patrick.net

Sniper says

Here's the first $ 4.5 Trillion, who is paying that back? You? Or your kids?

Just a bit outside... Nice try though.

This is the assets of the Federal Reserve. No taxes were raised because of the Fed taking on troubled assets. The US debt was not increased because of the Federal Reserve taking on troubled assets.

Care to try again? Maybe you can show me a link where the bailout cost the US taxpayer $10T. I'm guessing we've heard the last of Nuttboxer on this thread.

Maybe the debt will be paid off by illegal immigrants, technology, a zero percent tax rate, or magic fairy dust, but the reality is that the US debt is increasing constantly, no one cares, and spending more money to reduce the debt will only lead to disaster.

Debt didn't work out too well for Rome, Germany, Japan, Greece, or Zimbabwe.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

anon_7c0c9 says

he posted a chart of assets, not debt.

An asset held by one entity is a debt owed by someone else.

anon_121ac says

Maybe the debt will be paid off by illegal immigrants, technology, a zero percent tax rate, or magic fairy dust, but the reality is that the US debt is increasing constantly, no one cares, and spending more money to reduce the debt will only lead to disaster.

Debt didn't work out too well for Rome, Germany, Japan, Greece, or Zimbabwe.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Relax, it's debt we can afford. The economy is growing too. If there was a real problem, wall street would not be at record highs.

oil says

Think.

I think you are nuts.

When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.

Sniper says

An asset held by one entity is a debt owed by someone else.

That is only the case with accounts receivables. The car that I own is an asset for me and is not a debt owed by anyone.

So, again, I ask--can you show any links or data that illustrate the $10Trillion that the bailout supposedly cost the US taxpayer.

Clearly Nuttboxer has run from this discussion rather than admit he was wrong. Will you do any better?

The US is in debt because of welfare, wars, interest, and bailouts.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.

Sniper says

Wrong again, if you have a loan on it, it's a asset on the books at the bank and a liability (debt) to you. Why am I not surprised you don't understand that. It only becomes a asset to you if it's paid for free and clear.

No, I'm not wrong. You think I don't understand what a loan is, you imbecile?

I don't have a loan. I own it outright.

Now, can we get to the part where you link to the $10T in taxes that the US taxpayer had to pay? Or the $10T that was added to the US debt due to the bailout?

So far you and Nuttboxer have shown nothing.

Sniper says

Reading comprehension issues again? What did I post?

No, I read it correctly. Like the part where you said I was wrong. Care to reconsider that?

Also, still waiting for you to provide anything showing the $10T cost of the bailout....

Sniper says

Why don't you understand that? Do you know what a Balance Sheet is?

lol--now you're just trying to distract and change the conversation. What in the world would make you think I don't understand that?

Have you found any support to show where the $10T got added to the debt? Or the tax increase of $10T?

NuttBoxer says

joeyjojojunior says

The meltdown cost the taxpayers

How is being a taxpayer relevant to the crash? Everyone made the obvious connection with your statement because the bailout cost trillions in taxes.

Still waiting on your response to the above...

NuttBoxer says

Still waiting on your response to the above...

Sorry--not sure I understand the question. I'm not trying to split hairs by saying taxpayers. I'm saying the bailout was almost cost neutral. As shown by the GAO accounting.

Now--the meltdown/crash cost plenty to the US economy. But the bailout is not the same as the meltdown.

Sniper says

Just another day with the Troll.

Did you find the links and sources that show the $10T in additional debt yet?

Sniper says

All the numbers you want, right here:

No, actually that is none of the numbers I want. I'm looking for you to show where the $10T cost of the bailout is coming from. That link does not answer that.

joeyjojojunior says

NuttBoxer says

I disagree. They learned they can be as reckless as they want with other people's money, then when it blows up in their faces, they can make us pay for it!

I know we've been over this time and again, and I'm the first in line to prosecute Wall St., but to be fair, the bailout to which you refer cost the US taxpayers basically nothing. It was all loans that have been paid back with interest.

joeyjojojunior says

I'm saying the bailout was almost cost neutral. As shown by the GAO accounting.

Now--the meltdown/crash cost plenty to the US economy. But the bailout is not the same as the meltdown.

Just posting the above for reference. I see where the issue is here. You believe I was only talking about the bailout. Now whether I agree with your economics there or not is another issue, but my comment was in reference to the OP, which did not use your compartmentalization. Neither did I. I blame the financial elite for all of it, break it down or lump it all together, it matters not.

But you want to focus on the bailout, fine. Since the government earns no money on it's own, it's all borrowed from the Federal Reserve, and the interest owed on that borrowing is paid back through taxes, which are levied on US Citizens, how the fuck does it cost us nothing!?

NuttBoxer says

Since the government earns no money on it's own, it's all borrowed from the Federal Reserve, and the interest owed on that borrowing is paid back through taxes, which are levied on US Citizens, how the fuck does it cost us nothing!?

Maybe because if your system is ever increasing debt, nothing ever gets paid back? You don't live 200 years and the national debt has been increasing steadily since the 1960s so 60 years might as well be forever. I can accurately say for anyone currently alive, it has cost you nothing.

NuttBoxer says

Since the government earns no money on it's own, it's all borrowed from the Federal Reserve, and the interest owed on that borrowing is paid back through taxes, which are levied on US Citizens, how the fuck does it cost us nothing!?

Actually the Fed returns almost all earnings to the US Government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/11/business/economy/fed-returns-77-billion-in-profits-to-treasury.html
But I agree that Wall St. and the big banks screwed over the US public enormously before the crash. Whether or not it could be proven in a court of law, the behavior was absolutely fraudulent and should have been punished. Unfortunately, we didn't learn our lesson and are going down the same road again, a decade later.

anon_c1f03 says

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

The uneducated most certainly do not understand money and banking. If they did, they wouldn't be on welfare.

I say shave 75% off the top off every Real Estate parcel in America. Then raise the Fed interest rates to 6%, revisit the HW Bush(Now that we know what evil crooks they were and were the God Father to what we have now) S&L Loans regulation that killed personal saving accounts being paid.

I would rather see my bank account grow 20% YOY than my house. Less you expect your grand children to live in caves and fend for themselves.

.anon_c1f03 says

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system

Exhibit A:

Tenpoundbass says

I say shave 75% off the top off every Real Estate parcel in America. Then raise the Fed interest rates to 6%, revisit the HW Bush(Now that we know what evil crooks they were and were the God Father to what we have now) S&L Loans regulation that killed personal saving accounts being paid.

I would rather see my bank account grow 20% YOY than my house. Less you expect your grand children to live in caves and fend for themselves

joeyjojojunior says

Exhibit A:

Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between an "Asset" and a "Liability".

Sniper says

Says the guy who doesn't know the difference between an "Asset" and a "Liability".

hahahaha. No that would be you, piggy. You're the one who went down this stupid path because you can never admit you are wrong.

Gentle Reader,

No, I think the US Financiers, Housing Developers, and Investors learned a great deal. They learned that they wouldn't go to jail. This is a very important lesson.

Regards,
Roidy

joeyjojojunior says

No, actually that is none of the numbers I want. I'm looking for you to show where the $10T cost of the bailout is coming from. That link does not answer that.

Joey - I can't help but ridicule you over this. The bailout and the all the wreckage caused by the financial sector (see low interest rates to rob savers to help bankers and balance sheets) is all part of the "fix" that IS NOT BEING PAID BACK. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

This is why we bring up the 10T in added government debt. IT WAS CAUSED BY THE DOWNTURN CAUSED BY THE IRRESPONSIBILITY OF THE FINANCIAL SECTOR AND OUR CRONY GOVERNMENT.

WineHorror says

Joey - I can't help but ridicule you over this. The bailout and the all the wreckage caused by the financial sector (see low interest rates to rob savers to help bankers and balance sheets) is all part of the "fix" that IS NOT BEING PAID BACK. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

You can discuss, but you're not ridiculing. You wrongly attribute low interest rates to the bailout. With or without a bailout, interest rates would have gone to almost zero. The bailout had almost zero to do with it.

I understand perfectly and that's why I'm trying to educate folks about the true cost/benefit of the bailout specifically. You can't lump the bailout in with the crash/wreckage and then say that's why the bailout was bad.

anon_7c0c9 says

Maybe because if your system is ever increasing debt, nothing ever gets paid back? You don't live 200 years and the national debt has been increasing steadily since the 1960s so 60 years might as well be forever. I can accurately say for anyone currently alive, it has cost you nothing.

You didn't have that context in your original reply, so your statement at face value, was not true.

Since I have kids, and I love my kids, this is not acceptable logic for me. I plan on, to the extent that I am capable, making this world a better place when I left it then when I came into it. That means rejecting ridiculous debt that will cripple future generations for the sake of bailing out institutions, instead of holding the individuals in charge of those companies responsible, and prosecuting them under the law.

There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.

anon_acf85 says

There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.

There is only one way to free a nation. Through a Secular Capitalistic Democracy.
Did you know Apple Inc, a product of America, is worth more than the entire stock market of Russia?
Did you know Venezuela has an average income of $28.00 per month, while we make that in an hour?
I bet you didn't.

Whether the US is Communist, Socialist, Democratic, or Capitalist today does not change the fact that the USA is a
bankrupt warmongering police state.

anon_acf85 says

Whether the US is Communist, Socialist, Democratic, or Capitalist today does not change the fact that the USA is a
bankrupt warmongering police state.

If we were a bankrupt warmongering police state, like you confidently state, we would not:
Be the richest nation in the world.
Apple, just a single company being worth more than Russia (supposedly a superpower)
Hundreds of millions of people dying to get into the USA.
And you and your comrades would not want to stay in the USA.

If you could print all the money you wanted, and steal all the money you wanted, couldn’t you manage to stay out of debt?

Hitler is to Permabears/Minarchists (but I practically repeat myself) what Jesus or Aliens are to Cults.

Always right around the corner.

Only buying more gold and bitcoins can stop the coming of the 4th Reich!

I remember hearing Reagan, Bush the Elder, and Bush the Younger all called Hitler by the left in their day, too. Funny, the moment Obama replaced "W", all the whinging about the Patriot Act came to a halt. Obama spied on and arrested many reporters, hardly gave interviews, ran the most secretive administration since god-knows-when, but the media was still worshipful.

That being said, Obama wasn't Stalin, he was too much of a pussy and too inept. He was more like a stupidly idealistic 1960s third world Leader. Like them he had national and international sycophants among the Elite Classes. Oh, Kukume Mayfuso, you are the great leader of people power! Oh you're going to lead Kakaswaziziland into a bright future with your Mega-Dam!

I think oil is like that other bot that Patrick banned. That "Desotonews" link goes to the same article that robot that was driving @WookieMan nuts.

Anyway, nothing says opposition to TYRANNY! than rejecting seat belt laws, and especially speed limits, those rapacious tools of cruel absolutism.

Maybe the issue isn't that Americans shouldn't use
seatbelts, perhaps the point is that Americans
should resist by disobeying nanny state laws.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

robot that was driving @WookieMan nuts.

I just checked this thread on another browser. Glad I ignored Oil and surprised he's only got 5 so far. Pure rubbish what that bot or copy/past troll puts up here. Will use ignore sparingly, but if it's clear the person isn't real or won't literally participate in the dialog, then goodbye.

WookieMan says

I just checked this thread on another browser. Glad I ignored Oil and surprised he's only got 5 so far. Pure rubbish what that bot or copy/past troll puts up here. Will use ignore sparingly, but if it's clear the person isn't real or won't literally participate in the dialog, then goodbye.

Go easy on him. He just needs a couple of more bottles before he passes out.

oil says

The US is rigged. Since the USA is a police state, Americans are wondering how to resist. Voting doesn't work. Protesting is illegal. An armed rebellion would probably be crushed.

Yet you're still here in this obvious hellscape where most Americans still go to work and pay the rent and screw every weekend and worry more about their credit card bills than the 1 in 10 million chance they will be shot by a cop.

Why are you here?

anon_25c83 says

Yet you're still here in this obvious hellscape where most Americans still go to work and pay the rent and screw every weekend and worry more about their credit card bills than the 1 in 10 million chance they will be shot by a cop.

Why are you here?

Welfare.

Strategist says

He just needs a couple of more bottles

of ether?