patrick.net

Straw Man says

Idiot.

Of course, I'm an idiot for bringing up the fact, not my opinion, that the Ukrainian government shot down an airliner a decade ago.

Strategist says

The government can fool everyone else, but not us.

Of course! Because we can research this through grainy, shaky, YouTube videos and extremely blown-up JPEG's aliased to buggery, and discover the false-flag Zionism that is so blindingly obvious that no one else can see it!

Conspiracy theories are just theories.

What is happening in Gaza is tragic but practically nobody cares. Why should people care?

The rebels have no such airplanes, and the Ukranian government would be nuts to shoot down a Russian plane. And they have the capabilities to know what is up there. The rebels know the Ukranian military has planes, and the rebels lack appropriate tracking capability.

Call it Crazy says

and it takes the heat off of Obama and the Mexico border situation

Indeed, Obama needs to squirm out of that bill he signed in 2008.

Blurtman says

The rebels have no such airplanes, and the Ukranian government would be nuts to shoot down a Russian plane. And they have the capabilities to know what is up there. The rebels know the Ukranian military has planes, and the rebels lack appropriate tracking capability.

We don't know who is to blame yet, but you also don't know what equipment the rebels possess.

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

lostand confused says

Malaysian jet carrying 295 ppl crashes in Ukraine-near Russian border

CNN is excited to have something to talk about for endless hours again.

Plus, add in the Israel ground invasion, and it takes the heat off of Obama and the Mexico border situation...

We have a border situation? How come no one told me?

Whatever: I stand with Israel on this one.

HydroCabron says

Whatever: I stand with Israel on this one.

Best article I've seen thus far on this:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people

corntrollio says

HydroCabron says

Whatever: I stand with Israel on this one.

Best article I've seen thus far on this:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people

Don't like looking at pictures like that. That poor man is a victim of Hamas, just like Israel is. Israel has no need, and no benefit intentionally killing children. Hamas intentionally puts children in harms way, which is very easy to do since they don't value life, but value the 72 virgins they get to fuck 24/7.
Sick sick sick!

HydroCabron says

Whatever: I stand with Israel on this one.

You do realize what happened the last few "occupations." This won't end well for anybody. Glad I don't live in that part of the world.

lostand confused says

HydroCabron says

Whatever: I stand with Israel on this one.

You do realize what happened the last few "occupations." This won't end well for anybody. Glad I don't live in that part of the world.

I actually agree with you. Religious wars never end well for anyone.

Uh, I'm talking about Israel shooting down this plane.

On Gaza, Israel can blow me.

thunderlips11 says

Mish has a thread up about the Ukies shooting down a Siberian Airlines jet from Tel Aviv in 2001.

In that case, the Ukrainian Air Defense mistook it for a training drone and downed it, killing all aboard.

It's very possible they thought it was a Tu-22M or some such.

Sounds like it was the pro-Russian rebels that supposedly didn't have the ability to use this type of weapon. Perhaps the Russians trained them?? ya think?

tatupu70 says

Sounds like it was the pro-Russian rebels that supposedly didn't have the ability to use this type of weapon. Perhaps the Russians trained them?? ya think?

The Ukies also have the BUK system - and their AD is poorly coordinated. The DPR has yet to shoot down a plane over 6,000 meters.

thunderlips11 says

The Ukies also have the BUK system - and their AD is poorly coordinated.

Maybe, but that's irrelevant. Their leaders didn't take to social media to brag about shooting down a plane before realizing it was a commercial jet. Or have a phone conversation taped where they talk about their mistake.

thunderlips11 says

The DPR has yet to shoot down a plane over 6,000 meters.

Until yesterday, you mean?

tatupu70 says

Maybe, but that's irrelevant. Their leaders didn't take to social media to brag about shooting down a plane before realizing it was a commercial jet. Or have a phone conversation taped where they talk about their mistake.

The Ukie Gov't bloggers were blaming DPR within minutes.

tatupu70 says

Until yesterday, you mean?

Got evidence?

That audio file the Ukies are peddling has embedded date creation problems.

The Donbass is Russian, it was forced into Ukraine by the Soviets to balance out the Kulaks of Western Ukraine. Just like Crimea. The Donbass was Russian under Catherine the Great.

thunderlips11 says

Got evidence?

I believe my last post detailed the evidence. As well as the US tracing the missile launch to rebel controlled area.

Strategist says

Religious wars never end well for anyone.

It may be a religious war for Israel's enemies but it is an existential war for Israel. Perhaps this is why the Jewish state has been and will continue to be triumphant.

Those who reject this-worldly reality to embrace other-worldly promises are doomed to fail in life. Is the afterlife any good? The review is not available on Yelp!

tatupu70 says

I believe my last post detailed the evidence. As well as the US tracing the missile launch to rebel controlled area.

We'll find out soon enough.

You'll also notice how circumspect the usually Russophobic Admin is being - Putin chatted with Obama recently.

I suspect Russian AD - which can see deep into Europe - has some good evidence as well.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/who-is-to-blame-investigation-of-flight-mh17/374664/

This article has a video showing the rebels with a Buk launcher that is missing 2 missiles heading back into Russia...

thunderlips11 says

The Donbass is Russian, it was forced into Ukraine by the Soviets to balance out the Kulaks of Western Ukraine. Just like Crimea. The Donbass was Russian under Catherine the Great.

Parts of Russia used to be in Finland and Germany, and since I don't see Russia giving those back, why should Ukraine?

Ukraine should just round up all their Russians and march them across the Russian border. It's nothing that the Russians haven't already done many times over.

Peter P says

Perhaps this is why the Jewish state has been and will continue to be triumphant.

Silly me: I thought it was because Israel's enemies are frickin' disorganized, and because of the $3,000,000,000 in annual U.S. aid, totalling $115,000,000,000 cumulatively.

Do they have the radar and C3 systems (separate from the launcher), required to reasonably detect and shoot down targets at that altitude?

Also, do you think the Ukraine, worried about a possible Russian strike, no-fly zone, or even invasion, didn't place any BUKS along the Border?

Now the process of determining where the missile came from has begun. An unconfirmed video has emerged showing a pro-Russian group driving a 9K37 Buk-M1 SAM, a missile operating system which was developed by the Soviet Union and is designed to fight enemy aircraft, missiles, smart bombs, and unmanned aerial devices. The video allegedly shows the Buk-M1 driving back towards Russia yesterday, with two missiles missing from the system chamber. Here is the video in full:

Additional video obtained by the Daily Mail shows a similar vehicle moving the missiles into place.However, official confirmation has still not been received from intelligence officials.

I can't see anything in the video that ID's the drivers as DPR, or the destination. The DPR is apparently so well equipped, they even have flatbeds capable of carrying tracked SAM vehicles.

zzyzzx says

Parts of Russia used to be in Finland and Germany, and since I don't see Russia giving those back, why should Ukraine?

The difference is that those parts of Germany and Finland doesn't have an innate, Russian speaking minority.

The Donbass and Crimean People were never given a choice to either be attached to or leave Ukraine.

In recent times, the duly elected and world-recognized legitimate government they voted for was overthrown by $5B of US "Democracy" Promotion.

Also, those regions were never part of, or propagandized, by Austria into thinking of themselves other than Russian, unlike Western Ukraine.

Lvov, for example, was built by Poles and Jews who made a majority of the population in 1930s - where are they now, Bandera?

Peter P says

Strategist says

Religious wars never end well for anyone.

It may be a religious war for Israel's enemies but it is an existential war for Israel. Perhaps this is why the Jewish state has been and will continue to be triumphant.

Those who reject this-worldly reality to embrace other-worldly promises are doomed to fail in life. Is the afterlife any good? The review is not available on Yelp!

It may be an existential war for Israel, but not for the people of Israel. They can always come to America.
I still support Israel, not because God gave the land of Israel to them, but any victory on the part of Muslims over Israel will give added impetus to Muslims in other parts of the world to carry out even more violence.

thunderlips11 says

The difference is that those parts of Germany and Finland doesn't have an innate, Russian speaking minority.

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

thunderlips11 says

Do they have the radar and C3 systems (separate from the launcher), required to reasonably detect and shoot down targets at that altitude?

Also, do you think the Ukraine, worried about a possible Russian strike, no-fly zone, or even invasion, didn't place any BUKS along the Border?

lol--yes you can maintain your shadow of a doubt defense, but I think it's pretty clear that the vast proponderance of evidence points to Russian supplied rebels as shooting down the plane. Almost certainly it was a mistake, but that's one BIG eff up.

Strategist says

I still support Israel, not because God gave the land of Israel to them, but any victory on the part of Muslims over Israel will give added impetus to Muslims in other parts of the world to carry out even more violence.

You do realize that the whole place has been Islamic for 1400 years.

Do we give back America to the Indians, then?

tatupu70 says

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

tatupu70 says

thunderlips11 says

The difference is that those parts of Germany and Finland doesn't have an innate, Russian speaking minority.

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

Sure, the US invades other countries all the time for dominion, fun and profit. Russia at least has a somewhat legitimate reason for being interested in the Ukraine.

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

Agreed. People would argue though that those votes are forced and/or falsified. However, if Europe and the US would be truly interested in what the people of Crimea want, they would support a referendum, but they are fearful of the outcome, like the EU "leaders" (crooks) were when they stopped having referendum in countries constantly voting njet.

thunderlips11 says

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I just think that Russia should have to pay for it instead of stealing it, like they did with Crimea.

mell says

Sure, the US invades other countries all the time for dominion, fun and profit. Russia at least has a somewhat legitimate reason for being interested in the Ukraine.

How dare Russia not be concerned with what happens right over it's own border!

Whereas it's fine for the US to worry about what happens on the far side of the world...

And there is no political dimension to all of this...

Funny how the map above looks a lot like the first map at the top of this post.

Speaking of justice, have the Ukies settled the Odessa Trade Union deaths, yet? Where did the Police Chief run off too?

Strategist says

It may be an existential war for Israel, but not for the people of Israel. They can always come to America.

Organizational behavior works very different from individual behavior.

Moreover, people in Israel want to protect the essence, nature, and meaning of Israel. This also has a philosophical sense of existence. One that is above and beyond physical being.

thunderlips11 says

Lvov, for example, was built by Poles and Jews who made a majority of the population in 1930s - where are they now, Bandera?

Well, to be historically correct the blame goes to all: Germans, Ukrainians and Russians. First, Germans and Ukies killed the Jews, than Ukies started killing Poles (not in Lviv maybe, but outside of it in Eastern Galicia - Volynia Massacre), while Russians expelled remaining Poles after WWII.

Why are people so ethnic focused? I just fail to comprehend.

Capitalism cleanses the world of prejudice.

Peter P says

Why are people so ethnic focused? I just fail to comprehend.

It's more than ethnicity. A Moscow Cop makes $2000/month. A Ukrainian one $250/month.

Russia keeps key industries functioning at a loss. Ukraine is about to undergo IMF Austerity. If you were a Donbass resident, why not join the growing BRIC country that speaks your own language, rather than stay in a country with the GDP per head of Sri Lanka.

Not to mention, in the East, our glorious fathers in the Soviet Union destroyed the burning, looting, murdering Nazis. In the Western Ukraine, our Nazi friends and Glorious OUN fathers were defeated by the Commie Hordes!

thunderlips11 says

If you were a Donbass resident, why not join the growing BRIC country that speaks your own language, rather than stay in a country with the GDP per head of Sri Lanka.

Nobody is preventing them from moving to Russia.