patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

Did millions of legal AND illegal immigrants not come into the country over the past few years? Yes.

Are you making that up ? OR do you have data from after 2010 ? OH wait, you said they did not come in. Yes, maybe. That is we don't know, or I don't. Maybe you can sift through the Homeland Security data to get some clean data on what's been happening since 2010.

How does one go about researching the number of "unauthorized Mexican immigrants" in the country? Skeptical of any data that requires someone to state that they're "unauthorized" to be somewhere. There's also the shaded grey area showing the low and high points of the "estimated 90% confidence interval." That's almost 1 million people out of a total 6 million on the high end. From high to low you're talking roughly 16% of fluctuation in the data. I don't have data to counter what you have presented. But let's put it this way, how many job applicants with felonies would in their good heart put that they're a felon on every job application? And how many "unauthorized immigrants" would freely share this information?

marcus says

What I'm saying is that I think it would be nice if you had the honesty to admit that Donald Trump is widely loved because he speaks the ( supposedly amazing non-PC) truth about how we need to build a giant wall on the border, to protect us from the nearly 20% of illegal Mexican immigrants who were in the U.S.that have gone back to Mexico in the past 8 years or so.

Also, I don't think I've heard or read anywhere that a wall wouldn't allow people to leave. Who cares if the net "unauthorized Mexican immigrants" has supposedly declined. People left that were here "unauthorized." And "unauthorized" people still came here. Net result may have been a decline. Could be an increase next year. Why are "unauthorized" people allowed to just enter a country? I don't get why this is even something to question or argue about. Build a wall or not. Vote for whoever. I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a country illegally.

Do they have to be Mexican? I mean, most of the Latino illegals we get in the past ten years are from other central american countries. SO yah, less Mexicans, but more Guatemalans, Hondurans, Costa Ricans, etc etc. It still adds up to a lot of illegal immigration! Which is great for big business and terrible for American citizens in nearly every way. Which is why there's so much anger among native sons fueling the Trump Train...

Well they might have to go to smaller stadiums if Sarah Palin keeps talking. I just can't figure out how having the Sarah Palin endorsement of Trump is a good thing. I must admit... like many others, Trump was growing on me. Then Sarah Palin endorsed him. Is she a plant of the establishment GOP to reduce his numbers? I'm sorry, she's an idiot. I cannot imagine how her endorsement is going to help Trump. She's gotta be a plant.

And now Karl Rove's super PAC is running ads in support of Bernie.

This is going to be one entertaining election year.

But back to your original question regarding the pre-rally show... I don't know what that is. It's not cheerleading; it's not dance... It's reminds me of the kinds of performances you see at beauty pageants. Cheesy, high in flash, low in any actual skill...

turtledove says

Well they might have to go to smaller stadiums if Sarah Palin keeps talking. I just can't figure out how having the Sarah Palin endorsement of Trump is a good thing. I must admit... like many others, Trump was growing on me. Then Sarah Palin endorsed him. Is she a plant of the establishment GOP to reduce his numbers? I'm sorry, she's an idiot. I cannot imagine how her endorsement is going to help Trump. She's gotta be a plant.

Nah, It's just Trump using her to piss off the Cruz base that calls him "Not a Real Conservative". Same reason the John Wayne family came out for him recently.
Once he gets the nomination, he's gonna go to the center, and abortion will be the first thing you'll hear about.

marcus says

Look, I'm not trying to argue whether the number of existing immigrants is so high that it adversely affects the wages of unskilled natural U.S. citizens.

What I'm saying is that I think it would be nice if you had the honesty to admit that Donald Trump is widely loved because he speaks the ( supposedly amazing non-PC) truth about how we need to build a giant wall on the border, to protect us from the nearly 20% of illegal Mexican immigrants who were in the U.S.that have gone back to Mexico in the past 8 years or so.

Marcus, I care about immigration, both "legal and illegal", and made that abundantly clear using those three very words in quotes. I don't care how many are from Mexico, or from Indonesia, or from Botswana. Nor - and read this line carefully - if they are legal or illegal. Yes, there are just TOO MANY immigrants of all kinds. They are not needed, in fact they are hurting.

Do you see fast food restaurants around the country begging for workers and offering $12/hr? Neither do I. There is no shortage of workers. No magical job is conjured out of thin air the moment an immigrant (legal or illegal, I repeat YET AGAIN) crosses the border.

I do not care, nor claimed in any post above to be care, that illegals (and according to you Mexican illegals) are or aren't chosing to go back in relatively small numbers. You're playing GOTCHA! when there is no "gotcha" to be had.

I think Immigration GENERALLY, legal or illegal, is too damn high. As I made clear in my original post that started this attempt at strawmanning. We need to drop the overall higher-than-the-highest previous era of the 1910s-20s, level of immigration.

Sarah Palin is good because if anyone can make the media unglier than they are and lose their shit, to the point that they are exposing the behind the curtain magic while doing so more than Trump.
That is Sarah Palin. This is election is anti-elitist Media as much as it is anti establishment.

People are sick and tired of being mocked by the media while they play advertisements from endorsers who has to raise prices on their goods every week. Just to finance the media doing so.

Hey T.V. tell us all how Stupid well all is again!

Bernie vs. Trump is a winner no matter who wins.

Hillary vs. Cruz/Jeb!/Rubio/Kasich is a loser no matter who wins.

WookieMan says

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a country illegally.

IT's not. The government does a lot to prevent it. Obama beefed up border controls. We had 21,000 border agents as of 2012, it's probably more now. The best info we have is that the number of illegal Mexican immigrants in the country has actually decreased by 20% from it's peak in 2007.

I still say that when you contrast that fact with the demagoguery from Trump around the supposed need for a giant wall on our southern border, it shows that in some ways, we we already are an idiocracy.

Hey Marcus.... Quick question on CA curriculum. My daughter was doing her 6th grade social studies homework tonight. One of her questions was "pick three of the Ten Commandments and describe what they mean to you and why they are important." She's in public school. This seems awfully close to teaching religion at a public school. I don't really care as I look at it as part of history... But I wouldn't want the next step to be an attempt to convert my kids to a particular religion. I'm not a fan of organized religion, if you recall. It seems odd to me that they are getting away with it. I'm surprised there aren't complaints. Is it allowed, now?

Btw.... We just found out today that she's been selected to audition at that performing arts school. So she's over the moon.

The people taking part in those campaigns are not sure if they will vote for Trump...

turtledove says

We just found out today that she's been selected to audition at that performing arts school. So she's over the moon.

That's awesome. Good for her !

turtledove says

One of her questions was "pick three of the Ten Commandments and describe what they mean to you and why they are important." She's in public school. This seems awfully close to teaching religion at a public school.

I don't know. Is it ? I'm a Math teacher, but this isn't surprising to me. Some kids are raised without religion, and may not even know what the 10 commandments are. They are really ancient rules of behavior right ? That pretty much transcend religion. And they have a place as you say in history and in western culture. This was a teachers decision, to go there, and I don't think any parents are going to have a problem with it. It's very unlikely that the teacher is even going in to religion or interested in converting students. In fact, the teacher very possibly isn't even religious.

Who knows, if there is an agenda, it might be to have a discussion about nonreligious reasons why not lying (for example) is important. I can almost guarantee that what the teacher is looking for in the answers IS NOT fear of going to hell, as the reason why following those rules are important. If he or she gets in trouble, it would be from some parents that had a problem with that.

Btw, philosophically I can see that, for those kids that are religious, and learned that the reason for not sinning is to avoid hell, 5th or 6th grade seems like about the age (if not slightly sooner) for them to start considering that there are other reasons that are less simplistic, for following such rules. IT seems like an interesting way to start a conversation about morality and ethics and how these connect to our social world.

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a country illegally.
I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a state illegally.
I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a county illegally.
I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a city illegally.
I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a neighborhood illegally.

Some would argue that humans are people first and citizens of this or that country second.

And people generally have a right to live, work, and just go wherever the hell they want.

Bellingham Bill says

Some would argue that humans are people first and citizens of this or that country second.

This fact is totally lost on Thunderlips. And it's ironic, because if I'm not mistaken, he works as an expatriate in another country, I think in south America.

yeah humans are people first and criminals second. why do they have to follow laws? they are humans, and this chamomile tea needs a freshening. we'll be right back to NPR.

I pay full taxes in BOTH countries.

A country that does not control it's own borders is not a country.
Citizenship means something, it has value.
It's not to be given away for free.

BTW, if you move to a new state you don't get all the benefits right away. Many states require a certain time frame before receiving benefits. In-state Tuition is one of them.

I want to see the case how having higher than 1910s-1920s levels of immigration, with the flat demand we have today, and the affordable housing shortage, benefits ordinary Americans.

Open Border Extremists keep refusing to address this point.

Bellingham Bill says

Some would argue that humans are people first and citizens of this or that country second.

And people generally have a right to live, work, and just go wherever the hell they want.

What you are describing is anarchy, and common people tend to do very poorly during periods of such. That's why people create governments for themselves, create rules and laws for themselves, and generally live by them. Unless we could do this on a worldwide basis, there will be major disparity in the rules and laws of each governing body, which will affect a disparity in the lives of citizens of these separate governing bodies. Any difference leaves room for exploitation of the citizens living under the more favorable rules, and THOSE citizens must decide if they want to be exploited or not. If not, then they must restrict travel and citizen rights to the people of the other country.
Simple, right?
Let me give an example using our southern neighbor. For many many years Mexico has had different laws concerning gambling and prostitution than the more restrictive US. You could say that Mexican laws were more favorable towards these two industries. Mexicans decided they didn't mind Americanos coming across their border to "exploit" the more favorable laws, in great part because such activity was te source of much money from their northern neighbors.
As years went on, the US relaxed many laws on gambling to keep the money in the country, so Mexico lost its comparative advantage in that regard. And the USA made laws to ensure social safety nets for its people. Also due to other factors, the USA economy created much more wealth and jobs than the Mexican economy. The pay scale for workers was then much higher in the USA.
So there's a comparative advantage for Mexicans to live and work in the USA. They can cross to exploit higher wages and more social benefits.
The problem is now, that the USA comparative economic advantage has decreased significantly due to different laws that govern trade, yet our social benefits are higher than ever. USA citizens are tired of being exploited, and want protection from such.
Hence we have this push to toss out the exploiters and build a wall.
If you don't agree, then you don't think people have a right to self-directed government, or a right to protect themselves from exploitation.

American workers are being laid off at an enormous rate and are being replaced with imported foreign workers. And its happening all over America. Major corporations are using government programs to bring in cheaper foreign workers with temporary visas to replace American workers everywhere. Dont wait for this to happen to you! Stay informed with legislative action alerts from the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

www.youtube.com/embed/Xzpr7b76jUU

thunderlips11 says

I pay full taxes in BOTH countries.

You are implying you pay double taxes. No you don't. You pay taxes in your country of residence and get a credit for those taxes paid against any taxes owed in the US. That would be US taxes owed after you deduct the foreign earned income exclusion of 100,800 from your income.

bob2356 says

You are implying you pay double taxes. No you don't. You pay taxes in your country of residence and get a credit for those taxes paid against any taxes owed in the US. That would be US taxes owed after you deduct the foreign earned income exclusion of 100,800 from your income.

No.

The income tax here is 1% on income earned within the country. The sales tax is 10%. I pay the latter, since I don't earn income within the country, along with my usual 1044. I do not claim my sales tax receipts on my 1044.

Additionally, I'm not drawing food stamps, housing, refugee relocation benefits nor anything else. Nor am I western unioning a large portion local-made paycheck to Mexico. I'm bringing money into the country and not taking a job from somebody here.

I'm also completely and totally legally residing here.

Explain to me how this helps:

Last year, Disney World fired 250 American workers and replaced them with cheaper foreign workers, through the H-1B visa program.

One of those displaced American workers was Leo Perrero who said he and his co-workers were shocked and surprised when they heard the news that they were being fired.

“We thought we were being brought in to be delivered news of accolades, bonuses, and possibly promotions because I had just received my best possible performance review,” Perrero said. “It was a complete surprise when we walked into this room and we could feel the chill in the air that something good was not going to happen.”

“The Disney executive broke the news to us, we were shocked and surprised that we were told our jobs were ending in 90 days,” he said. “We would be laid off in 90 days and not only that, we would have to train foreign replacements that were just brought into our country on foreign guest worker programs.”

Perrero notes that this action was not an anomaly and abuse in the H-1B visa program is happening all over the country.

“This story must be told–Americans must be warned and take action,” said Dan Stein, president of FAIR. “Walt Disney is one of many well-known examples of companies exploiting gaping holes in our nation’s immigration system to displace and undermine American workers.”

Behind all the moaning about freedom of travel, xenophobia, etc. this is the real purpose of US Immigration and VIsa Policy. A drive for Labor Flexibility (aka "Labor Discipline" in the old days) and Low Wages by 1%ers who were already making handsome incomes and possess princely wealth before these policies were enacted.

marcus says

IT's not. The government does a lot to prevent it. Obama beefed up border controls. We had 21,000 border agents as of 2012, it's probably more now. The best info we have is that the number of illegal Mexican immigrants in the country has actually decreased by 20% from it's peak in 2007.

I still say that when you contrast that fact with the demagoguery from Trump around the supposed need for a giant wall on our southern border, it shows that in some ways, we we already are an idiocracy.

I don't deny that the border is probably more secure. I agree your data probably is or could be among the best. I still think being skeptical of the stats for unauthorized people is valid though. It's not as clear cut say as asking someone if they own a home or not. There's almost no reason to lie in that scenario. Is it down, probably. Partly because of the economy. Partly because of beefed up border patrol. I just don't think anyone really has true and even close to an accurate data set of how big/small the problem really is. This is based on the simple fact these people know they're here illegally and are not singing it from the mountains or seeking out methods/surveys to make data more accurate.

I'm somewhat new here and haven't read a ton of your posts, but you have to admit there's at least a problem with immigration, right? I don't claim to have some solution, but I have to agree with the viewpoint that we have laws in this country. It becomes a slippery slop when you punish some and not others. Even if the numbers show it's 50% down, there's still something going on that directly impacts citizens that are already here. Isn't that why we have a government in the first place? This I guess is why I don't really care about the numbers. At some point they will matter. But right now there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Whether the issue is a level 10 of importance or 7 out of 10 seems like a moot point to me.

And back to Trump, I personally don't think a wall is a realistic solution. But if Trump or whoever can actually get Mexico to pay for a wall and not the US taxpayers, who really cares? Will it solve illegal immigration? No. Will it probably slow it? Yes. Fact is very few politicians who actually get elected ever get anything done that they stated during their campaign speeches. I don't get the love for going after Trump for being vague and doing what every other candidate does during an election. This is not something new to either party. Trump is just obnoxious about it. His immigration plan is unrealistic.

For example, free college and heath care I think is something most people could get on board with. But is it realistic? It may be at some point, but not in this political environment. So a candidate like Bernie is really not that much different than Trump spouting off about an unrealistic and HUGE wall. Both have the potential to be done. Both ideas appeal to large segments of the population. Both are currently unrealistic.

Bellingham Bill says

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a country illegally.

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a state illegally.

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a county illegally.

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a city illegally.

I just don't get why it is at all acceptable that some one enters a neighborhood illegally.

Some would argue that humans are people first and citizens of this or that country second.

And people generally have a right to live, work, and just go wherever the hell they want.

Addressing what Bob said. In a Utopian view of the world I agree 100% free movement any where on this earth would be the ideal. We're all humans. I get it. We should all just get along. Problem is some humans are lazy. Some humans like to steal things. The list goes on. As a society we have and need rules and laws. Is everything fair? No. But what other way is realistic based on human behaviors? I'm not sure there's a much better option then what we have going. But I could be wrong.

I'm not an open border extremist, and I can appreciate the idea of limits on immigration. But at the same time, when I consider the problem of Mexican immigrants taking jobs that prevent wages for others being higher, I am capable of at least seeing the flip side. And that is that that the Mexican immigrants life is better for having come here, and I believe the opposite of what Trump says to be true. Most Mexican immigrants are good family people and we will add their biological distinctiveness to our own, in a positive way (forgive the Star Trek Reference). The propaganda that Mexicans are lowlifes is the same nonsense that was said about the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, and every other non-Anglo immigrants that have come here. There are always more criminals among the very poor. But that doesn't mean that such ethnic generalizations apply.

I don't know whether I buy the conspiracy idea of immigration being intentional to keep wage inflation down. Surely it has this affect to a degree, but it's not clear how much. . Perhaps it is tolerated in part for these reasons. But the truth is, that a lot of immigrants are willing to pick fruit or work in kitchens or otherwise do near slave labor. IT's the system we live in that perpetuates this.

You say the (essentially) slave labor should only exist outside of the US ?

Tiny little efforts to restrict immigration aren't going to prevent the exploitation of workers. Especially not now, with where we are with respect to automation technologies.

I don't know what the solution is to the worker pay problem. Ever since so many unions were killed, we are kind of screwed.

But also, sometimes I get a little philosophical about it, and think that there is an evolution going on with economics as there is on so many other fronts. That is, either most people have to be poor, or we need to learn how to live in more sustainable environmentally friendly ways. Either that or we need a much lower population. Or both.

Or to put it differently, I don't think the planet could handle most of the workers in the world being able to consume, even the way the average American does now. Some (Trump lovers) say that we should just live in our bubble here in the US and live our rich lives and let the rest of the world figure out what they can do. It's sort of a "fuck you I've got mine" but on a national level. That probably isn't sustainable either. Which might be why some leaders seem to want to gradually move us towards some kind of a one world system. I'm not saying I'm for that or that I believe there are some powers that have a plan. But sometimes I do wish that were the case.