patrick.net

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

Pharmacist:

http://singularityhub.com/2012/06/03/meet-robot-rx-the-robot-pharmacist-doling-out-350-million-doses-per-year/

Can the robot pharmacist read the doctor's handwriting?

Its all electronic now anyway.

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

Well when the nuclear industry is desperate enough to hire THIS guy as a safety officer you have to believe in the STEM myth:

I used to work at a TVA nuclear plant. You would sometimes find photoshopped pictures of Homer Simpson wearing a TVA hard hat around the place. For some reason, management didn't approve of this.

Given the public's perception of nuclear hazards and its safety record that isn't much of a surprise.

New Renter says

and STEM workers forced to leave the field

Trust me on this ... after having left STEM for Hedge Fund/Money Management, I've never seen so much money (for nothing), in my entire life. There is no doubt in my mind that finance will be the ongoing non-heath care sponge for many future STEM-educated (perhaps not exactly a full science/engineering program but a fraction of the coursework) people. Here's an example of that type of school work at an Ivy college, Columbia Univ:

http://cvn.columbia.edu/mfin_MS.php

New Renter says

The point here is the myth of a STEM worker shortage is alive and well despite decades of evidence to the contrary. This evidence includes stagnant and declining wages, eternal post docs, and STEM workers forced to leave the field.

OK, I disagree with my anecdotal experience in the High Tech. We find its extremely hard to get the right talent. We look for people with distributed systems and OS experiences. Most kids out of college these days don't have that kind of experience. There are only a few good ones, who get swopped by big guns like Google, Vmware etc.

People who are good in academia, doing post-docs do not always have the right set of experiences. Many of them seemingly have authored papers on distributed systems without implementing a single distributed system.

Off course, finding talents overseas is the not easy either.

In other words, you may see a quite few high degree holders without a great paying jobs. But you also see a talent shortage, at least in the high tech.

Employers in general want flexibility. They do not give jobs for charity. So the ethnicity or the national origin does not really matter to them. They don't want this restriction to be imposed by the government.

gsr says

People who are good in academia, doing post-docs do not always have the right set of experiences. Many of them seemingly have authored papers on distributed systems without implementing a single distributed system.

Off course, finding talents overseas is the not easy either.

Very few ppl have exactly the right fit for a job description. Ultimately, if STEM is of value to our society, which it isn't, then creating the labor pool is actually easy.

Go to a graduate school gathering and give your future prospects a challenge to develop a system with XYZ characteristics. Then, they can study the notes/coursebooks after hours, learn what they need to know, and finally try out for an internship at your company with the right background.

New Renter says

Until then the threat to American surgeons is going to be medical tourism and the internet.

Medical tourism may well limit the amount of overcharging for chronic problems, but it's not practical to hope on a flight to India in an emergency.

I hope that the Internet becomes a good source of self-diagnostic, but right now it sucks. Using the Internet is a great way to misdiagnose yourself.

Of course, even if a website or app comes around that gives you a free, 100% accurate diagnosis, which given the legal liability of even being accused of being wrong is unlikely, you still need a doctor to write the prescription and that won't be change because of lobbying. Hell, why do women need a prescription for birth control pills that have been around for fifty years and used by 98% of the female population over 14?

donjumpsuit says

On top of it, IT workers who send emails routinely make $160k out of college, yet once you earn your Ph.D. you get the honor of getting paid as a post-doc. This salary is $42k. Graduate Student is $32k.

Actually you don't need a college degree to be a marketer/spammer.

As far as what people do vs what they know.
There's an old story from when the Alaskan pipe lines were being built. The cold and ice would take its toll on the heavy machinery. There was this once instance when a Caterpillar Earth mover was broken, the mechanics they had on site, were puzzled as they couldn't figure out how to get a particluar hydrolics working. Finally after days of fighting with it, a very expensive factory mechanic from Caterpillar was called out. He took one look at it, went to his tool box and grabbed a hammer and strategically gave a few whacks, and told the guy to start it up. To everyone's astonishment, it worked like a champ and they could continue with task.
When the forman on the job got an outrageous bill for tens of thousands of dollars to fly a factory mechanic out he about had a heart attack. "What do you mean 10 thousand dollars just to come out here and bang on a machine with a hammer?"

To which the mechanic replied, "You're not paying for me hitting your machine with a hammer, you're paying for knowing where to hit your machine with a hammer. "

I am sure if you ask Walmart, they will say that their greeters are overpaid and they have a skills shortage and they need to bring in foreign workers!

donjumpsuit says

yet once you earn your Ph.D. you get the honor of getting paid as a post-doc. This salary is $42k. Graduate Student is $32k.

Graduate students should be told that if they want a PhD, they should either have a spouse who's willing to support 'em, be independently wealthy [ *which is my plan, BTW ], or come from a rich family.

*Note: I'm still going for an MD, post financial independence because in the end, an MD can still do research while gaining respect in our society, as a clinician. A PhD is always seen as a tool.

Rin says

Go to a graduate school gathering and give your future prospects a challenge to develop a system with XYZ characteristics. Then, they can study the notes/coursebooks after hours, learn what they need to know, and finally try out for an internship at your company with the right background.

Agree.

Also, think about all the great mathematicians we have produced. And then realize that they all fall into four categories:

1. Employed by the financial industry to commit fraud in ways so elaborate that prosecution is too hard for the government to execute.
2. Employed by the NSA to spy on Americans and foreigners.
3. Paid just above the poverty line to teach math.
4. Unemployed or flipping burgers for minimum wage.

What a waste.

gsr says

Second, not all Chinese or Indians or Russians are great programmers, just the same way not all tall black guys are great basketball players. But we make this discriminatory choice all the time in our lives, based on our mindset. I don't think government should or can dictate who we hire.

Funny you mentioned Russians because reading through this thread could give people the impression that ALL H1 visa holders came from India or China.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887324874204578440901216478088-lMyQjAxMTAzMDIwNjEyNDYyWj.html

Dan8267 says

2. Employed by the NSA to spy on Americans and foreigners.

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer. Natl Sec takes care of its smart workers, providing addl training & long term benefits.

Wall St, Management Consulting, and other lame places are more about name dropping than anything real. "Oh, he's a big time quant from Princeton", as if that somehow encapsulates one's accomplishment and summarizes what one can do.

gsr says

Employers in general want flexibility.

Yet they post extremely specific job requirements and when no one person can be found that has every single one of those requirements, they claim there is a skills shortage.

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer.

I imagine they are only interested in a fairly narrow range of skills.

finehoe says

gsr says

Employers in general want flexibility.

Yet they post extremely specific job requirements and when no one person can be found that has every single one of those requirements, they claim there is a skills shortage.

BINGO!

I've heard complaints of employers putting out job ads demanding three years of experience in a programming language which had only existed for perhaps six months.

ÙNew Renter says

I've heard complaints of employers putting out job ads demanding three years of experience in a programming language which had only existed for perhaps six months.

If that's always the case, the talent can't be anywhere in the world. Employer goofing up on job descriptions has nothing to do restrictions on foreign recruits or lowering the cost of labor.

New Renter says

BINGO!

I am currently interviewing for a position where I work. The requisition that the corporate office has put out for the job wants the candidate to have fifteen years experience (which is more than I, who will be this person's boss, have), yet the salary they are offering is about half of what I make. The truth of the matter is, we could get a bright recent collage grad and train them for the position and everyone would be happy, but instead we get these over-qualified candidates who once they find out the pay, aren't interested.

So when I hear this line about "we can't find any qualified applicants" I think about what is going where I work and I can't help but wonder how many of these employers are doing the same thing: Setting the qualification bar way too high, low-balling the salary, and then crying because they can't find anyone.

New Renter says

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer.

I imagine they are only interested in a fairly narrow range of skills.

But that's just it; it's all in the "family".

Thus, one can take advance courses in let's say chemical engineering and while the team/group isn't exactly designing a chemical process, the agency will appreciate the graduate level education in the applied mathematics/sciences which can then only help the person's career track.

This is the opposite of let's say biotech, where any course not exactly within the confines of the work at hand, i.e. cell stability, separations, etc, is seen as superfluous and ppl then label STEM types as Math freaks, as oppose to fellow tech workers. And the same goes for IT, where courses outside of SA, databases, programming methods (du jour), are put down.

I'd say that my firm has adopted the NSA mentality. Our receptionist/secretary is doing a Masters in a Science, part-time, and plans to take the Patent Agent exam when it's over. We realize that we have a smart employee, who makes a great impression with the clients and thus, we want to retain her, while offering an exit strategy of her becoming a Patent examiner, if and when the current job ends.

gsr says

New Renter says

I've heard complaints of employers putting out job ads demanding three years of experience in a programming language which had only existed for perhaps six months.

If that's always the case, the talent can't be anywhere in the world. Employer goofing up on job descriptions has nothing to do restrictions on foreign recruits or lowering the cost of labor.

finehoe says

So when I hear this line about "we can't find any qualified applicants" I think about what is going where I work and I can't help but wonder how many of these employers are doing the same thing: Setting the qualification bar way too high, low-balling the salary, and then crying because they can't find anyone.

Or perhaps they have no desire to raise headcount but the company goes through the motions of a fake candidate search to appease their overworked staff. A friend of mine worked in a company which did just that.

hey how come no one has mentioned the "inconveniences" or "hidden costs" of hiring American workers beside the differences in wages?

such as too much politics, arguments, infighting because everyone is cocky, arrogant and has an ego the size of the moon?

or the fact that employers are much more likely to be sued for a paper cut happened at work?

or the fact that everyone believes they are ENTITLED to a house and a good job with no real degree and very little work (remember the free housing debacle recently? "strategic defaulters" who demand bailouts from Obama?)

how about union thugs protesting in front of your business making a big scene scaring away/harassing your potential customers?

fake injuries at work for worker comps?

i'm curious about the difference in cost of health insurance premiums between the two group as well. one is slim and the other one is...lets just say "not so slim" with all kinds of (potential) health problems (high cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes...the list goes on..)?

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer. Natl Sec takes care of its smart workers, providing addl training & long term benefits.

Unfortunately you have to do evil on the behalf of politicians and generals.

Mark D says

hey how come no one has mentioned the "inconveniences" or "hidden costs" of hiring American workers beside the differences in wages?

such as too much politics, arguments, infighting because everyone is cocky, arrogant and has an ego the size of the moon?

Not to mention trolling...

Mark D says

or the fact that everyone believes they are ENTITLED to a house and a good job with no real degree and very little work (remember the free housing debacle recently? "strategic defaulters" who demand bailouts from Obama?)

Which has nothing to do with the issue at hand here

Mark D says

how about union thugs protesting in front of your business making a big scene scaring away/harassing your potential customers?

Hahahhahaha, good one! When was the last time scientists and engineers did anything proactive like that?

Mark D says

fake injuries at work for worker comps?

Dude, we're not roofers!

Mark D says

i'm curious about the difference in cost of health insurance premiums between the two group as well. one is slim and the other one is...lets just say "not so slim" with all kinds of (potential) health problems (high cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes...the list goes on..)?

Ah the Chewbacca defense - Look at the silly monkey!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

Dan8267 says

Rin says

This is one of the best careers for scientists and engineers today, where one's education is actually valued by one's employer. Natl Sec takes care of its smart workers, providing addl training & long term benefits.

Unfortunately you have to do evil on the behalf of politicians and generals.

That has always been a part of STEM.

New Renter says

finehoe says

So when I hear this line about "we can't find any qualified applicants" I think about what is going where I work and I can't help but wonder how many of these employers are doing the same thing: Setting the qualification bar way too high, low-balling the salary, and then crying because they can't find anyone.

Or perhaps they have no desire to raise headcount but the company goes through the motions of a fake candidate search to appease their overworked staff. A friend of mine worked in a company which did just that.

These things are always possible. This does not mean all employers do that. This also does not have anything to do with getting cheap foreign labor.

Here is another thing. If you think all employers are fools, and they are wasting talents, you should go and set up your own company, and start hiring all of them. You can trying putting money where your mouth is.

gsr says

If you think all employers are fools, and they are wasting talents, you should go and set up your own company, and start hiring all of them. You can trying putting money where your mouth is.

Spoken like a true capitalist tool.

Mark D says

how come no one has mentioned the "inconveniences" or "hidden costs" of hiring American workers beside the differences in wages?

Maybe because we don't consider pay and conditions above third-world sweatshop conditions to be "inconveniences" or "hidden costs".

finehoe says

Spoken like a true capitalist tool.

This is supposed to be an insult? If not, it is redundant.

Perhaps you should suggest what would be your socialist solution. All I hear is this. 1 Banning foreigners from coming over to the country, and 2. Forcing companies to hire more, and relax the bar. I am sure that is a recipe for success, as it is in France.
Are you a lobbyist?

gsr says

hese things are always possible. This does not mean all employers do that. This also does not have anything to do with getting cheap foreign labor.

Here is another thing. If you think all employers are fools, and they are wasting talents, you should go and set up your own company, and start hiring all of them. You can trying putting money where your mouth is.

It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.

I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.

gsr says

Are you a lobbyist?

Are you? You sure talk like one.

gsr says

Perhaps you should suggest what would be your socialist solution. All I hear is this. 1 Banning foreigners from coming over to the country, and 2. Forcing companies to hire more, and relax the bar. I am sure that is a recipe for success, as it is in France.

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers. This myth has been debunked time and time again yet it continues to exist thanks to the vested interests of industry to keep labor costs down and academia who like their indentured servants.

The only person here suggesting Banning foreigners from coming over to the country, and 2. Forcing companies to hire more, and relax the bar. is you.

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

It's almost like they wanted to lower our wages through trickery!

CL says

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

It's almost like they wanted to lower our wages through trickery!

By any means necessary.

You ever worked with one of these so called experts (H-1B)? They are mostly good at BS'ing management.

New Renter says

That has always been a part of STEM.

But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

That has always been a part of STEM.

But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.

Consider yourself drafted...

New Renter says

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

That has always been a part of STEM.

But it is a voluntary part. I chose not to go into robotics because I knew the first applications would be military.

Consider yourself drafted...

Look at it this way... society is laughing at STEMs, including other STEMs who're cozy with management a/o MBA types. There's not much of a cohesive STEM club/society whereas the Marines watch each others' back out there in the field. Instead, STEMs side with MBAs because one day, they hope to be management themselves.

With that in mind, aside from Natl Sec (because I don't count later going to medical school, patent law, or prop trading to be true STEM calling), is it worth studying and working so hard to be at the bottom rungs of the white collar world, where an accountant, who'd dropped out of Calculus II [ since he obviously didn't want a 'D' on his transcript ], is calling the shots on your R&D cost center?

New Renter says

We are discussing the myth of a STEM worker shortage as a rationalization for increasing the number of guest workers.

I am contesting the fact why there is a limit in the first place. Tell me a good reason to have a limit in any country in the world for that matter.

New Renter says

It has everything to do with getting labor cheaply.

I never said employers were fools. Liars maybe but not fools.

A job is not an entitlement. If we agree they are not fools, and they want cheaper labor, then you understand that you would do the same if you were them.