patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

So what? Is that the standard now? If there's a minority that speaks a different language, another country is allowed to annex that property?

No, it's that a region that is forced by an authoritarian government to be forcibly annexed into another, should be allowed to vote itself out of the country it was forced into - specially if it happened within the lifetime of living people.

Gibraltar gets votes, why not Donbass?

Should Texas get to vote?

Peter P says

Did you guys know that the airframe of Flight 17 first flew on July 17, 1997, exactly 17 years before the crash on July 17, 2014.

July 17 also marked the anniversaries of TWA 800 and TAM 3054.

Perhaps numerology plays a significant role?

OMG. More evidence the Israelis did it.
I told you.

thunderlips11 says

We'll find out soon enough.

Do you agree now that it was the pro-Russian rebels?

komputodo says

tatupu70 says

thunderlips11 says

We'll find out soon enough.

Do you agree now that it was the pro-Russian rebels?

You and i will never know what REALLY happened..

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

tatupu70 says

komputodo says

tatupu70 says

thunderlips11 says

We'll find out soon enough.

Do you agree now that it was the pro-Russian rebels?

You and i will never know what REALLY happened..

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

No we don't.

Malaysians have got to have the world airline in the world. And I always though American Airlines was crap. This sure puts things in perspective. At least our planes don't go crashing or missing bimonthly.

komputodo says

Ah, to be so young and naive...

lol--it has nothing to do with young or naïve. It's more like old and experienced. Understanding that conspiracy theories are usually told to the simple minded to sell books. I tend to go with Occam's razor.

FortWayne says

Malaysians have got to have the world airline in the world. And I always though American Airlines was crap. This sure puts things in perspective. At least our planes don't go crashing or missing bimonthly.

I still can't get over the fact that comemrcial airlines are flying over war zones. I think I read that on that day something like 17 airplanes flew the same route??? I mean come on?? How much extra mileage would it be to fly around the war zone?? Must be some corporate accountant/MBA number crunching type who made them fly that route???

lostand confused says

FortWayne says

Malaysians have got to have the world airline in the world. And I always though American Airlines was crap. This sure puts things in perspective. At least our planes don't go crashing or missing bimonthly.

I still can't get over the fact that comemrcial airlines are flying over war zones. I think I read that on that day something like 17 airplanes flew the same route??? I mean come on?? How much extra mileage would it be to fly around the war zone?? Must be some corporate accountant/MBA number crunching type who made them fly that route???

Jet fuel costs money. More miles means higher cost.

Airline passengers are highly price-selective. If your competitors offer the same flight for $10 less, you lose.

Call it Crazy says

lostand confused says

How much extra mileage would it be to fly around the war zone?? Must be some corporate accountant/MBA number crunching type who made them fly that route???

Maybe it saves on having to give more frequent flyer miles to the passengers??

Best to check if your plane is going over a war zone, and not go if you're not sure.
Does LA count as a war zone?

HydroCabron says

Jet fuel costs money. More miles means higher cost.

Airline passengers are highly price-selective. If your competitors offer the same flight for $10 less, you lose.

Well it looks like some airlines took precautions and others choose to fly the dangerous route-probably for fuel savings. Which means their senior mgmt. probably looked at the risk and decided money was more important.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10975344/Asian-airlines-stopped-flying-over-Ukraine-months-ago.html

tatupu70 says

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

If there was any clear evidence, the US/NATO would be out with it already - even the Ukie ATC should have pretty good evidence without revealing radar/sat capabilities.

Don't expect the US to say "I'm sorry, Russia or DPR, for accusing you without evidence." Even if the State Dept and Admin and Congress *know* it wasn't DPR/Russia, they'll keep beating the drums.

I recall Yellowcake, the assertion 2003 Iraq could use Chemicals within minutes, and of course Syria. Not to mention the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

lostand confused says

Well it looks like some airlines took precautions and others choose to fly the dangerous route-probably for fuel savings. Which means their senior mgmt. probably looked at the risk and decided money was more important.

Especially since their stock took a nosedive because of the other crash, they were probably desperate to save every dime. However, Ukie ATC still has explaining to do.

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

Uh, I'm pretty sure we will. In fact, I'm pretty sure we already do.

If there was any clear evidence, the US/NATO would be out with it already - even the Ukie ATC should have pretty good evidence without revealing radar/sat capabilities.

Don't expect the US to say "I'm sorry, Russia or DPR, for accusing you without evidence." Even if the State Dept and Admin and Congress *know* it wasn't DPR/Russia, they'll keep beating the drums.

I recall Yellowcake, the assertion 2003 Iraq could use Chemicals within minutes, and of course Syria. Not to mention the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

The group that is covering up the evidence is the guilty party - Ukrainian rebels.
The group that is supporting the guilty party is just as guilty - Russia and Putin

Strategist says

.

The group that is covering up the evidence is the guilty party - Ukrainian rebels.

The group that is supporting the guilty party is just as guilty - Russia and Putin

Really? Where is the Ukie ATC records? Seized by SBU and not seen since.

The only evidence provided so far by the MediaMIC complex is a grainy Youtube video of a BUK system being transported by flatbed over country roads, no insignia or markers as to who it belongs to.

Apparently, social media assertions and an unprovenced youtube video are evidence.

Compare that to the Russian Press Conference, complete with pictures of the mysterious removal of Ukrainian BUKS the day after the shootdown. Plus radar showing a Ukie Su25 flying towards MH17.

The question is, where is the US NATO Radar and Satellite, and the Ukrainian ATC records?

Its Yellowcake Part Two. As Jen Psaki said, there are no refugees, tens of thousands of people are just suddenly deciding to visit relatives in Russia. Also, 70 others died to today in Gaza. Damn Others, where do they come from? How did all these Arabs immigrate to Israel in the past decade or so?

Enjoy the media these days, its a one sided desperate attempt to tell more blackwhite goodevil Empire Stories. When I get sad, I think George Carlin and having a front row seat to the circus.

thunderlips11 says

Compare that to the Russian Press Conference, complete with pictures of the mysterious removal of Ukrainian BUKS the day after the shootdown. Plus radar showing a Ukie Su25 flying towards MH17.

They are creating a circus because they are being held responsible. Obama is clearly blaming the rebels, and it's common knowledge the rebels are being supported by Putin.

thunderlips11 says

Also, 70 others died to today in Gaza. Damn Others, where do they come from? How did all these Arabs immigrate to Israel in the past decade or so?

They have been there for generations and will naturally have certain rights. Land ownership the world over has continuously changed over time. If I was an Israeli or a Palestinian I would just leave the crazy place. My family is more important then land. But for Hamas to do what it does is not acceptable. I blame Hamas.

Strategist says

They are creating a circus because they are being held responsible. Obama is clearly blaming the rebels, and it's common knowledge the rebels are being supported by Putin.

Accusations are not evidence. The Russians are not accepting responsibility because there is nothing to show they are responsible.

As for the rebels, they are supported by Putin the same way the recent Putsch was supported by the US.

When Svoboda and Right Sektor thugs shot at police and demonstrators (several police were killed by Ukie ultranationalist brownshirts), the US sternly warned Viktor Yushchenko not to use violence. Now, the Ukraine is using plenty of violence against civilians, and not a peep from the State Department. Nice Double Standard!
Strategist says

They have been there for generations and will naturally have certain rights. Land ownership the world over has continuously changed over time.

Too bad the Palestinians didn't have a Lou Dobbs on their side back in the day.

Ah, here is the Russian Press Briefing. Don't expect to see it in the US/UK MSM.

http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/ECD62987D4816CA344257D1D00251C76

After all, the Russians must be lying because the MSM says Russia always lies.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

They have been there for generations and will naturally have certain rights. Land ownership the world over has continuously changed over time.

Point taken. We stole everything from the native Americans. But now what? Americans today have nothing to do with what happened in the past. Most Americans came well after the genocide. Today's Americans cannot be held responsible.
As for Israel, I really don't care who gets Israel. Today's Israel consists of both Jews and Muslims. It's just religions. Who cares what people call themselves.
Intentionally targeting children is what I will never ever accept.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

They are creating a circus because they are being held responsible. Obama is clearly blaming the rebels, and it's common knowledge the rebels are being supported by Putin.

Accusations are not evidence. The Russians are not accepting responsibility because there is nothing to show they are responsible.

As for the rebels, they are supported by Putin the same way the recent Putsch was supported by the US.

When Svoboda and Right Sektor thugs shot at police and demonstrators (several police were killed by Ukie ultranationalist brownshirts), the US sternly warned Viktor Yushchenko not to use violence. Now, the Ukraine is using plenty of violence against civilians, and not a peep from the State Department. Nice Double Standard!

Common sense shows the rebels are responsible. Evidence will undoubtedly follow. The Russians are cornered, I can tell you that.

Strategist says

Point taken. We stole everything from the native Americans. But now what? Americans today have nothing to do with what happened in the past. Most Americans came well after the genocide. Today's Americans cannot be held responsible.

Yes, today's Americans don't confine Indians to reservations. Indians vote in the same elections with everybody else.

Can Palestinians vote in Israeli elections, can they travel freely anywhere in Israel-Palestine without special Israeli government permission and without Palestinian-only checkpoints?

Strategist says

Common sense shows the rebels are responsible. Evidence will undoubtedly follow. The Russians are cornered, I can tell you that.

Can you amplify this remark? What gains Russia or the Rebels to shoot down a civilian airliner?

The Russians aren't cornered, in fact, once again Putin turned the tables on American encirclement and aggression in Eurasia. By giving press conferences, turning over the black boxes, guiding the Malaysian investigators, Russia and the Donbass Freedom Fighters are showing good faith.

In contrast to what US Politicians, the lapdog MSM, and their Banderastan are demonstrating - nothing but empty accusations.

Again, the Ukies still haven't released their ATC recordings and tracking, which was confiscated by SBU (Ukie "Intel") days ago.

The immediate question is, where are the Ukie ATC recordings and why are they not being released?

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

Common sense shows the rebels are responsible. Evidence will undoubtedly follow. The Russians are cornered, I can tell you that.

Can you amplify this remark? What gains Russia or the Rebels to shoot down a civilian airliner?

Russia does not gain, which is why I know they did not do it. The rebels do not gain either, as it hurts their cause, but they screwed up. Now their cause is wounded. Too bad.

thunderlips11 says

Can Palestinians vote in Israeli elections, can they travel freely anywhere in Israel-Palestine without special Israeli government permission and without Palestinian-only checkpoints?

Don't they have to be citizens of Israel first? The Israeli Arabs can vote.
Why would Israel allow a people that hates them to freely travel in Israel? Do you think this problem would even arise if Hamas was destroyed?
The world can solve all the major problems there by destroying Hamas.

Strategist says

Why would Israel allow a people that hates them to freely travel in Israel? Do you think this problem would even arise if Hamas was destroyed?

The world can solve all the major problems there by destroying Hamas.

Why do the Palestinians hate Israel? Because European Jews took over their land. Only about 10% of 1947 Israel was Jewish owned. It was a land grab.

King David Hotel Bombing - an act of terrorism. Deir Yassin - which Albert Einstein condemned. And many, many others - and not just by Irgun.

By destroying the Israeli state, born of silly 19th Century Nationalism, we can eliminate a huge problem. Jews should get land in Bavaria instead, which is what Theodor Hertzl actually wanted (he hated Jerusalem).

komputodo says

Strategist says

Russia does not gain, which is why I know they did not do it. The rebels do not gain either, as it hurts their cause, but they screwed up. Now their cause is wounded. Too bad.

So according to you, the russians didn't shoot it down. The rebels unintentionally shot it down? Any reason why the ukrianians didn't shoot it down? Please enlighten us..

It does not benefit them either. They have no motive. Like the Russians, they are fully capable of identifying civilian aircraft. They need permission to fly over other countries. The rebels are not likely to have that information.

Strategist says

It does not benefit them either. They have no motive. Like the Russians, they are fully capable of identifying civilian aircraft. They need permission to fly over other countries. The rebels are not likely to have that information.

Why did the Ukie ATC allow the plane to fly over Donetsk? Why did Ukie ATC order the plane to fly lower? Why did the Ukies pull all their BUKs out of the Donbass the day after the incident?

Why haven't Ukie ATC records been released yet?

Why are Ukie Sukhois still shelling and strafing the crash site, even when Malay investigators are present?

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

Why would Israel allow a people that hates them to freely travel in Israel? Do you think this problem would even arise if Hamas was destroyed?

The world can solve all the major problems there by destroying Hamas.

Why do the Palestinians hate Israel? Because European Jews took over their land. Only about 10% of 1947 Israel was Jewish owned. It was a land grab.

King David Hotel Bombing - an act of terrorism. And many others.

By destroying the Israeli state, born of silly 19th Century Nationalism, we can eliminate a huge problem. Jews should get land in Bavaria instead, which is what Theodor Hertzl actually wanted (he hated Jerusalem).

Israel claims it's their land. It's a land dispute. Who the hell cares.
I do know Hamas is a terrorist organization, who threaten my children because they are American Infidels. I do not appreciate that. I have no reason to support them.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

It does not benefit them either. They have no motive. Like the Russians, they are fully capable of identifying civilian aircraft. They need permission to fly over other countries. The rebels are not likely to have that information.

Why did the Ukie ATC allow the plane to fly over Donetsk? Why did Ukie ATC order the plane to fly lower? Why did the Ukies pull all their BUKs out of the Donbass the day after the incident?

Why hasn't Ukie ATC records been released yet?

No idea. If you are blaming the Ukie, where is your evidence?

Strategist says

Israel claims it's their land. It's a land dispute. Who the hell cares.

Fine. Then let's stop funding Israel.

Strategist says

I do know Hamas is a terrorist organization, who threaten my children because they are American Infidels. I do not appreciate that. I have no reason to support them.

Hamas and Hizbollah have never targeted Americans.

Strategist says

No idea. If you are blaming the Ukie, where is your evidence?

The Russians have come forward with their stuff. The Rebels don't have an ATC or any kind of organized Air Defence. But the Ukies and/or NATO have ATC, Air Defence, and Satellite imagery, so where's the beef already?

What are they waiting for?

Common sense says the side that delays handing over their "evidence", while loudly accusing the other side of malfeasance, is probably the bad egg.

If the US or Ukraine had anything evidence worth a damn, it would have been released days ago.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

Israel claims it's their land. It's a land dispute. Who the hell cares.

Fine. Then let's stop funding Israel.

I'm afraid if the Palestinians win, Islamists all over the world will see it as a sign from their Allah to escalate terrorism everywhere. We really do not need their crap. They need to be controlled. You engage in terrorism, you face the consequence of defeat, plain and simple.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

I do know Hamas is a terrorist organization, who threaten my children because they are American Infidels. I do not appreciate that. I have no reason to support them.

Hamas and Hizbollah have never targeted Americans.

To me all Islamists are the same. Nothing but trouble. We have to expel them from this planet.

komputodo says

Strategist says

No idea. If you are blaming the Ukie, where is your evidence?

Don't you get it? None of us has any real evidence and we never will. It's all just speculation. Something to talk about.

Yet. Eventually we will have the evidence. Common sense says it's the rebels.

komputodo says

Strategist says

Yet. Eventually we will have the evidence. Common sense says it's the rebels.

Sure you will, when katie couric puts on her smart glasses and reads it to you off her teleprompter..

Obviously, common sense seems to be in short supply

I'm seeing that now.
You expect all the evidence to come out instantly? Our guys don't even have full access, thanks to the rebels in control.

Strategist says

To me all Islamists are the same. Nothing but trouble. We have to expel them from this planet.

Hizbollah don't like Salafyi or Wahabism terrorist nuts or the rest of the terror-exporting Gulf States. The Wahabi scum call them "Hezboshaytan", or "Hezbo-Satan".

The Shi'a aren't exporting terrorism, it's our "Friend" Saudi Arabia, along with Qatar, that are the primary financiers of terrorism from Afghanistan to Sudan to Nigeria.

Yellowcake. We have 30 minutes before a Chemical Attack by SCUDs. The USS Maddox was attacked by Torpedo Boats. The War will be paid for with Iraqi Oil. The Lusitania's July cargo of Unfrigerated Butter, Lard, and Furs from Dupont Corporation was not a euphemism. The School of the Americas doesn't teach torture. The release of the hostages before the election was a coincidence. We didn't help Saddam get chemical weapons. The F-35 is going to be the greatest aircraft ever built. The AV-8B and OV-22 aren't flying coffins. The Big Dig will come in under budget, along with the Littoral Combat Ship. Cops are your friends, only criminals want to take your rights. Mission Accomplished. Eat a high carb, low fat diet to fight obesity and diabetes. Cash is old fashioned. You can have it all. I got rich by building up companies and creating wealth and jobs. They're not refugees, they're just visiting relatives across the border. How dare Brazil charge so much for a Visa! Fracking will allow us to export LNG. We're only looking at the metadata of foreign agents.

thunderlips11 says

The Rebels don't have an ATC or any kind of organized Air Defence.

They have full infrastructure of Russian air defense forces at their disposal: the plane has been shot down ~50 km from the border which is well within radio link distance (they also can link by phone and even telegraph lines). BUK is capable of receiving guidance from long-distance radar systems. In fact, the SOP is to receive external guidance and use its own rudimentary guidance system for backup only when there is no link.

Straw Man says

They have full infrastructure of Russian air defense forces at their disposal: the plane has been shot down ~50 km from the border which is well within radio link distance (they also can link by phone and even telegraph lines). BUK is capable of receiving guidance from long-distance radar systems. In fact, the SOP is to receive external guidance and use its own rudimentary guidance system for backup when there is no link.

Prior to this, have the Rebels shot anything down outside of MANPAD range? Nope.

Prior to this, has the Ukie Military shot down civilian aircraft by mistake in recent years*? Yep.

Did Ukie have BUKs in the Donbass Region? Yep.

Did those Ukie BUKs have direct radar and guidance vehicles a few meters away from them? Yep.

Did the alleged Rebel BUKs have direct radar and guidance systems hooked up a few meters away? Nope.

Why did the Ukie BUKs disappear the very next day from their positions? No Idea.

Why did Ukie ATC allow the plane to fly over a War Zone?
Why did Ukie ATC order MH17 to fly lower over the war zone?
Why haven't Ukie ATC records been released yet? SBU took them within hours.
Why was a Ukie Su-25 climbing towards MH17?

* and spent 8 days denying it.

thunderlips11 says

Prior to this, have the Rebels shot anything down outside of MANPAD range? Nope

Yes, AN-26 on July 14th at 22000ft. And bragged on the net that it was done with direct guidance from Russia. If you read Russian, read this guy, for example: https://yurasumy.livejournal.com/112924.html?thread=16320540

Pay attention to this fragment:

"Сегодня у ополченцев состоялось боевое крещение новых мощных систем ПВО "Бук" (Ан-26). Не видели? Ну вот и хорошо, что не видели. Зато они кого надо, того увидели и "угостили". Теперь на высоте не скроешься. Даже несколько "Буков", при надлежащей,невидимой (ну не видимы радиолучи из России) информационной поддержке могут надежно прикрыть небо республик в зоне боев (дальность 20 км, высота 16 км).
Поясняю: РЛС стоят в России, возле границы. "Светят" цели для "Буков" постоянно. Ответки не боятся. Почти полигонные условия."

Do you want me translate this or you can do it yourself?

komputodo says

Strategist says

Yet. Eventually we will have the evidence. Common sense says it's the rebels.

So you are saying that you actually believe what they tell you on the NEWS? That's ok if you do, I am not judging, just curious..

You are actually believing what the Russian media is saying. Are we being hypocritical here? I'm not judging either.
You don't have to dismiss everything the media says, just because they say it. They could be right too.

thunderlips11 says

Yellowcake. We have 30 minutes before a Chemical Attack by SCUDs. The USS Maddox was attacked by Torpedo Boats. The War will be paid for with Iraqi Oil. The Lusitania's July cargo of Unfrigerated Butter, Lard, and Furs from Dupont Corporation was not a euphemism. The School of the Americas doesn't teach torture. The release of the hostages before the election was a coincidence. We didn't help Saddam get chemical weapons. The F-35 is going to be the greatest aircraft ever built. The AV-8B and OV-22 aren't flying coffins. The Big Dig will come in under budget, along with the Littoral Combat Ship. Cops are your friends, only criminals want to take your rights. Mission Accomplished. Eat a high carb, low fat diet to fight obesity and diabetes. Cash is old fashioned. You can have it all. I got rich by building up companies and creating wealth and jobs.

I'm worried about you Thunderlips, what web sites have you been visiting?

thunderlips11 says

Prior to this, have the Rebels shot anything down outside of MANPAD range? Nope.

Prior to this, has the Ukie Military shot down civilian aircraft by mistake in recent years*? Yep.

Did Ukie have BUKs in the Donbass Region? Yep.

Did those Ukie BUKs have direct radar and guidance vehicles a few meters away from them? Yep.

Did the alleged Rebel BUKs have direct radar and guidance systems hooked up a few meters away? Nope.

Why did the Ukie BUKs disappear the very next day from their positions? No Idea.

So what....That's not proof of anything.thunderlips11 says

Why did Ukie ATC allow the plane to fly over a War Zone?

Why did Ukie ATC order MH17 to fly lower over the war zone?

Why haven't Ukie ATC records been released yet? SBU took them within hours.

Why was a Ukie Su-25 climbing towards MH17?

Who know. Still not evidence.