patrick.net

Rin says

New Renter says

luxury food courts

Well, I don't have a problem with nice food courts. And I don't believe that they can't make 'em cheaply.

As for rec centers ... I say, buy some dumbbells and screw that.

FAncy rec cetners don't exlain it. They already own the land. They can amortize it over 40 years. Sure it costs something, but it doesn't account for such crazy tuition hikes. And all the while they are paying half of what they used to pay for professors.

At the state schools it's because it's not subsidized by the states as much. Part of the REagan revolution was shifting government costs back to the state level,

I don't know. I've heard it's the administrative salaries. NOt just how much they've gone up, but the increase in the entire administrative bureaucracy. I still say it doesn't make sense though.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-14/bureaucrats-paid-250-000-feed-outcry-over-college-costs.html

Purdue has a $313,000-a-year acting provost and six vice and associate vice provosts, including a $198,000 chief diversity officer. It employs 16 deans and 11 vice presidents, among them a $253,000 marketing officer and a $433,000 business school chief.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323316804578161490716042814

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemberoctober_2011/features/administrators_ate_my_tuition031641.php?page=all

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/06/higher-ed-administrators-growth_n_4738584.html

http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/administrative-bloat-american-universities-real-reason-high-costs-higher-education

etc, etc, etc....

Great work if you can get it, I guess.

jazz music says

Your point is not made as it applies to engineers. A Phd will be a strong asset to the credibility of an independent consulting engineer and Phds in the corporate setting will commonly be used in high-profile positions to enhance the image of huge business proposals, and interface with key customer technical contacts.

In other words, it's a finishing school type of award.

Right now, once my equity is bought out in this hedge fund, I could attend a PhD program in chemical engineering, since I have the prerequisite credentials. A bunch of folks can later hire me, even though I don't need the salary anymore, as their CTO, and then, we can sell ourselves as tech leaders/specialists.

Rin says

New Renter says

luxury food courts

Well, I don't have a problem with nice food courts. And I don't believe that they can't make 'em cheaply.

Nope, no reason at all food courts can't be attractive, functional and inexpensive, especially when as Marcus points out the university already owns the land.

HOWEVER

My experience in witnessing the construction of a prominent campus building elucidated for me the magnitude of the bureaucracy involved in such a project. Committee after committee and everyone with many layers of sillyness from each. We ended up with a less than optimally functional yet VERY expensive, energy intensive building completed just in time for the rolling blackouts of 2003.

The best part was when the dean decided to try to raise funding by selling the naming rights to the building. There were no takers.

The students also voted for a very expensive new rec center to be constructed. They were cutting edge 2001 tech with several *gasp* large plasma TV's in the foyer.

Seriously, WHY the F*CK does anyone need $20k worth of energy gulping plasma TV's just to to show static announcements?

Your tax, tuition and donation dollars at work folks.

jazz music says

Rin says

The point is that there is no demand for a PhD

Your point is not made as it applies to engineers. A Phd will be a strong asset to the credibility of an independent consulting engineer and Phds in the corporate setting will commonly be used in high-profile positions to enhance the image of huge business proposals, and interface with key customer technical contacts.

But are employers actually PAYING for those credentials?

Are newly minted, no-postdoc Ph.Ds being actively recruited with multiple, highly lucrative offers?

Rin says

engineer is really an experienced MS level educated person, who'd done some extra work

There is a hell of a lot to be said getting your 'advanced' degree from the school of hard knocks or at least the real world. We were working on a bridge, it was a retro-fit. There were some real issues regarding the top of the structure where the mechanism which raised and lower the bridge wasn't working as the engineers planned/drew the plans. We had a two hour round table session where all the engineers (about six of them), the lead men for the contractor and some other principle workers talked about the solution. In the end, one fellow who only had a high school diploma but had been a welder for eight years and a crane operator; who had actually been up and looked at the problem himself was the one who came up with the solution. If we'd waited for the pencil and paper engineers to figure it out, we'd still have the problem. Not enough credit is given to experience any more.

Peter P says

Fortunately, I decided to stay in California.

Fortunately??? While I'm not keen on the Ivy League nonsense, I hope the decision to stay in CA doesn't come back to bite you in the rear. What is fortunate is that somewhere down the road, when you come to your senses, you still can leave and find a better life elsewhere.

FortWayne says

I know several teachers. Some teach middle school, some elementary. They all live in expensive houses, drive reasonable cars... no clunkers there, go on vacations a lot, and their retirement is secure with a pension.

Most teachers I know work a second job over the summer. Teachers salaries are public record. Post the salaries and the school district to back this up. Let's see how their teachers salaries are paying for expensive houses and lots of vacations. That is if you're not talking out your ass.

New Renter says

Are newly minted, no-postdoc Ph.Ds being actively recruited with multiple, highly lucrative offers?

Absolutely, if they are from india and are willing to work 90 hours a week for 30k.

bob2356 says

New Renter says

Are newly minted, no-postdoc Ph.Ds being actively recruited with multiple, highly lucrative offers?

Absolutely, if they are from india and are willing to work 90 hours a week for 30k.

That's a post-doc.

New Renter says

The best part was when the dean decided to try to raise funding by selling the naming rights to the building. There were no takers.

There's the problem.

Deans used to be long-time educators rewarded for 20-30 years of service. Today they're professionals who have hardly set one foot in a classroom or done any research of their own. They stick around for 1-3 years, write handsome memos, slap each other on the back, go to conferences where they network for their next job.

Deans and Senior U. Admins are the C-Suite of the Academic World. Their offices are quiet because they're either on vacation, networking at a conference, or surfing the net looking for their next job.

The number and pay of senior admins at universities has exploded simultaneously with the switch to adjunct professors, outsourced staff, etc.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/02/universities-are-cutting-tenured-faculty-while-they-load-non-academic-administrators/357858/

thunderlips11 says

Deans and Senior U. Admins are the C-Suite of the Academic World. Their offices are quiet because they're either on vacation, networking at a conference, or surfing the net looking for their next job.

Or playing golf. Lotta golf.

“They’ve increased their hiring of part-time faculty to try and cut costs,” said Donna Desrochers, a principal researcher at the Delta Cost Project, which studies higher-education spending. “Yet other factors that are going on, including the hiring of these other types of non-academic employees, have undercut those savings.”

Part-time faculty and teaching assistants now account for half of instructional staffs at colleges and universities, up from one-third in 1987, the figures show.

During the same period, the number of administrators and professional staff has more than doubled. That’s a rate of increase more than twice as fast as the growth in the number of students.
...
Rather than improving productivity as measured by the ratio of employees to students, private universities have seen their productivity decline, adding 12 employees per 1,000 full-time students since 1987, the federal figures show.

“While the rest of the economy was shrinking overhead, higher education was investing heavily in more overhead,” said Robert Martin, an economist specializing in university finance at Centre College in Kentucky who said staffing per students is a valid way to judge efficiency improvements or declines.

The ratio of nonacademic employees to faculty has also doubled. There are now two nonacademic employees at public and two and a half at private universities and colleges for every one full-time, tenure-track member of the faculty.

I can't track down the citation, but I'm certain these are the numbers:

Between 1970 and 2000, the total increase in student tuition at MIT is exactly equal to the increased salary load of additional administrative positions created during that time.

Universities have become corporate structures. The disease usually begins with the hiring of a director of development, and progresses from there. My best guess is that by about 1980, all university presidents were full-time fundraisers for the endowment, which put pressure on the few (at the time) deans below them, which resulted in the creation of more deans, and so on.

The need for constant fundraising created a culture of sales in isolation from the actual mission of the university.

And then the following occurs:

Factor I.—An official wants to multiply subordinates, not rivals; and

Factor II.—Officials make work for each other.

We must now examine these motive forces in turn.

The Law of Multiplication of Subordinates

To comprehend Factor I, we must picture a civil servant called A who finds himself overworked. Whether this overwork is real or imaginary is immaterial; but we should observe, in passing, that A's sensation (or illusion) might easily result from his own decreasing energy—a normal symptom of middle-age. For this real or imagined overwork there are, broadly speaking, three possible remedies

(1) He may resign.

(2) He may ask to halve the work with a colleague called B.

(3) He may demand the assistance of two subordinates, to be called C and D.

There is probably no instance in civil service history of A choosing any but the third alternative.

HydroCabron says

Universities have become corporate structures. The disease usually begins with the hiring of a director of development, and progresses from there. My best guess is that by about 1980, all university presidents were full-time fundraisers for the endowment, which put pressure on the few (at the time) deans below them, which resulted in the creation of more deans, and so on.

Everyone wants to build an an empire of cronies. That's what's really happening.

marcus says

HOw is it that the cost of a college education has gone up so much, at the same time that they are spending so much less on professors ?

Seriously. This is fucked up.

I get what you are saying, but it's just business. Cost is driven up to the maximum client is willing to pay. And government subsidies sure help that.

If you don't want to put yourself into debt, tough shit... government makes it almost impossible to be fiscally responsible when it comes to education.

mmmarvel says

Not enough credit is given to experience any more.

I beg to differ, I'd say all credit is given to experience.

Industry wants plug and play, on demand and only for as long as needed. The consideration list will look like this:

1) Someone already in the hiring manager's own Rolodex that the manager knows can solve the problems.
2) Someone in the Rolodex of a team member who is known can solve the problems.
3) Someone external who advertises direct, hands on, real world experience in solving similar problems
4) Homeless guy who probably can't solve the problem but will work for food. Put enough monkeys on the job and all that.

The ABSOLUTE LAST person to be considered will be a fresh graduate, unless its for unpaid internship.

FortWayne says

If you don't want to put yourself into debt, tough shit... government makes it almost impossible to be fiscally responsible when it comes to education.

Rin has already provided the solution to that problem - online distance learning courses.

Also avoid any field that requires an advanced degree as the barrier to entry.

FortWayne says

And government subsidies sure help that.

Well public institutions are experiencing lots of funding cuts, which drives up costs of tuition AND inspires the growth of business (not academic) minded administrators who, in the name of fund raising, suck up all funds available for payroll by creating admin positions for themselves and their friends.

My opinion is that those who directly interact with students should be funded by tuition and tax revenues. Those who never speak with a student (ie most admin) should be funded by private dollars.

New Renter says

Also avoid any field that requires an advanced degree as the barrier to entry.

I'm not down with the "banging escorts" part which seems to attach to this around here - to each his own, I guess - but this strikes me as really true.

The most interesting and productive individuals I have met who were born before 1930 had associates or bachelor's degrees, and in more than one case would have done better to avoid college anyway - and these are people in highly intellectual and skilled professions.

There's an interesting pattern I have noticed: as soon as universities create a department of a certain field, the field stagnates. Most of the great artists existed before art departments. All the great composers, fewer than a half-dozen exceptions, lived before the era of music departments. Film studies became a discipline, and movies have sucked since. Karl Friedrich Gauss and Einstein did all their work before they joined the university, or in spite of it. Now that literature and composition programs are everywhere, both literature and composition are shit.

Mozart would never get tenure in a music department because he would be too busy outproducing his peers by a factor of 1000.

HydroCabron says

There's an interesting pattern I have noticed: as soon as universities create a department of a certain field, the field stagnates. Most of the great artists existed before art departments. All the great composers, fewer than a half-dozen exceptions, lived before the era of music departments. Film studies became a discipline, and movies have sucked since. Karl Friedrich Gauss and Einstein did all their work before they joined the university, or in spite of it. Now that literature and composition programs are everywhere, both literature and composition are shit.

Like Physics? Chemistry? Biology?

Those fields have exploded in the time since universities have had such departments.

HydroCabron says

Mozart would never get tenure in a music department because he would be too busy outproducing his peers by a factor of 1000

Still, Mozart had patronage from the Emperor and other independently wealthy types. And none of these wealthy characters had control over what Mozart wrote (since they weren't composers themselves), aside from the 'Marriage of Figaro' which was dubbed too politically incendiary.

And that's the point ... the academy is an institution. A person there is under the auspices of the administration and various grant committees, public or private. Thus, you play by their rules, not yours.

What ppl need is to be independently wealthy. That was my idea for the science and engineering sponsorship/welfare state.

New Renter says

Rin has already provided the solution to that problem - online distance learning courses.

And lab work can be done ala carte, which reduces the need for actual physical facilities.

Plus, each lab course should have prerequisites where ppl actually study the equipment, protocols, etc, before even starting the lab. That's been one of my pet peeves, as I didn't know much about a spectrometer, until I saw it for the first time. Same for the distillation tower and extruder. This eliminates the time wasted, getting students up to speed on the basics. Instead, students should enter the lab, ready to perform their tasks and ask more specific questions about calibration sensitivity, etc. It's a lot easier to teach techniques, once the basics are memorized ahead of time.

The availability of financial aid increased access which increased the price since there are only so many spaces available at the universities.

But a bigger issue I think is flat pricing of majors regardless of future employment prospects. Combine that with belief that one needs to go to college to be successful and a wrong signal is sent to the prospect. They may erroneously conclude that spending tons of money on a degree is a good investment regardless of future marketability of that major.

New Renter says

Those fields have exploded in the time since universities have had such departments.

Don't ruin my generalization with data!

When I taught adult education for LAUSD, making over 100 k per year, I turned down a job to teach for UCLA because they could not match my pay, retirement and benefits package.
Oh, and we all complained we did not make enough money, and we even for unemployment for the 8 weeks we were off each year.
The secret is, when they reject you, reapply and say I am available to work, but there is none available, and you win every time!

casandra says

and we even for unemployment for the 8 weeks we were off each year.

The secret is, when they reject you, reapply and say I am available to work, but there is none available, and you win every time!

English much?

Rin says

New Renter says

Rin has already provided the solution to that problem - online distance learning courses.

And lab work can be done ala carte, which reduces the need for actual physical facilities.

I didn't know much about a spectrometer, until I saw it for the first time. Same for the distillation tower and extruder.

Ironic since your eyes are themselves imaging spectrophotometers. The distillation tower? Your hillbilly cousins could have taught you all you need to know.

As for the extruder...you already had a lifetime of experience before you ever set foot in that lab!

New Renter says

The distillation tower? Your hillbilly cousins could have taught you all you need to know.

Uncle of Jesse of the Dukes of Hazzard was suppose to make the best moonshine during prohibition.

Rin says

New Renter says

The distillation tower? Your hillbilly cousins could have taught you all you need to know.

Uncle of Jesse of the Dukes of Hazzard was suppose to make the best moonshine during prohibition.

And let's not forget the legacy of Daisy Duke on the fashion industry:

Another one for your "to do" list...

New Renter says

And let's not forget the legacy of Daisy Duke on the fashion industry:

Another one for your "to do" list...

It would have been if I didn't have Jennifer Lopez and Sofia Vergara look-a-likes, down in Brazil. Right now, I'm on the look out for an Olivia Wilde.

Rin says

It would have been if I didn't have Jennifer Lopez and Sofia Vergara look-a-likes, down in Brazil. Right now, I'm on the look out for an Olivia Wilde.

Do you have a limited number of slots on the "to do" list?

Can"t a young, hot Daisy Duke be on there along with Oliva Wilde, Billie Piper, and Markie Post?

New Renter says

Do you have a limited number of slots on the "to do" list?

Can"t a young, hot Daisy Duke be on there along with Oliva Wilde, Billie Piper, and Markie Post?

It's about priorities. Sure, if an accidental Daisy falls into my lap, it's not like I'm going to complain. The thing is that once you put in the combo of J Lo/Sofia V, down in Brazil, the Latin bombshell thing is satisfied and afterwards, it becomes de-prioritized. Daisy is a Latin bombshell in Southern fatigues, so it's not so important anymore.

The younger version of Markie Post was satisfied by the Olivia Newton John look-a-like in Australia, so she's also not on my radar.

Ms Wilde, however, is the beautiful eyes/soft skin "Ivory Snow" fantasy, which still needs some servicing.