patrick.net

Strategist says

@bigsby why are you so supportive of Islam. It puzzles me. I have seen some of the arguments you have made on conspiracy theories. You seem to be an intelligent liberal. But why do you guys defend Islam so much? Do you think the Sharia laws meet your liberal morals? Do you? It makes no sense at all.

It's not an issue of defending Islam. It's an issue with the fact that so many people on here and elsewhere seem to have turned a completely blind eye to why things have deteriorated so badly and so quickly and simply want to blame Islam for that. Muslims seem to be filling the role of the new blacks for many. How much experience do people on here have of Muslims, their way of life, the beliefs that they adhere to in day-to-day life? Too many people seem all too willing to tar all with the same brush when the extremists causing all this havoc wouldn't even fill an average size Premiership football stadium.

And yes, I hear that all the time about Sharia law. What do you actually think the implementation of Sharia law amounts to in the majority of Muslim countries? The actual (rather than theoretical) implementation isn't nearly as problematic as you seem to think in most countries as they employ a mixed system. Obviously full Sharia law is extremely problematic to me, but then it isn't my culture or religious background and there seem to be a great deal of people in those countries unhappy about its reach. Muslim people are an incredibly diverse lot. The dumbing down of what it is that those people actually believe into one great monolithic entity is just foolish.

I heard when the moon is full, Abdullah grows horns, breathes fire, rides around on a wooden stick, smokes reefer, and plays jazz music.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

When we invaded Iraq, we installed a soft puppet who could bring democracy to the region. We fail to understand that the Mid East Muslims are not ready for democracy. They will only take advantage of any democracy to install Islam and it's disgusting sharia laws. This created a vacuum, and Islam being the evil it is, quickly dominated.

Simplistic in the extreme. Maliki divided that country on sectarian grounds, totally isolating the Sunnis in favour of the Shias. Why do you think the tribes in the Sunni regions thought rule under ISIS was more favourable to that of Maliki?

And you can't just plonk democracy on nations that have never experienced it, and most certainly in nations that have been under the boot of the kind of rulers Iraq, Syria, Libya and Egypt were subjected to, and suddenly expect everything to run smoothly.

So why blame America?

Bigsby says

Strategist says

You seem to conveniently forget the genocide that is well documented in the thousand years leading up to that partition massacre. You also forget the terrorism that took place in India by Muslims since then.

You mean when one nation invades another and commits atrocities? And obviously such atrocities never happened when Christian countries invaded other nations. And exactly what constitutes genocide to you?

You seem to have forgotten the acts of terrorism that have taken place in India by Hindu nationalists and the like.

LOL. That does not make Islam any less barbaric.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

I notice you did not address the Russian and Phillipine terrorism that I mentioned. Why?

So I have to address every single point, do I? Many regions of the old USSR have been destabilized by what has gone on post break up. The trouble in those regions isn't solely down to the fact that, for example, the Chechens did it 'because they are Muslim,' is it? As for the Phillipines, I don't know the historical details of that insurgency so perhaps you'd care to inform us of its background.

Still defending Islam. Absolutely disgusting. OK, it's a free country, we won't take off your head for disagreeing.

Bigsby says

It's not an issue of defending Islam. It's an issue with the fact that so many people on here and elsewhere seem to have turned a completely blind eye to why things have deteriorated so badly and so quickly and simply want to blame Islam for that. Muslims seem to be filling the role of the new blacks for many. How much experience do people on here have of Muslims, their way of life, the beliefs that they adhere to in day-to-day life? Too many people seem all too willing to tar all with the same brush when the extremists causing all this havoc wouldn't even fill an average size Premiership football stadium.

Here are some facts....
99.99% of suicide bombers are Muslim.
There isn't a nation, that has Muslims, does not experience their terrorism.
The tens of thousands that rushed to join ISIS were ALL MUSLIMS.
My question to you Bigsby, is, do you believe Islam is a peaceful religion? I await an honest answer.

Strategist says

So why blame America?

Oh FFS, who do you think completely destabilized Iraq? Who disbanded the Iraqi army? Who put in power a leader who utterly sidelined the Sunni population in favour of the Shias? etc. etc.
Strategist says

LOL. That does not make Islam any less barbaric.

You may as well say every religion is barbaric. It's people who are barbaric.

Strategist says

Still defending Islam. Absolutely disgusting. OK, it's a free country, we won't take off your head for disagreeing.

WTF are you talking about? Its not an issue of defending Islam. It's an issue of looking at how situations have arisen from all aspects rather than simply jumping up and down and shouting 'It's Islam's fault. It's Islam's fault.'

Bigsby says

WTF are you talking about? Its not an issue of defending Islam. It's an issue of looking at how situations have arisen from all aspects rather than simply jumping up and down and shouting 'It's Islam's fault. It's Islam's fault.'

I ask you again....
My question to you Bigsby, is, do you believe Islam is a peaceful religion? I await an honest answer.

Strategist says

Here are some facts....

99.99% of suicide bombers are Muslim.

There isn't a nation, that has Muslims, does not experience their terrorism.

The tens of thousands that rushed to join ISIS were ALL MUSLIMS.

My question to you Bigsby, is, do you believe Islam is a peaceful religion? I await an honest answer.

Suicide bombings have been used during other conflicts as well. It strikes me as an act of desperation by a very small number of extremely fucked up/brainwashed/coerced people. It's Muslims who are fighting, so they are Muslim suicide bombers...
Most Muslim countries have had very few acts of terrorism in their borders. The countries that have the biggest terrorist problems also have the biggest problems in general.
Yes, Muslims joined a Muslim force. Remarkable. Why do you think these young people have been radicalized? What have they been exposed to over the last 15 years?
I don't believe Islam is particularly different to any religion. They can all be manipulated any way you like. It's people who are not peaceful. And if you create the circumstances for unrest, then you will get unrest, and it doesn't take very many radicalized/psychotic/murderous... people with guns to drag everyone down with them. You can take a look at plenty of non-muslim countries over the centuries to see how quickly things can fall apart.

Call it Crazy says

Hmmm... How many blacks have you seen lately beheading people??

How many black have been suicide bombers lately?

For that matter, how many Germans behead people this month? Any Irish people do some beheadings?

How many Italians over-ran and took over cities in Iraq the past year?

Just wondering...

A typically idiotic post from you. What a surprise.

Strategist says

I ask you again....

My question to you Bigsby, is, do you believe Islam is a peaceful religion? I await an honest answer.

You seem to want to argue that because a few tens of thousands of Muslims are creating chaos that Islam is somehow a religion of war? Is that what you are saying? Which countries have created the most chaos on the planet during human history? What religion was practiced in those countries? Is Christianity a peaceful religion then?
The vast majority of Muslims live in peace. That is a simple and obvious fact, so on that basis, Islam is a religion of peace to the vast majority who practice it.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

I ask you again....


My question to you Bigsby, is, do you believe Islam is a peaceful religion? I await an honest answer.

You seem to want to argue that because a few tens of thousands of Muslims are creating chaos that Islam is somehow a religion of war? Is that what you are saying? Which countries have created the most chaos on the planet during human history? What religion was practiced in those countries? Is Christianity a peaceful religion then?

The vast majority of Muslims live in peace. That is a simple and obvious fact, so on that basis, Islam is a religion of peace to the vast majority who practice it.

OK :) :) :)

Call it Crazy says

So, I take it that your answer would be none? Or were the questions too hard for you to answer?

No, they were just too stupid to bother answering.

Bigsby says

How much experience do people on here have of Muslims, their way of life, the beliefs that they adhere to in day-to-day life?

My next door neighbor is Iranian and fled with his family in 1979 when the crazy Mullahs took over.

Several of my clients are Iraqis and Kurds who fled Saddam in the 1990's. One of them was finally able to move back home to be with his family in 2008 when things were peaceful.

All were supportive of overthrowing Saddam.

socal2 says

Several of my clients are Iraqis and Kurds who fled Saddam in the 1990's. One of them was finally able to move back home to be with his family in 2008 when things were peaceful.

All were supportive of overthrowing Saddam.

Of course they were. They fled Saddam. And Iraq was hardly peaceful in 2008.

And I somehow doubt those people would serve to reinforce Strategists perception of Islam as a religion of terror. A good number of Kurds are actually very socialist in their outlook...

Like I said, a bit of contact with some clients is hardly much experience of Muslims, and I'd guess that is more than many on here.

Bigsby says

Like I said, a bit of contact with some clients is hardly much experience of Muslims, and I'd guess that is more than many on here.

To be fair, any contact Americans have with Muslims here in America is not all that credible of an experience as we tend to get the best and brightest and more secular variety.

Does Saudi Arabia represent "true Islam".

How about Egypt and Pakistan?
"Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Does the intolerant and hateful stuff preached in numerous UK mosques represent "true Islam"?
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/aug/22/channel4.islam

socal2 says

Does Saudi Arabia represent "true Islam".

How about Egypt and Pakistan?

You answer it yourself. Everywhere is different. What's true Christianity? A good number of your Bible belt hold views abhorrent to Europeans for example.
socal2 says

"Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam"

That doesn't make it a religion of terror. It simply shows that those are very conservative and religious societies, something that is reinforced by the poor educational standards and levels of poverty there.

socal2 says

Does the intolerant and hateful stuff preached in numerous UK mosques represent "true Islam"?

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/aug/22/channel4.islam

Your religious right also spouts hateful and intolerant stuff and has hardly had the kind of forces at play pushing the more outspoken radicals to the forefront. You also have youth in Western countries caught between the conservatism of their families and the liberalism they see around them in day-to-day life. Like many young, they can be led by people manipulating them and playing on their anger at the perceived injustices done to Muslims. The internet has made that process far easier.

Bigsby says

It's a stupid question. You answer it yourself. Everywhere is different. What's true Christianity? A good number of your Bible belt hold views abhorrent to Europeans for example.

FFS - you can compare Christianity around the planet from the Catholics, Evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox from Europe, South America to Asia and you will find NOTHING as extreme as the beliefs in terms of large percentages about killing apostates and other extreme beliefs commonly found in the Muslim/Arab world. Not even remotely the same league.

Bigsby says

That doesn't make it a religion of terror. It simply shows that those are very conservative and religious societies, something that is reinforced by the poor educational standards and levels of poverty there.

The majority of world's Muslims live in poor and backwards societies. Some could even argue that it is specifically Islam that is holding them back.

socal2 says

FFS - you can compare Christianity around the planet from the Catholics, Evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox from Europe, South America to Asia and you will find NOTHING as extreme as the beliefs in terms of large percentages about killing apostates and other extreme beliefs commonly found in the Muslim/Arab world. Not even remotely the same league.

You don't have to go that far back to have exactly those sort of views expressed (and enforced) in Christianity. Remind me again how many centuries older Christianity is compared to Islam. There is that difference in age and that the West went through the enlightenment. Many parts of the Muslim world are little changed culturally to how they were centuries ago. That outlook needs to change and hopefully it will, but what is happening now is hardly going to encourage that. It is also more difficult in Islam because the Quran is viewed as the literal word of God. Christians ceased viewing the Bible like that centuries ago.

socal2 says

The majority of world's Muslims live in poor and backwards societies. Some could even argue that it is specifically Islam that is holding them back.

Some or you?

Bigsby says

Many parts of the Muslim world are little changed culturally to how they were centuries ago. That outlook needs to change and hopefully it will, but what is happening now is hardly going to encourage that. It is also more difficult in Islam because the Quran is viewed as the literal word of God.

The only thing that remotely civilized the Muslim/Arab world was European colonialism. And that certainly wasn't a complete success as we call all attest.

Saudi Arabia still had slavery in the 1960's until the US pressured them to ban it.

There is no way the Muslim/Arab world is going to modernize by itself in our lifetime. Or several lifetimes. If anything it's regressing right now. Larger percentages are more religious now with more women in Afghanistan, Iran and Egypt wearing full burqas now than they did in the 1970's.

socal2 says

The only thing that remotely civilized the Muslim/Arab world was European colonialism. And that certainly wasn't a complete success as we call all attest.

We didn't civilize them, we oppressed them and/or used them as part of the power struggles in the region.

socal2 says

There is no way the Muslim/Arab world is going to modernize by itself in our lifetime. Or several lifetimes. If anything it's regressing right now. Larger percentages are more religious now with more women in Afghanistan, Iran and Egypt wearing full burqas now than they did in the 1970's.

And why do you think that's the case? The meddling of the West this century and last has stoked exactly that.

Bigsby says

We didn't civilize them, we oppressed them and/or used them as part of the power struggles in the region.

So - did we "oppress" the Saudis when we pressured them to stop legalized slavery just a few decades ago? Did we oppress the Saudis by giving them the technology to become gazillionaires?

Did the British oppress the Indians when they told them they could no longer burn their widows alive next to their dead husbands?

Bigsby says

And why do you think that's the case? The meddling of the West this century and last has stoked exactly that.

Keep making excuses for them.

I guess we are to believe majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of western meddling?

Has NOTHING to do with Islam - right?

socal2 says

Keep making excuses for them.

I guess we are to believe majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of western meddling?

Has NOTHING to do with Islam - right?

Except I said that Western meddling had contributed to the rise in conservatism, which isn't the same as '...majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of Western meddling. Has NOTHING...,' is it?

socal2 says

So - did we "oppress" the Saudis when we pressured them to stop legalized slavery just a few decades ago? Did we oppress the Saudis by giving them the technology to become gazillionaires?

Did the British oppress the Indians when they told them they could no longer burn their widows alive next to their dead husbands?

That is a ridiculous comment. I guess from that your forefathers didn't oppress the native Americans because your country later allowed them to build casinos.

Bigsby says

socal2 says

Keep making excuses for them.

I guess we are to believe majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of western meddling?

Has NOTHING to do with Islam - right?

Except I said that Western meddling had contributed to the rise in conservatism, which isn't the same as '...majority of Egyptians and Pakistanis think it's cool to murder apostates because of Western meddling. Has NOTHING...,' is it?

Bigsby says

socal2 says

So - did we "oppress" the Saudis when we pressured them to stop legalized slavery just a few decades ago? Did we oppress the Saudis by giving them the technology to become gazillionaires?

Did the British oppress the Indians when they told them they could no longer burn their widows alive next to their dead husbands?

That is a ridiculous comment. I guess from that your forefathers didn't oppress the native Americans because your country later allowed them to build casinos.

Your stone fast arguments sympathizing with Sharia laws are disgraceful at best. Sharia laws are much too barbaric for humanity.

Strategist says

Your stone fast arguments sympathizing with Sharia laws are disgraceful at best. Sharia laws are much too barbaric for humanity.

You don't half post some cobblers. Where did I sympathize with Sharia law?

Bigsby says

Yes, Muslims joined a Muslim force. Remarkable. Why do you think these young people have been radicalized? What have they been exposed to over the last 15 years?

I don't believe Islam is particularly different to any religion. They can all be manipulated any way you like.

A religion is only as good as it's founders.
Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth. Murder, rape, slavery, and violence was his legacy. No wonder Islam carries on his legacy. As humans, we cannot and will not allow this 7th century barbarism to be practiced on our planet. As I said before, Islam is the breeding ground of terrorists and barbarism, and we will stop it one way or the other.
People like you who steadfastly stand up for this sick religion in the West are only contributing to the problem, should be ashamed of themselves.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Your stone fast arguments sympathizing with Sharia laws are disgraceful at best. Sharia laws are much too barbaric for humanity.

You don't half post some cobblers. Where did I sympathize with Sharia law?

Oh stop it. You are an excellent debater, I grant you that. If your goal is to simply win an argument, I would not be able to compete with you. But you will never be able to prove that Islam is a brutal and barbaric religion.

Strategist says

But you will never be able to prove that Islam is a brutal and barbaric religion.

I thought that was what you were trying to prove.

Strategist says

Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth.

You are embarrassing yourself with comments like that.

Strategist says

People like you who steadfastly stand up for this sick religion in the West are only contributing to the problem, should be ashamed of themselves.

I'm not standing up for it. I'm an atheist. I have no fondness for any religion. I'm pointing out that we are the ones that have contributed substantially to the rising conservatism, and that your sweeping generalizations about Muslims as a whole are just that and entirely inaccurate for most of the adherents of that religion.

How many Muslims do you know, let alone are actually friends with?

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth.

You are embarrassing yourself with comments like that.

Both of you are right to some extent.

"Islam-Ex Muslim., Allah is a Gangster": http://youtu.be/Vl641IFO10g

gsr says

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Mohammad who founded Islam was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth.

You are embarrassing yourself with comments like that.

Both of you are right to some extent.

"Islam-Ex Muslim., Allah is a Gangster": http://youtu.be/Vl641IFO10g

Nice video. I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)

Strategist says

I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)

The majority of people who happen to be Muslims are nice people, like anyone else. The video clearly stated that. The ideology of Islam OTOH does have problems. It is hard to ignore.

gsr says

Strategist says

I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)

The majority of people who happen to be Muslims are nice people, like anyone else. The video clearly stated that. The ideology of Islam OTOH does have problems. It is hard to ignore.

That is why I call Islam the breeding ground for terrorists. The majority of Muslims will never be terrorists, but only Islam can turn out terrorists so abundantly and so quickly. :(

Nuance is not a conservative strongpoint. Anything more complex than "With us or against us." does not compute.

sbh says

no one on Patnet is actually an apologist for Islam, at best they are critical of the west's historical arrogance wrt to other peoples' territories, but are nowhere near willing to blame the creation of Islamic terrorism solely on the west. You do understand what "solely" means, don't you?

Are you talking about actions like this one?
From http://townhall.com/columnists/katiekieffer/2013/04/29/benghazigate-obamas-secret-gunrunning-program-n1580051/page/full

"September 5, 2012: A Libyan ship called Al Entisar (“The Victory”) docks in the Turkish port of Iskenderun, carrying 400 tons of cargo including many weapons such as rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) and shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles (MANPADS) destined for Syrian rebels 35 miles away from Iskenderun. The ship’s captain told the Times of London that the Muslim Brotherhood and the free Syrian Army broke into a fight over the arms.

September 10, 2012: Stevens arrives in Benghazi, Libya, the location of the U.S. consulate. About a mile away from the consulate, is the CIA annex. Stevens planned to stay at the consulate for five days. His visit was supposed to be secret, but Libya-based extremists somehow learned of his arrival.

September 11, 2012: Stevens has an unusual meeting with Turkish diplomat Consul General Ali Sait Akin. Fox News reported that the meeting was “…to negotiate a weapons transfer, an effort to get SA-7 missiles out of the hands of Libya-based extremists.”

Sen. Lindsey Graham confirmed on Fox News Channel’s “Special Report with Bret Baier” that Stevens was in Libya to specifically control a situation: “…where the action was regarding the rising Islamic extremists who were trying to get their hands on weapons that were flowing freely in Libya…”

9:40 p.m. (Libya time): Libyan rebels launched and organized an armed attack against the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi."

sbh says

Strategist says

I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam.

Not on Patnet you haven't, there haven't been any, have there? And if you were honest and rational about it you'd admit that no one on Patnet is actually an apologist for Islam, at best they are critical of the west's historical arrogance wrt to other peoples' territories, but are nowhere near willing to blame the creation of Islamic terrorism solely on the west. You do understand what "solely" means, don't you? You do this because on the subject you're just mad and pretty lazy and it's easier to do that than to address what is really being said by people you don't agree with. You should at least contest what they actually do say, instead of forcing up strawmen that belong to no one.

A third are probably apologists for Islam at various levels. Almost all of them tend to be liberals who mindlessly and continuously criticize the US and the West for anything that goes wrong in the world. And it's always the same fucked up excuse. We stole their land, we attacked them for their oil. We created them because we trained them. It's our fault - it's all our fault- it's all our fault.
When I say "Khatib became a suicide bomber killing kids" you say, "John stole land from the Indians"
Who the hell is John, and what has he got to do with Khatib being a suicide bomber?
So SBH, how the hell do I address you guys, when you guys come up with arguments that belong in a different century?

thunderlips11 says

Nuance is not a conservative strongpoint. Anything more complex than "With us or against us." does not compute.

LOL. Something as simple as "With us or against us." does not compute with some of you guys. No wonder someone else has to do all the thinking for the extreme left. And I thought liberals were smart.

Strategist says

Nice video. I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)

You can criticize any religion, they lay themselves open for that, but to say their prophet 'was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth' just makes you look like a fool with an agenda.

Strategist says

A third are probably apologists for Islam at various levels. Almost all of them tend to be liberals who mindlessly and continuously criticize the US and the West for anything that goes wrong in the world. And it's always the same fucked up excuse. We stole their land, we attacked them for their oil. We created them because we trained them. It's our fault - it's all our fault- it's all our fault.

And you mindlessly ignore all that as CONTRIBUTIVE factors to what is currently happening. You should read SBH's comment again as apparently it flew clean over your head.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Nice video. I have noticed Islam apologists tend to go silent when Muslims or ex Muslims criticize Islam. The usual excuses of being racist, not having read the Koran, not understanding Muslims or it's all our fault simply don't apply. :)

You can criticize any religion, they lay themselves open for that, but to say their prophet 'was the most brutal barbarian ever to walk the earth' just makes you look like a fool with an agenda.

Why?

http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/65-khan/380-christian-burned-alive-wife-raped-for-refusing-to-convert-to-islam-emulating-islam-barbarous-prophet.html