Contrary to what "finehoe" believes, it is a complete lie that foreign high tech and science workers live and work in a sweat-shop like conditions. Go visit Hong Kong or Singapore. Their standard of living is quite high, if not higher.
The world has become smaller. The standard of living has gone up over there. Yes, this has been accomplished by free enterprise in just a decade, which decades of foreign aid could not do.
What we need to do is understand where the cost has been going up, and where it can be cut without hurting the standard of living. It won't be that tough.
The world has become exciting and competitive place. You can either accept the challenge, or you can complain about foreigners taking jobs.
So you agree that the STEM shortage is bullshit.
No I don't agree or disagree. I don't have enough data points. There is also a difference between quality and quantity. Sometimes we mix the two.
A job is not an entitlement.
Try to remember that as you're packing up your office...
I guess an individual who goes through hardships at some point in his/her life understands better that a job is not an entitlement. And individual who does not struggle ever in life does not understand that. It is as true as the law of gravity. You or I or the government can't change that.
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 11:45am
A job is not an entitlement.
Try to remember that as you're packing up your office...
I guess an individual who goes through hardships at some point in his/her life understands better that a job is not an entitlement. And individual who does not struggle ever in life does not understand that. It is as true as the law of gravity. You or I or the government can't change that.
You know what else is even less an entitlement? Unlimited cheap labor.
Unlimited cheap labor.
Nothing is unlimited. The labor costs have been going up. Another group has hired a few engineers in Bangalore. Their median salary is equivalent to 55K USD. Some folks have been earning close to 100K USD.
It is still cheaper to pay someone 55K in Bangalore than paying than same to somewhere here. Go to salary.com and find how much it costs to pay someone just the 55K salary.
Dan8267
2013 Apr 30, 12:03pm
Consider yourself drafted...
On a serious note, that has unfortunately happened in places like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. I'd hate to see it happen here, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised.
There's not much of a cohesive STEM club/society whereas the Marines watch each others' back out there in the field. Instead, STEMs side with MBAs because one day, they hope to be management themselves.
It was a better culture in the 1990s. Today, a lot of software engineering types see management as the exit strategy and will back-stab to make it into management.
Rin
2013 Apr 30, 1:13pm
gsr, it takes a lot of foresight for a society to have a well educated generation of scientists and engineers. Kids don't want to study all the time for nickels and dimes.
This idea that "Yes, you should study science" followed by "a technical job is not an entitlement", is a slap in the face when many of us could have dropped out of HS and repaired cars for a living. And in my case, I clearly had everything in place for admissions to an MD program which I'd decided not to do because I was temporarily fooled into believing that our society needed S&Es. Today, I work for a hedge fund; that mistake has been corrected.
And a lot of ppl join the army so that they can do what the private sector has failed them and that's on-the-job training along with an actual job in the military. I knew a great aircraft machinist, who had a great career in the army but afterwards, was stuck doing odd jobs, here and there, in the private sector after being honorably discharged. He was hard working, not some welfare queen.
Rin,
A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.
In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.
So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 2:02pm
Unlimited cheap labor.
Nothing is unlimited. The labor costs have been going up. Another group has hired a few engineers in Bangalore. Their median salary is equivalent to 55K USD. Some folks have been earning close to 100K USD.
It is still cheaper to pay someone 55K in Bangalore than paying than same to somewhere here. Go to salary.com and find how much it costs to pay someone just the 55K salary.
Of course this just confirms that the "STEM shortage" is a lie to get cheaper labor.
New Renter
2013 Apr 30, 2:06pm
Rin,
A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.
In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.
So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.
Slap!
How dare you punks think those years of hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded with job prospects. Fuck You, I got mine Jack!
Slap!
OK, got it.
Rin
2013 Apr 30, 2:22pm
Rin,
A technical job or even car repair job is not an entitlement anywhere in the world in private sector through government legislation. I challenge you to find a place where it is.
In many places, a technical education is subsidized. But it never comes with a job guarantee.
So far as the cost is concerned, again there is a gigantic student loan bubble.
Slap!
How dare you punks think those years of hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded with job prospects. Fuck You, I got mine Jack!
A car repair job requires 6 mos of training. And believe it or not, cars need fixing and that fixing can't be offshored.
S&E careers, however, require a lot more. But instead of going through that, if those who'd normally make the grades in the hard courses decide to become accountants, nurses, or join the army, where would we be as a society? Probably not too far from third world status.
You see, that's where this whole 'entitlement' attitude, coming from MBA types, is leading towards. If someone calls me 'entitled', well then guess what? ... I'll leave the sciences and find work elsewhere. And I did exactly that, managing other ppl's money. Am I really contributing to society by doing that? And then, when thousands of others follow suit then we'll have a nation really short staffed in the sciences.
... I'll leave the sciences and find work elsewhere. And I did exactly that, managing other ppl's money. Am I really contributing to society by doing that? And then, when thousands of others follow suit then we'll have a nation really short staffed in the sciences.
Good for you. The nation's economy is heavily dependent on finance and financial engineering currently. This has started since 1970. That has caused a brain drain of a lot of smart people away from science and technology in this country, and to a less extent in other places. That needs to be fixed.
Majority will go where the money is. You don't hear hue and cry about foreigners taking over the finance jobs. Limiting or eliminating cheaper foreign labor won't fix a single thing. It will simply make it worse, as more companies will set up offices in foreign countries and on cruise ships. The world has become a lot more bigger than any single nation.
Who gives you the right to take away the freedom of a group of individuals ( owners of a corp) to hire whom ever they want to in order to get the best bang for their buck ?
So much so for the land of free people.
If a group of people worked their ass off , "paid their taxes back to the society", saved some money, started/invested in a company and then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants, ....they can do whatever heck they want to do with their money.....its their money and their company.
Who the hell are you to force them to hire you and part with their savings with you?
Do you want the 70 years old retiree who is getting a 10% return on his retirement investment from a tech company to now get only 2% so that you can enjoy a fat paycheck ?
As long as the corps are not hiring criminals and welfare recipients but hiring tax paying law abiding immigrants..i don't see any issue.
finehoe
2013 May 1, 12:03am
I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.
Also known as "open borders". Your kids will thank you.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 1:28am
If a group of people worked their ass off , "paid their taxes back to the society", saved some money, started/invested in a company and then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants, ....they can do whatever heck they want to do with their money.....its their money and their company.
Who the hell are you to force them to hire you and part with their savings with you?
Conversely, why should I pay sales taxes when I buy something on the Internet made out of state, probably out of country?
Why should it be illegal for me to buy pharmaceuticals from Canada where they are cheaper?
Why shouldn't I be able to mail order a DVD from China and play it on my DVD player?
Why shouldn't I be able to purchase a Tommy Hilfiger shirt directly from the Chinese company that makes the actual shirt? It would cost less than a tenth of what it does in my local mall and that's including shipping.
There are lots of laws protecting the profits of corporations by limiting what individual citizens can do. Perhaps we should get rid of some of those regulations.
New Renter
2013 May 1, 1:35am
Who gives you the right to take away the freedom of a group of individuals ( owners of a corp) to hire whom ever they want to in order to get the best bang for their buck ?
So much so for the land of free people.
If a group of people worked their ass off , "paid their taxes back to the society", saved some money, started/invested in a company and then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants, ....they can do whatever heck they want to do with their money.....its their money and their company.
Who the hell are you to force them to hire you and part with their savings with you?
Do you want the 70 years old retiree who is getting a 10% return on his retirement investment from a tech company to now get only 2% so that you can enjoy a fat paycheck ?
As long as the corps are not hiring criminals and welfare recipients but hiring tax paying law abiding immigrants..i don't see any issue.
Glad to see you agree the STEM shortage is bullshit as well, that the TRUE purpose is driving down wages.
Again the entire point of this thread is that the shortage of STEM employees in this country is a myth. This myth is then used to justify an increase in H1B visas. If this action is so pure to American values why do they have to lie about it? Why not just come out and say American STEM workers are too expensive and don't want to be treated like crap. We need to bring in cheaper foreign labor who as a bonus has less recourse to being treated like crap.
Any freedom loving American will stand up and salute - you certainly have!
CL
2013 May 1, 2:26am
A car repair job requires 6 mos of training. And believe it or not, cars need fixing and that fixing can't be offshored.
I was a concrete laborer in the 80s and made ~30-40K at the same time I was finishing college, which was at Purdue with 80s State tuition costs. Even then I thought, why pay so much to be a mathematician, get paid the same amount and not accrue 150K of debt?
I'd be up 150K on wages and down 150k on tuition for a loss of 300K.
These retarded libertarian laissez-faire notions would have made certain I'd have stopped my education, and I'd be a even more stupider guy then I turneded out to be.
Also known as "open borders". Your kids will thank you.
You still don't understand. This is not 1950 any more.
Of course, you have the choice to remain a country hick, and assume that closing borders will alleviate all problems related to unemployment. And you kids will be safe from those "aliens".
But the reality is that if a person is talented, he/she will be hired irrespective of his/her national origin. If one country closes borders, the other country will open it. There is no reason for an employee to come to the US just to find work. He/she has more choices, including his/her home country.
Open your eyes. Read more news. The world is becoming multi-polar. A talented person can be found anywhere in the world.
It is not just about cost-cutting at all. If that's the case, Zimbabwe would have been the economic powerhouse.
The entire Asia and Eastern Europe are catching up fast. There will be less and less immigration from there, as more lucrative jobs are already available over there. Salaries have been skyrocketing during the last ten years. Blocking people from coming over here will only accelerate that trend.
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 3:56am
A talented person can be found anywhere in the world.
Ah, but that has nothing to do with the reason for outsourcing. Outsourcing is done to take a greater share of the employee's wealth production, that is all. Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.
finehoe
2013 May 1, 4:45am
You still don't understand. This is not 1950 any more.
I'm quite aware of which century it is, thank you.
You can go off into further flights of fancy about perfect competition bidding away the surplus/profit/benefits of exchange of the employer too, but then suddenly no-one gains anything from the employment contract, so presumably something has gone wrong.
MisdemeanorRebel
2013 May 1, 5:03am
There are five powerful, objective measures of a STEM Glut:
1. ~35% of STEM Grads not employed in any STEM field. Studies vary, but most are around 35%, that is, the independent studies that aren't sponsored by Industry PR firms or underwritten think tanks.
2. Length of time between jobs; shortage means they would probably have a job before quitting or get one real quick after a layoff.
3. Almost total lack of interest in training employees, both old and new.
3b. Unpaid or low paying internships by STEM-oriented companies.
3c. Limited internships offered, more applicants than spaces. In a true shortage, companies would be backstabbing each other, offering secret keg stand parties, etc. to attract and impress potential future employees.
4. Disparity between STEM graduation numbers and number of net new jobs created in STEM fields.
5. Stagnant Wages on average for the STEM Field generally. Yes, there may be a shortage in one or two narrow categories, but generally, wages are flat.
New Renter
2013 May 1, 5:13am
The entire Asia and Eastern Europe are catching up fast. There will be less and less immigration from there, as more lucrative jobs are already available over there. Salaries have been skyrocketing during the last ten years. Blocking people from coming over here will only accelerate that trend.
I assume you mean salaries "over there" have been skyrocketing. If you think STEM salaries here have been skyrocketing you're even more delusional that I thought.
If you did indeed mean salaries "over there" have been skyrocketing AND if those are STEM salaries GREAT! That means at least SOMEONE values STEM workers.
Your logic however is flawed. Removing STEM workers from "over there" and bringing them here will only decrease the size of the labor pool and accelerate the increase of compensation "over there". Reducing US immigration will maintain the size of the "over there" labor pool.
New Renter
2013 May 1, 5:16am
There are five powerful, objective measures of a STEM Glut:
1. ~35% of STEM Grads not employed in any STEM field. Studies vary, but most are around 35%, that is, the independent studies that aren't sponsored by Industry PR firms or underwritten think tanks.
2. Length of time between jobs; shortage means they would probably have a job before quitting or get one real quick after a layoff.
3. Almost total lack of interest in training employees, both old and new.
3b. Unpaid or low paying internships by STEM-oriented companies.
3c. Limited internships offered, more applicants than spaces. In a true shortage, companies would be backstabbing each other, offering secret keg stand parties, etc. to attract and impress potential future employees.
4. Disparity between STEM graduation numbers and number of net new jobs created in STEM fields.
5. Stagnant Wages on average for the STEM Field generally. Yes, there may be a shortage in one or two narrow categories, but generally, wages are flat.
Agreed 100% on all of this.
I don't believe anyone here has been arguing the shortage is real, rather why its the moral obligation of the powers that be to lie about it in order to fuck over American STEM workers
Glad to see you agree the STEM shortage is bullshit as well, that the TRUE purpose is driving down wages.
You have to be naive to believe that there is ever a shortage of any talent if you are willing to pay unlimited salary.
Do you really believe if you pay 1 million dollars/year for engineering jobs , you will have shortage of american born labor pool ?
The shortage is always at a given salary. The salary where profit can be realized !
The tech products have to be profitable at a given price points. You can only sell at certain price points else people won't buy them. How do you get to be profitable while selling at competitive prices ?
Are you suggesting that we put barriers so that american engineers get
huge pays at the expense of consumers/investors and growth of the tech industry ?
Dan8267
2013 May 1, 6:54am
4. Disparity between STEM graduation numbers and number of net new jobs created in STEM fields.
This is going to apply to all fields. There aren't enough jobs out there for the current labor market. As more and more Millennials poor into the labor market with advanced degrees, this is only going to get far, far worse.
Most of the retiring Boomers have long moved into management, but why do you need management when everything is outsourced. Anything below the executive level will be downsized.
Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.
This has been already discussed at length. The bottom line is this.
You can believe that, if that makes you happy. The reality is that the trend will continue. Either you adapt to it, or complain about it for years to come.
I assume you mean salaries "over there" have been skyrocketing.
Correct. Salaries have been going up in Asia. A lot of people have migrated there for work as well.
Companies aren't looking for better talent; they are accepting far inferior talent in order to pay employees far less.
companies know how to take care of their business and whom they need to hire to get their work done while creating maximum profit for their investors. If they are hiring inferior talent, thats what makes sense to them probably.
« First « Previous Comments 73 - 112 of 310 Next » Last » Search these comments
If there’s one thing that everyone can agree on in Washington, it’s that the country has a woeful shortage of workers trained in science, technology, engineering and math — what’s referred to as STEM.
President Obama has said that improving STEM education is one of his top priorities. Chief executives regularly come through Washington complaining that they can’t find qualified American workers for openings at their firms that require a science background. And armed with this argument in the debate over immigration policy, lobbyists are pushing hard for more temporary work visas, known as H-1Bs, which they say are needed to make up for the lack of Americans with STEM skills.
But not everyone agrees. A study released Wednesday by the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute reinforces what a number of researchers have come to believe: that the STEM worker shortage is a myth.
The EPI study found that the United States has “more than a sufficient supply of workers available to work in STEM occupations.†Basic dynamics of supply and demand would dictate that if there were a domestic labor shortage, wages should have risen. Instead, researchers found, they’ve been flat, with many Americans holding STEM degrees unable to enter the field and a sharply higher share of foreign workers taking jobs in the information technology industry. (IT jobs make up 59 percent of the STEM workforce, according to the study.)
The answer to whether there is a shortage of such workers has important ramifications for the immigration bill. If it exists, then there’s an urgency that justifies allowing companies to bring more foreign workers into the country, usually on a short-term H-1B visa. But those who oppose such a policy argue that companies want more of these visas mainly because H-1B workers are paid an estimated 20 percent less than their American counterparts. Why allow these companies to hire more foreign workers for less, the critics argue, when there are plenty of Americans who are ready to work?
The EPI study said that while the overall number of U.S. students who earn STEM degrees is small — a fact that many lawmakers and the news media have seized on — it’s more important to focus on what happens to these students after they graduate. According to the study, they have a surprisingly hard time finding work. Only half of the students graduating from college with a STEM degree are hired into a STEM job, the study said.
“Even in engineering,†the authors said, “U.S. colleges have historically produced about 50 percent more graduates than are hired into engineering jobs each year.â€
The picture is not that bright for computer science students, either. “For computer science graduates employed one year after graduation . . . about half of those who took a job outside of IT say they did so because the career prospects were better elsewhere, and roughly a third because they couldn’t find a job in IT,†the study said.
While liberal arts graduates might be used to having to look for jobs with only tenuous connections to their majors, the researchers said this shouldn’t be the case for graduates with degrees attached to specific skills such as engineering.
The tech industry has said that it needs more H-1B visas in order to hire the “best and the brightest,†regardless of their citizenship. Yet the IT industry seems to have a surprisingly low bar for education. The study found that among IT workers, 36 percent do not have a four-year college degree. Among the 64 percent who do have diplomas, only 38 percent have a computer science or math degree.
The bipartisan immigration plan introduced last week by the so-called Gang of Eight senators would raise the number of H-1B visas, though it would limit the ability of outsourcing firms to have access to them. Tech companies such as Facebook and Microsoft have fought hard to distinguish themselves from these outsourcing companies, arguing that unlike firms such as Wipro, they’re looking for the best people, not just ones who will work for less.
But some worry that the more H-1Bs allowed into the system, the more domestic workers get crowded out, resulting in what no one appears to want: fewer American students seeing much promise in entering STEM fields.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-there-may-not-be-a-shortage-of-american-stem-graduates-after-all/2013/04/24/66099962-acea-11e2-a8b9-2a63d75b5459_story.html
#politics