patrick.net

Malcolm says

One small spill over benefit of Trump being elected is that it is kind of becoming hip to be white again.

"Its ok to be white" signs at schools were met w media coverage and police reports cause of them dern racists. Yes, according to anti-trumpers, allowing white people to feel ok about themselves is a crime.

CBOEtrader says

The results of the Australia gun ban are murky at best.

But interesting.

bob2356 says

Which is better for killing lots of people fast?

Please share with us, how many of the 5 million AR-15's in existence in the US were used for mass killings this year versus how many are used for sport shooting, eliminating varmints on farms, and other lawful uses?

bob2356 says

Your proof is missing somehow.

There were 11 mass shooting in Australia from 1986 to 1996. The number since then is zero.

How about sharing the number of violent crimes (robberies, rapes, beatings, ect.) since the gun ban went into affect. Is it just about mass killings that you liberals care about?

CajunSteve says

Look through almost any thread on here and there will be at least a half dozen memes that judge liberals as less than themselves.

Unfortunately, those are factual.

Sniper says

How about sharing the number of violent crimes (robberies, rapes, beatings, ect.) since the gun ban went into affect. Is it just about mass killings that you liberals care about?

First, I am not anti gun or liberal, but facts is facts. Australia is averaging 1 out of 100,000 deaths from homicide. The USA, depending on what numbers you can find are between 3 and 5 per hundred thousand. I did find one source that shows rapes in Australia are 5% higher than the USA. Other crimes seem to be lower, but they are basically grouped as violent crimes, so I can't find much on robberies. Snopes classifies the claim that banning guns in Australia led to higher crime rates as false.

https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

This alone does not sway me to wanting to ban guns, although going back to some earlier comments, dressing up a gun to look scarier or badass to me implies that there is something wrong with that particular owner. If you are using your gun to intimidate anyone, you are a threat and should lose your right.

My concern is also banning guns, because during a certain time frame things seem stable. I have had the conversation in the past about different people throughout history who should not have been passive about guns. Liberals make the mistake of not realizing that there is a compelling point to be made that the reason the world is getting safer and safer is because guns keep things level. Removing guns from a society leaves the potential for a dictator to take over, or for an ISIS group to make a power grab.

I live in San Diego, one of the safest places in the world. We have reasonably lax gun laws here, just south of us is Tijuana, Mexico. They have a full ban on private gun ownership. They are overrun by cartels. Things have improved, but the deaths from gun violence, in a country that bans guns, was in the 10s of thousands in Tijuana alone. Those poor people are helpless and trapped in a hell hole. If a cartel decides to do a home invasion and kill an entire family, because of this or that political connection, there just isn't a good guy with a gun to come to the rescue. It was happening daily in the 2000s.

Here's two things everybody should agree on:

The FBI and Sheriff's Office must be called into Account.

I would also remind folks that Omar Mateen was also referred to the FBI at least once (may have been several times) before the previous record Mass Murder in Orlando.

A review of the forcible mental health incarceration laws that don't apparently allow troubled individuals with a rich past of violent threats and interactions with authorities to be incarcerated for the safety of themselves and the public.

Why a huge K-12 campus lacks elemental security, meaning an individual, posted at the entrance. Quite frankly, if you're not a vendor, parent, faculty, staff or ER Personnel, why should ANYBODY be admitted into a school building without ID, a valid reason, and a pat-down or x-ray?

Businesses with a fraction of the people, all of whom are adults, generally have at least one person at the door or in front of the elevators demanding ID. Why not a campus of 1000+ kids? Doesn't need to be a full-fledged cop or deputy, just a security guard. Great set-aside job for Veterans.

We usually hear, "It was a total surprise... quiet kid..." this time that is emphatically not the case.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Why a huge K-12 campus lacks elemental security, meaning an individual, posted at the entrance. Quite frankly, if you're not a vendor, parent, faculty, staff or ER Personnel, why should ANYBODY be admitted into a school building without ID, a valid reason, and a pat-down or x-ray?

I'm curious as well, because a couple of years ago I visited my old neighborhood of Coral Springs, FL. My old house is actually quite close to the recent shooting. There was a Sheriff's car parked in front of all of my old schools, I drove by all of them. Coral Springs Elementary, Middle and High School all had very visible exterior security.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Why a huge K-12 campus lacks elemental security, meaning an individual, posted at the entrance

lol--you think a school campus has "an" entrance?

Why don't you research how many entrances there are at most school campuses and then determine how many security guards that would mean. Then finally, figure how much additional cost that would add. Oh, yeah, who's going to pay?

Resource Officers are very good, but mostly they're walking the halls and keeping order inside the building.

Is there nobody stationed at the entrance at all times during normal school hours? As far as I've seen, the answer is "No".

CajunSteve says

lol--you think a school campus has "an" entrance?

Most schools have one main entrance that is open. The rest are emergency doors that are locked from the outside and sound an alarm if pushed from the inside. Every school I went to was this way.

At my Elementary, JHS, and two HS's, the only way in was the main door, and the service entrance locked from the outside. The staff could open these from the outside only with a key, although they would open out for anybody pushing on the bar, which would make a sound and light up a board. This was 30 years ago.

If not, this is a minor fix that should have been required decades ago.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Most schools have one main entrance that is open. The rest are emergency doors that are locked from the outside and sound an alarm if pushed from the inside. Every school I went to was this way.

Why don't we just lock the main door too then? And any visitor must get buzzed in?

CajunSteve says

Why don't we just lock the main door too then? And any visitor must get buzzed in?

Why not? As long as anybody can push a door to get outside, what's the problem?

Most first year teachers make $30k/year + cost of bennies and pension, but schools can afford ONE (1) full time security guard at the entrance? In areas where first year teachers don't make $30k+bennies, a $9/hr job is considered plush, so still no problem finding and affording a guard.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Why not? As long as anybody can push a door to get outside, what's the problem?

That's what pretty much all schools do already.

CajunSteve says

That's what pretty much all schools do already.

Well, this one didn't.

And it's not a school in bumville with 100-200 students, but a massive campus of over 3000 students.

CajunSteve says

Why don't we just lock the main door too then? And any visitor must get buzzed in?

Schools in that area seemed to all have a main entrance and then the admin office was right next to the main entrance and I think the community officer had his office one door down. You can't lock the place down because there are PE classes and students move from portables to interior classrooms during period changes.

He waltzed right in the door.


900 students on an average day just in this building. Many office buildings, many with a fraction of the people, all adults, have a FT guard at the entrance. And only one entrance for the public to enter; all other entrances only open with a valid key or keycard.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-shooting-map.html

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Well, this one didn't.

Yes, it did. Read this article for the details:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-20180215-story.html

Malcolm says

Schools in that area seemed to all have a main entrance and then the admin office was right next to the main entrance and I think the community officer had his office one door down. You can't lock the place down because there are PE classes and students move from portables to interior classrooms during period changes.

Again--read up. The school is locked down. The shooter knew the routine.

CajunSteve says

Yes, it did. Read this article for the details:

I just did, and nope.

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High has fences, gates and emergency procedures to keep students safe, but a determined gunman found a way around them.

Bullshit. If it had real security procedures and a dedicated guard for 1000 people, this wouldn't have happened.

He came when he knew the gates would be open and set off a fire alarm that would dismantle a safety system, officials say. And the school resource officer, who is supposed to help protect students, may not have been on school grounds at the time.

The SRO is NOT a dedicated security guard posted at the entrance. He will be breaking up fights, looking for kids sneaking out of the building, pursuing truants, meeting with parents etc. Security means a person at the door at all times. The SRO may not have even been on the campus. This kid was KNOWN to the admins and staff.

Accused gunman Nikolas Cruz, who had been expelled from the school for behavioral problems, arrived on campus about 20 minutes before the school day ended.

That’s the time school officials usually open the gates around campus so students and staff parked in various parking lots, as well as school buses and parents picking up their kids, can get out easily, said Jerry Graziose, the district’s former director of school safety.

And gunmen in, or perhaps non-custodial parents swooping in, eh? Totally retarded. Something so basically goofy only an Education PhD would think of and implement

“During the day, those areas locked. But when you’re getting ready for kids to leave, all the gates in the different areas have to be unlocked, and it takes a few minutes for the person doing that,” Graziose .said

Dumbassery on so many levels.

CajunSteve says

Again--read up. The school is locked down. The shooter knew the routine.

The school wasn't locked down. There was nobody posted at the entrance. The staff had unlocked all the egress points before the school was officially closed. The SRO may not have even been in the building or the campus, much less watching the door and stopping visitors. That's not security.

Imagine if a MIC Contractor opened the gates 20 minutes before the end of day and didn't have a guard checking IDs at the entrance of a Skunkworks building. And the sole designated security person was somewhere else outside the facility (interviewing a potential employee?), much less checking IDs at the entrance points. Would you call that "Well Guarded?" "Why, Congressman, we were well guarded. The Chicoms just were well prepared when they stole the F-37 plans!"

From your own article.

CajunSteve says

Again--read up. The school is locked down. The shooter knew the routine.

? The article made my point, you can't lock the place down all the time and you can't lock it during a fire alarm. That is a big hole without a clear solution. It would have helped if the community officer were there, I read that he may not have been on campus, that is an issue. That may be THE issue.

At SDSU the classroom doors can be locked from the inside. If this is not the case, schools need to be able to lock classroom doors, maybe with a WiFi system.

I don't understand. When I was a kid, we had to wait until all the safety crossing guards were deployed before they let us out the door. All by walkie-talkies back pre-cell phone era, when only Drug Dealers and Executives had beepers and car phones.

I've seen temples and churches deploy staff for traffic purposes. A campus of 3000+ kids, bigger than most Churches, doesn't deploy staff members in and outside the building?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

The school wasn't locked down

Of course it was. You can't keep it locked down when kids enter and exit. That's the point.

CajunSteve says

Of course it was. You can't keep it locked down when kids enter and exit. That's the point.

Your article states that the sole security officer may not have even been onsite, and everything was opened 20 minutes before the school closed.

That's not a lock down, that's a wide open.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

I don't understand. When I was a kid, we had to wait until all the safety crossing guards were deployed before they let us out the door. All by walkie-talkies back pre-cell phone era, when only Drug Dealers and Executives had beepers and car phones.

So, what do you propose. Having a SWAT team clear the campus every day before and after school?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

he SRO is NOT a dedicated security guard posted at the entrance. He will be breaking up fights, looking for kids sneaking out of the building, pursuing truants, meeting with parents etc. Security means a person at the door at all times. The SRO may not have even been on the campus. This kid was KNOWN to the admins and staff.

Nope--because having a security guard there would make no difference.

Remind me how the security guard at Mandalay Bay did?

CajunSteve says

So, what do you propose. Having a SWAT team clear the campus every day before and after school?

No, but at least one armed community officer to be on campus at all times. But, before doing anything, take a breath and don't go to extremes like on site SWAT teams or random gun legislation.

Malcolm says

? The article made my point, you can't lock the place down all the time and you can't lock it during a fire alarm. That is a big hole without a clear solution. It would have helped if the community officer were there, I read that he may not have been on campus, that is an issue. That may be THE issue.

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

CajunSteve says

Remind me how the security guard at Mandalay Bay did?

Different situation, he was trying to take out a sniper's nest, very defensible. This was a case of a sole gunmen penetrating a facility that in theory was secure. Guys, please grow up, the good guys don't always win in a gunfight, but it is at least a chance.

CajunSteve says

Yes, we can spend a zillion dollars and put armed guards at every entrance and exit 24 hours a day, or we can simply make it more impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

But they ask you clear as day, on the questionnaire, if you are mentally unstable. It is a crime to lie on the form. LOL

CajunSteve says

I agree with you except for the community officer part. He would have been the 1st casualty.

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer? First off, the AR15 can't really be concealed. In my scenario it is better than 50/50 that the officer would win, or at least the gunfight outside might have prompted a different response. The whole thing would have played out differently, including not being able to activate the fire alarm.

CajunSteve says

So, what do you propose. Having a SWAT team clear the campus every day before and after school?

How about ONE (1) security guard for just one building that alone contains 1000 students, staff, and faculty on an average day?

This isn't a one-room schoolhouse in Intercourse, PA or Dry Weeds, Nevada. This is a Campus with 3100+ students, plus a few hundred faculty and staff.

When you don't have ONE (1) dedicated security guard for the entire campus - not an SRO whose responsibilities take them off site but somebody at an entrance point watching cameras - you have NO security.

It would be a scandal if this was an office park. It's infamous that there was not a single dedicated security person onsite and watching the doors and/or cameras for what is a massive campus, a town unto itself.

In addition, gunmen like this are actually cowards. Just seeing an armed presence might have deterred him.

Malcolm says

Why do you take it as a certainty that the gunman would win against an armed community officer? First off, the AR15 can't really be concealed. In my scenario it is better than 50/50 that the officer would win, or at least the gunfight outside might have prompted a different response. The whole thing would have played out differently, including not being able to activate the fire alarm.

Because the security guard would likely be flirting with one of the secretaries or talking to a student or playing candy crush when the assault rifle toting murderer came up on him. The element of surprise would be squarely on the side of the kid.

CajunSteve says

Because the security guard would likely be flirting with one of the secretaries or talking to a student or playing candy crush when the assault rifle toting murderer came up on him. The element of surprise would be squarely on the side of the kid.

Score one for CajunSteve

Here's what would have happened if they had one gatehouse at the entrance to the campus.

Kid drives up in an Uber. Guard gets the Kid's name, looks him up, he's on a list because the school already put out a warning he was not to enter and was expelled.

You've just prevented a mass shooting.

anon_cf6c6 says

tatty/joeyjoey/happygilmore now CajunSteve, why do you keep signing up NEW profiles here? This new one was just signed up today?

I'm wondering the same thing, it's every few months?

CajunSteve says

Remind me how the security guard at Mandalay Bay did?

Was he armed?

CajunSteve says

or we can simply make it impossible for mentally deranged kids to get assault weapons.

Great, what NEW law, on top of the existing 20,000 gun laws should be written to accomplish that. Please be specific and refrain from hyperbole.

I'm seriously interested on how you can accomplish that.

What NEW laws would a mentally derange kid honor, since they don't honor any of the existing ones?