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Logan Mohtashami says

So Greece just got more debt, so their creditors could be paid back interest by their own debt they just gave out?

‪#‎Ponziscams‬ are awesome

What's the alternative?
It's just like a cash out refinance.

Strategist says

It's just like a cash out refinance.

Cash out refinance means you qualify with your income and you have at least 20% equity in your home.

Greeks were about to give IOU out... Hmmmmm....

No it's not the same thing!

Logan Mohtashami says

Strategist says

It's just like a cash out refinance.

Cash out refinance means you qualify with your income and you have at least 20% equity in your home.

Greeks were about to give IOU out... Hmmmmm....

No it's not the same thing!

What is the alternative?

Strategist says

What is the alternative?

Exactly!!!!

It's a Ponzi Scam and the best one ever created because can't you really run out of Yen, Euro, Dollar, Yuan....

... while acting like the supply is limited.

Again, EU debt is somewhere in the double digit trillions of Euros. Greece is only a few hundred billion in debt, a fraction of that.

Austerity Poster Boy Ireland's per capita debt is almost half again of Greece, about 42k Euros per person; Greece is 28k Euros per person.

#BankLivesMatter

Logan Mohtashami says

So Greece just got more debt, so their creditors could be paid back interest by their own debt they just gave out?

No, creditors also give extra money to keep the greek gov afloat.

This has nothing to do with debt: everyone understands that this debt will not be fully paid back.
The only question is how to do that within euro rules, that is without Germany outright paying the bills of problem countries.

Logan Mohtashami says

‪#‎Ponziscams‬ are awesome

Where is the ponzi? Ponzi assumes continually growing new input. I don't see that here.

In fact they already discussing debt relief.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-19/merkel-sees-greek-debt-relief-option-as-banks-set-to-open

Heraclitusstudent says

Where is the ponzi? Ponzi assumes continually growing new input. I don't see that here.

So why can't they pay the interest back on the debt without getting more debt from the people they are paying the interest back to.

Logan Mohtashami says

So why can't they pay the interest back on the debt without getting more debt from the people they are paying the interest back to.

Because they are bankrupt? Why is that ponzi?

It means that they have to enhance the structures of their economy and will probably need debt relief. In the meantime this debt is pretty much an abstraction, that is there for political reasons.

Heraclitusstudent says

Because they are bankrupt? Why is that ponzi?

So how can they still pay the interest? they get more debt to just pay the interest and it's not them, it's every one!

It's a remarkable ponzi scam because you can't simply run out of a currency, Just look at Japan and the Yen!

You only get into major trouble if you have massive inflation due to imports

Heraclitusstudent says

It means that they have to enhance the structures of their economy and will probably need debt relief. In the meantime this debt is pretty much an abstraction, that is there for political reasons.

You own me 1,000 dollars and pay $100 interest a month

I cut your debt by 50% and you still own me $100 interest a month or lets say $50

You still need more debt to pay back the interest unless you can post a yearly surplus until the debt gets paid off which it never will in a growing bad demographic cycle

I mean this stuff is priceless ... but the normal when you just print stuff from a computer

Logan Mohtashami says

You still need more debt to pay back the interest unless you can post a yearly surplus until the debt gets paid off which it never will in a growing bad demographic cycle

You assume that they have fixed revenues and costs. It's a country not a household: they raise taxes, cut pensions, wages, cut imports, increase exports, cut the bureaucracy, etc... This is why their account deficit position has improved (except for the Tsipras disaster) and will improve again as they implement reforms. Once they start running a surplus, they can invest more, and they will move from negative feedback to positive feedback. When the debt is cut, they will come back much stronger.

Heraclitusstudent says

When the debt is cut, they will come back much stronger.

If they didn't import 80% of their oil and 52% of their food and if they had a real economy I would agree with you.

However, 20% total GDP tourism would be great in a 40% devalued currency model but they simply don't have that.

We shouldn't really make a great deal about them.

Greece, Argentina and Venezuela are just one off bad economic countries.

Logan Mohtashami says

If they didn't import 80% of their oil and 52% of their food and if they had a real economy I would agree with you.

However, 20% total GDP tourism would be great in a 40% devalued currency model but they simply don't have that.

Are you saying devaluation would be good, or not? I'm confused.

They may well do reforms, then default, exit the euro and devalue. Europe will not let them be totally destroyed, but will insist they do their homework.

Heraclitusstudent says

Are you saying devaluation would be good, or not? I'm confused.

If they didn't import so much stuff it would work, but they simply import too much.

It's a bad version of Argentina

Heraclitusstudent says

they raise taxes, cut pensions, wages, cut imports, increase exports, cut the bureaucracy, etc...

This is the wrong thinking. The more taxes they raise, the more they spend. How responsible do you think government bodies with spending other people's money when they know they can raise taxes if the need more?

People love to vote for raising taxes when they're not the ones paying it. They just don't realize that the rich are well connected and get around paying taxes with loopholes. The middle class and the poor will eventually ending up paying the most in taxes. Talking about voting against your best interest.

E-man says

This is the wrong thinking. The more taxes they raise, the more they spend. How responsible do you think government bodies with spending other people's money when they know they can raise taxes if the need more?

People love to vote for raising taxes when they're not the ones paying it. They just don't realize that the rich are well connected and get around paying taxes with loopholes. The middle class and the poor will eventually ending up paying the most in taxes. Talking about voting against your best interest.

I don't need a lesson in American right wing thinking.
The Greek government needs revenues to pay for pensions, civil servants, etc... They need to cut spending AND they need to raise taxes.
One of the many deficiencies of this country was its inability to raise taxes.
Increased taxes means forced savings (or at least less dis-savings) at the national level.

E-man says

Are you jealous since you can't legally print money?

Households obviously can't extend credit lines to a
limf (X) =sky
x-a

Here in the U.S. we can print so much more without the inflation bug getting to us. In fact our economic weapon is that since we have the biggest military and biggest economy we are the safety net of the world.

Japan is a great test case with their data, they simply can't run out of yen and there is no inflation, a lot of that due to demographics

Some of the weaker countries, those who import a lot and are reliant too much on a single commodity are casualties of this debt forever thesis.

Call it Crazy says

The EU loaned the Greeks the money that was then paid back to the EU. In other words the Greeks got effectively-zero benefit but the balance on their loans increased!

Yes, that is a "sign of stabilization", sort of like it is a sign of stabilization when you have lit the fuse on a bomb and the fuse goes inside the box containing said bomb.

For a short while your situation appears to have improved.......

The conditions of those loans are to live within your means. That way they can get back on their feet.