patrick.net

zzyzzx says

That's where the liberals will disagree with you.

But, but, but just because he was offered (like everyone under the age of 18 in this country) a free education, it don't mean squat (no, we won't factor in that he didn't do his homework, or skipped school over 50% of the time).

Just because with no skills, he still scored a job at WalMart making $10 an hour and then got fired because half the time he didn't show up for work, the other half the time when he was at work, he was on his cell phone. Doesn't mean squat.

Just because he's in Jail for trying to rob the local convenience store. Doesn't mean squat.

Just cause he's got three babies with three different women and can't pay child support on or for any of them. Doesn't mean squat.

Now what part of he deserves more don't you understand???

gsr says

CaptainShuddup says

People aren't spending more on food, they are being forced to spend more for the food they get. Stop it.

Over here, restaurants are crowded, roads are jam-packed. Most people seem to be living high on the hog. They are not just barely getting by. But yes, prices are up.

Well over here everybody has the latest web-phone the minute it is released, and the required contract which screws them most. Out of 10 people, 8 drive a significantly more expensive car then me while 8 out of 10 make significantly less), they have multi-million mortgages, TVs so big they don't fit through any door or window anymore, and they don't now how to cook or clean their places themselves. Most of them are saddled with debt and don't even have kids yet, all that on the latest social media hype tech job which is as safe and sound as the Fed's trillion dollar balance sheet. Meanwhile Russia is paying down its debt, Germany is fighting the EU to do so as well, and China and India keep importing gold. Good times! ;)

YesYNot says

People eat out more, eat more pre-packaged food, live in larger houses with more stuff, and consume more health care than at any previous time.

Who are these 'people' of which you speak? I don't/won't buy pre-packed food. Unless you are talking about the fact that they butchered the pig down to sizes that I can buy and carry home. Nope, no Stoffers or Banquet frozen dinners for this guy (I do buy large packs of oatmeal, sugar, meat and reduce it to things in the freezer, to sizes that I will consume in one or two meals). Health care? I don't LIKE the doctor, I go in for a checkup once a year because it keeps my insurance premiums low. But if I show up at the doctor's, I'm in serious world of hurt. Generally see him once a year, and I wouldn't do that if I didn't have to. Big house? Somewhat guilty, but about to change seeing as how I'm taking in a friend and his wife who have fallen on hard times. Four people, 2 1/2 bathrooms.

YesYNot says

My point is that people tend to spend way beyond their means these days

Again, who are these 'people' that you talk of?? I have one credit card that I'm carrying a balance on and trying to pay off and one car loan that has zero interest and I'm paying off faster than the minimum payment (by about double). My house payment on a 2400 square foot house (including insurance and taxes) is $1200 a month. About what a 1200 square foot apartment would rent for down here. Who are these 'people' that you keep speaking of??

Vicente says

mell says

Yeah but it's up to the people to refuse the debtoholic circle-jerk. You look at Germany, they are now being attacked for taking care of their deficit instead of going on a Krugmanite crony spending spree - just because their economy has contracted after expanding for quite a while.. The problem is that if people would return to sound capital formation and not overspend we will be in for an immediate sharp correction and price drops which would be better for the economy in the long-term, but would have the pundits screaming for more stimulus instantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxk9PW83VCY

Hello in there McFly!

It isn't in the fucking interest of the FIRE industry for you to do that. Their media and paid stooges will lambast you for unpatriotic terrorist if you say otherwise.

Agreed, but you're still free to make your choice. Once they imprison you for not shopping, we can concede defeat. Kill your TV. I'd like to see a silent revolution by refusing to consume and rejecting debt-deals requiring forward promise of labor, incl. anything that gives a middle-men an immediate direct cut of a pie that has not been paid off yet. For example, people could switch to using real estate lawyers paid on an hourly salary when selling/buying houses, and only buy cars w cash and only participate in month-to-month contracts. For the few bugger or unexpected things where loans are still needed. limit them to 5-10 years. The possibilities are endless.

mmmarvel says

Health care? I don't LIKE the doctor, I go in for a checkup once a year because it keeps my insurance premiums low. But if I show up at the doctor's, I'm in serious world of hurt.

Brother's best friend, kept making excuses not to go the doctor. He's a rugged type. Oh if only he had done something about it sooner before he was in a "world of hurt". Now he's dying of cancer.

mell says

Kill your TV. I'd like to see a silent revolution by refusing to consume and rejecting debt-deals requiring forward promise of labor, incl. anything that gives a middle-men an immediate direct cut of a pie that has not been paid off yet.

IOW quit eating the seed corn.

A lot of people's spending habits are created by the money supply created by the state. Inflation has a message of spend. China has seen to it through devaluation of the Yuan (lowering the purchasing power of the Yuan) that the message is save. Because the US has allowed mercantilism along with inflation since the 70s the message is spend.

Vicente says

Brother's best friend, kept making excuses not to go the doctor. He's a rugged type. Oh if only he had done something about it sooner before he was in a "world of hurt". Now he's dying of cancer.

But see, I'm okay with dying. I'd rather pass than have bits and pieces of me chopped away with a limited and not-too-happy of a life. I'm also not impressed with the way the world (and this country) are going, so yeah, I'm okay with dying.

mmmarvel says

But see, I'm okay with dying. I'd rather pass than have bits and pieces of me chopped away with a limited and not-too-happy of a life. I'm also not impressed with the way the world (and this country) are going, so yeah, I'm okay with dying.

I can't say I disagree with that. But for me, I'm not impressed with the way this country is going. There's quite a few countries I would already be living in, if I wasn't married and have kids. I would have ditched this third world Ebola infested shit hole about 6 years ago.

CaptainShuddup says

There's quite a few countries I would already be living in, if I wasn't married and have kids.

They have to agree to take you. Good luck with that.

indigenous says

Inflation has a message of spend.

And we haven't had much of it.

indigenous says

Because the US has allowed mercantilism along with inflation since the 70s the message is spend.

Right, we aren't unilaterally cutting tariffs and the whole paradigm of the past 30-40 years is to create new trade barriers.

mmmarvel says

Again, who are these 'people' that you talk of?? I have one credit card that I'm carrying

Americans spend on average $2500 per year eating out.
https://gma.yahoo.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-spend-eating-out-at-restaurants--.html
Of this $1000 is for lunch.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/09/25/lunchtime-americans-spend-nearly-1k-annually-eating-out-for-lunch/

For a 4 person family, this is $10K. I'm sure that Parents with children spend less per person on average, and married with no kids spend more than their share. So, regardless of your personal habits, people spend quite a lot on average, and this is reflected by the shear number of restaurants around. The landscape was very different 10, 20, 30, or 60 years ago, and there were much fewer restaurants.

When you go to the grocery store, just look at what other people are buying. I do, and there are tons of pre-made items going into carts. Most of these have >50% mark-up.

So, the answer to your question, 'these people' whom you ask about are the majority of other people in this country.

bob2356 says

They have to agree to take you. Good luck with that.

Like we did?

CaptainShuddup says

I can't say I disagree with that. But for me, I'm not impressed with the way this country is going. There's quite a few countries I would already be living in, if I wasn't married and have kids.

Outside of living in Rin's world of hookers and what-not (although not in Canada) not sure I'd want to take a family to any other country. Heck, the wife has zero desire (as do I) to even visit other countries. Again, if I was living as Rin attests to do, then ... but I'm too old for that, too broke for that and too old for that.

indigenous says

Tariffs are not a good idea cuz they reciprocate.

The problem with unilaterally lowering tariffs is that they are not reciprocated.

"Dumb Americans tricked by wealthy outsourcers? Great! No negotiations, so we'll enjoy the minimal tariff on cars we export to them - while continuing to tariff American import at 40%."

YesYNot says

The landscape was very different 10, 20, 30, or 60 years ago, and there were much fewer restaurants.

People spent the same amount of money, inflation adjusted.

However, instead of Dominos or McDs, scarfing down cheap food for lunch, they spent most of it on dining out at local restaurants, running up a drink bill as well as they smoked and relaxed after dinner.

So instead of eating a good meal with adult beverages and paying a local-owned business, they eat multiple quick meals where the profits go to large multinationals.

CaptainShuddup says

hicken wings are the new Prime Rib, when it used to be meat that was added to making stock.

People aren't spendi

We didn't all eat prime rib ever. The parts of a cow haven't changed, and we've been eating the whole cow for a long time.

People have been eating all parts of pigs and birds as well. It just wan't anyone in your family.

Pig feet has been a traditional food in China: http://sunflower-recipes.blogspot.com/2012/01/trotter-and-ginger-in-sweetened-black.html

Chicken feet are as well. We used to feed them to slaves, and it became a component of soul food in the US, but now we are exporting a lot of these parts to China.

Eating the whole animal has always been done, it was just done by other people in the past. Don't worry, though, what separates a delicacy from the trash is often a matter of cultural preference anyway.

I'm not talking about eating bones, entrails and less desirable cuts of yesterday(chicken wings), what I would eat or wouldn't eat.

This is about even a few broken pieces of Beef bones, the wife buys for soup stock used to pay about 69 cents just a few years ago. Now that package goes for $4.00 or more. Not because of supply and demand, but because the grocers don't want people buying up cheap food stuff, and just leaving the over priced commodities to rot on the shelves, and the stoffers and green giant pre processed food in the cold case past the sale by date.

The grocery store would rather mark beef bones to be inline with the price of Chuck and Round, because it would be much cheaper for them to throw away rotting unsold beef bones rather than having toss out unsold Rump roasts, and tubes of ground beef.

The game is rigged folks, stop defending it.

Look at the graph here:
http://ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2013-february/americans-food-choices-at-home-and-away.aspx

People spend 50% of their grocery dollars on refined grains, beverages, frozen entrees, and sugar and candy. Considering all of the non-alcoholic beverages are sugar water, there's up to 22% coming from mostly sugar.

From the link:
In 2005-08, Americans consumed 32 percent of their daily calories away from home, up from 18 percent in 1977-78.

Thunderlips,
If you look at the link, restaurant spending has doubled, and fast food spending has quadrupled from 1977 to 2008.

There is one problem with the idea of raising wages across the board without fixing monopolies or breaking up trusts. If you can't control monopoly and price collusion, no wage increase will ever cure the problem.

YesYNot, I have posted several posts on Patnet where I said that I suspected that grocery stores were rigging the prices of fresh produce and meats in order to direct people to the processed foods with greater profits.

My Keyboard player is a Win Dixie manager, he said they throw away tons of fresh food every day. He's never seen that in the 20 years he's worked there.
Remember those huge family value packs that were also a great value about 1/3 of the price buying single portions? That was to get rid of all of the meat that was about to be past it's prime. Stores never do that anymore, they would rather let the meat and produce go bad, and toss it out. They have bigger margins and markups on all of that refined grains, beverages, frozen entrees and all of the crap on the shelf than they do from the food in the cold case.
And the 30% of the meat that does get sold, those consumers are already paying enough markup to cover all the meat and crap thrown out at the end of the day. They aren't even allowed to give it to charity.

So while it would seem Americans are eating more crap than ever.

You really have to ask your self. Is it all because they prefer the crap, or are they on an involuntary diet?

mmmarvel says

But see, I'm okay with dying. I'd rather pass than have bits and pieces of me chopped away with a limited and not-too-happy of a life. I'm also not impressed with the way the world (and this country) are going, so yeah, I'm okay with dying.

So that means once you get your diagnosis you'll just "off yourself" so you won't cost us any money? Well OK then.

Most people however, will go bankrupt, then hit any public assistance or hospital welfare they can, until their dying breath. Trying to keep alive someone with advanced cancer is very expensive.

It's very common to visualize a quick and painless death. Most however are not.

Also I would say over the last year as Wholefoods popularity has started to wane and they aren't selling as much $6.00 bunch of baby spinach. Those growers still have to sell their produce.

There's a local grocer that caters to the Latin community.
That store was notorious for unripe or rotten tomatoes, tubers bananas and iceberg lettuce, and some Onions. That was it. It had the most piss poor produce selection in the state. Now because Wholefoods isn't doing the brisk business that they were(although the economy is improving, they say), this store now carries Kale, baby spinach, lose beets, beets with the greens, pretty much every variety of greens you can think of. And not one single item over $3.00. The Spinach bunch I get for $1.69, and when I get it home and clean it. I end up with double what those tubs of cleaned spinach cost from Publix $4.99 and up. And at wholefoods the bunch uncleaned was more than that.

Actually the last month I've been eating a most vegetarian diet from this store, because it's the only items in the store that priced sensibly.

But still Publix and Win Dixie the produce prices are out of control like everything else in the store.

Vicente says

So that means once you get your diagnosis you'll just "off yourself" so you won't cost us any money? Well OK then.

No, I won't off myself, but I also won't be getting a bunch of tubes and operations. My morals won't allow me to 'off myself' but if God and nature are ready for me to go, I'm ready to go. No, I'll forgo the slicing, dicing, tubes and over-medicated. Keep me numb to a point that I can tolerate it and let it happen. If you can' do that, then I'll suffer to the end.

mmmarvel says

If you can' do that, then I'll suffer to the end.

Cut out that free will talk! You'll be a statistic, a THING that is costing Vincent money for even existing, whether you like it or NOT!

CaptainShuddup says

You'll be a statistic, a THING that is costing Vincent money for even existing, whether you like it or NOT!

Funny you should mention that. I remember a time when I had no job, no health insurance and I had a couple nasty bouts with my asthma. However, since I couldn't afford my meds, I gutted through it. Later when I got health insurance and saw a doc about my condition he said, "Well, what you do if the attack was acute?" I said, "I'll lie in my bed and die like they've done for centuries."

Like I said, I have no problem with dying.

YesYNot says

People spend 50% of their grocery dollars on refined grains, beverages, frozen entrees, and sugar and candy. Considering all of the non-alcoholic beverages are sugar water, there's up to 22% coming from mostly sugar.

Because fresh vegetables are expensive relative to the highly subsidized Corn/Soy/Potato Complex of empty refined calories. It's also why the spending on Potatoes wasn't so bad relative to other "vegetables" - that's also highly subsidized.

As for dining out, I could not find that after a scanning the article. I think the culprit is a difference in household composition and consumption. Joe the Factory Worker may have eaten lunch at the diner or burger stand once in a while, but the big money was getting a babysitter and mom out of the house on friday night to Charlie's Steakhouse. Today mom is working too, so she is also eating out also - but they are going to Charlie's together less often. It's also a question as to whether it's inflation adjusted, and how it's reported. Corporate Chains are better record keepers and marketing researchers than Charlie.

I'll have to source my 70's assertion - I did read that somewhere. But here is one comparing the last 20 years, you'll see the spending is pretty much the same with some rises and falls during booms and busts:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2011-september/food-spending.aspx

thunderlips11 says

And we haven't had much of it.

Really with the stock market at record highs? Is that just because the economy is doing so well? Real Estate is also near where it was at in 2007, is that also because there are so many jobs that there is a huge demand on housing? What about high end retail or collector items?

There is definitely inflation.

thunderlips11 says

Right, we aren't unilaterally cutting tariffs and the whole paradigm of the past 30-40 years is to create new trade barriers.

What are you talking about, the US has low tariffs.

thunderlips11 says

The problem with unilaterally lowering tariffs is that they are not reciprocated.

They sure are the other direction, Smoot Hawley and such.

thunderlips11 says

"Dumb Americans tricked by wealthy outsourcers? Great! No negotiations, so we'll enjoy the minimal tariff on cars we export to them - while continuing to tariff American import at 40%."

Explain

Have yous noticed that candy has doubled in the last few years?

It is the price of chocolate has skyrocketed because of poor harvests.

Call it Crazy says

No........ Not peanut M&M's...... Now I'm getting nervous!!!!!!!

Gawd what are we going to do this Ebola thing is getting serious.

Another one that has affected things is the price of almonds.

indigenous says

Really with the stock market at record highs? Is that just because the economy is doing so well? Real Estate is also near where it was at in 2007, is that also because there are so many jobs that there is a huge demand on housing? What about high end retail or collector items?

There is definitely inflation.

Inflation is defined as a general rise in prices. Just because investors desperate for returns are ginning up the stock market and residential real estate doesn't equal inflation. Everything (or almost everything) has to rise in price.

indigenous says

What are you talking about, the US has low tariffs.

And they have generally not been reciprocated voluntarily, which was my point. And even when there is a promise to reciprocate, like in the South Korean Free Trade treaty, our tariffs go down immediately; theirs is mostly subject to a nebulous promise at some point in the indeterminate future, to please if they can, maybe drop them a bit. Only a handful of areas were enforced, like of course the fattening diabetic assault of Corn and Soy exports.

They really should be called investor treaties because the main point of the treaty was to allow US companies to buy Korean assets, in return for low tariffs and faster customs processing.

thunderlips11 says

As for dining out, I could not find that after a scanning the article. I think the culprit is a difference in household composition and consumption. Joe the Factory Worker may have eaten lunch at the diner or burger stand once in a while, but the big money was getting a babysitter and mom out of the house on friday night to Charlie's Steakhouse. Today mom is working too, so she is also eating out also - but they are going to Charlie's together less often. It's also a question as to whether it's inflation adjusted, and how it's reported. Corporate Chains are better record keepers and marketing researchers than Charlie.

I agree with you that the patterns have changed. People go out to lunch a lot b/c both parents are working. The statistics I cited came from a set of pie charts in the report.

To be more specific, the charts showed that the percentage of calories coming from sit-down restaurants has doubled. The percentage of calories coming from fast food joints has quadrupled.

YesYNot says

People go out to lunch a lot b/c both parents are working

Both parents working is not an excuse not to cook at home. People just don't make it a priority or they don't know how to do it and can't be bothered to learn. If they did, it would be better for their pocketbook as well as their health.

^ I agree that people should cook anyways. I was just noting a work / lifestyle pattern that has changed over the last 40 years.

CaptainShuddup says

Tell me about it, and I could have put that $25.00 london broil in my cart yesterday. It was crazy expensive, but it wouldn't have put me in the poor house. But I refused to do it. Because the last time I bought a piece of London broil like that it was one of the cheapest cuts of meat in the meat case.

So me, just like everyone else in the store was just haplessly meandering around the store with an empty cart, hoping to find just one single item that didn't inflate in course of just one week.

Last week I bought 2 dozen brown eggs for a about $4.00. Yesterday for no reason explained each dozen was $3.50.

Beef isn't just what's for dinner, it's what's wrong with this country.

dublin hillz says

Both parents working is not an excuse not to cook at home. People just don't make it a priority or they don't know how to do it and can't be bothered to learn. If they did, it would be better for their pocketbook as well as their health.

I bought a pound of ground pork and a lb of jumbo shrimp earlier.
The ground pork cost $3.98 and I spent $11.24 on the shrimp it was $8.99 a lb but the served me a little over, so I told him to leave it.
Then I picked up some wonton wrappers and egg roll wrappers, a napa cabbage, came home and spent about 4 hours making soup wontons and pot stickers.

I have about 50 wontons and about 80 pot stickers.

The extra shrimp went into the wonton soup stock.

I've got post stickers and wontons to last through the Winter.
I pay about $9.00 a bag of about 24 pot stickers, at the Asian market.

dublin hillz says

Both parents working is not an excuse not to cook at home. People just don't make it a priority or they don't know how to do it and can't be bothered to learn. If they did, it would be better for their pocketbook as well as their health.

BTW the same store I mentioned a few days ago with the 3.00 brown eggs, they are back to 1.89 a dozen. What gives? I mean really, is there really that much volatility in the egg industry?

thunderlips11 says

Inflation is defined as a general rise in prices. Just because investors desperate for returns are ginning up the stock market and residential real estate doesn't equal inflation. Everything (or almost everything) has to rise in price.

Where the fuck did you get that definition? Come on you are a lot smarter than that.

thunderlips11 says

And they have generally not been reciprocated voluntarily

In any case tariffs are a bad idea and hurt both countries. The reason is that it has been determined that that country is the most efficient producer of that product, consequently the best price all around is arrived at through the market place. E.G. Chocolate is best supplied by the Ivory Coast because it is the most efficient producer of chocolate, as Calif is with almonds, or other countries are with sugar.

But because the cronies have lobbied for tariffs that protect domestic sugar it is cheaper to use corn syrup.

zzyzzx says

dublin hillz says

Both parents working is not an excuse not to cook at home. People just don't make it a priority or they don't know how to do it and can't be bothered to learn. If they did, it would be better for their pocketbook as well as their health.

That is funny