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121
bob2356
2018 Feb 20, 11:57am
anon_cf6c6 says
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.
Nice try sniper.
There are even some here that claim gun ownership in homes is down the last few decades.
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.
Nice try sniper.
122
bob2356
2018 Feb 20, 12:02pm
TwoScoopsPlissken says
Yes tell us which is financed by wealthy corporations and foundations. http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1
That was 5 years ago. It's even more now.
Which organization represents a mass movement, and a democratic membership, and which one represents a steering committee financed from wealthy foundations ?
Yes tell us which is financed by wealthy corporations and foundations. http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1
That was 5 years ago. It's even more now.
123
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 20, 12:29pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 20, 12:29pm
The NRA doesn't have 5M members?
How many members does the Brady Campaign have?
Which is more representative of democratic impulses? If there is such a mass movement for Gun Control, where are their million member single issue organizations?
Tell me.
How many members does the Brady Campaign have?
Which is more representative of democratic impulses? If there is such a mass movement for Gun Control, where are their million member single issue organizations?
Tell me.
124
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 1:45pm
TwoScoopsPlissken says
I think you'll see it soon enough. But, polling tells the story pretty well. There is very broad support for common sense gun control. The NRA and Republicans' intolerance of any reform is turning ordinary people against them. I can't believe they are so tone deaf.
Which is more representative of democratic impulses? If there is such a mass movement for Gun Control, where are their million member single issue organizations?
Tell me.
I think you'll see it soon enough. But, polling tells the story pretty well. There is very broad support for common sense gun control. The NRA and Republicans' intolerance of any reform is turning ordinary people against them. I can't believe they are so tone deaf.
125
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 1:45pm
Goran_K says
No, Democracy is 1 person, 1 vote. It's not $50MM to buy the entire House and Senate.
The NRA is a private advocacy group of over 5 million citizens that gets $0 in Federal or State funding.
Seems like it's Democracy in action, not being overcome.
No, Democracy is 1 person, 1 vote. It's not $50MM to buy the entire House and Senate.
126
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 1:45pm
Facts, Not Opinion, About the State of Guns in America
After every mass shooting event, before the blood even dries, the debates and arguments begin.
This article is nothing but a series of grouped facts which tell their own story.
________
A firearm is a nonliving piece of metal.
It takes the action of a living being to fire a firearm, purposefully or accidentally.
Criminals do not follow laws.
Newly created and potential future laws will be ignored by criminals.
People who are not criminals do follow laws.
There are state and federal laws making illicit drugs illegal.
60,000-65,000 people died from drug overdoses in 2016.
There are state and federal laws making drunk driving illegal.
From 2006-2016, over 10,000 people died every year from drunk driving crashes.
Murder is illegal. Mass shootings are murder.
_______
Gun free zones disarm only those who choose to follow laws.
Almost every school shooting in the past 20 years has occurred in a “gun free zone.”
Individuals intent on harming or killing others will use any weapon or object to do so.
Evil people do not care about laws or human life.
_______
The Second Amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791. It is part of the Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights identifies pre-existing rights of all humans.
The Bill of Rights restricts the government from interfering with these rights.
The Bill of Rights does not grant any rights.
The Second Amendment protects the right to own firearms.
Repealing the Second Amendment would not remove the right to keep and bear arms.
Repealing the Second Amendment would only allow the government to violate the right to keep and bear arms.
_______
The first known “machine-gun” was patented in 1718.
The Puckle gun existed at the time of the writing of the Second Amendment.
The Second Amendment refers to “arms,” not limiting itself to covering any specific weapons or leaps of technology.
The First Amendment applies to all modern technologies including television, internet, and high-speed printing presses.
The Fourth Amendment covers modern technologies including cell phones and personal computers.
The Bill of Rights was not restricted to only technology that existed at the time of its writing.
_______
The national average for police response time is 11 minutes.
Every school has some teachers, school staff and administration officials present while in session.
School staffs are responsible for the safety of their students.
Almost all teachers and school staff in the United States are unarmed.
An unarmed individual stands little chance against an armed individual.
Many teachers have died while trying to protect students from active shooters.
_______
Semi-automatic weapons fire one round for every time the trigger is depressed.
Automatic weapons continuously fire while the trigger is depressed.
The functionality of an AR-15 and any standard semi-auto hunting rifle is the same.
AR-15’s are rifles with accessories to make them easier to operate. Most are black. Neither the accessories nor color make the rifle any deadlier.
The “AR” in AR-15 stands for “ARmalite,” the company that invented that style of rifle.
“AR” does not stand for “assault rifle.”
An “assault rifle” is a selective-fire weapon that can fire in both semi-automatic or automatic modes.
Most news reporters describe AR-15’s as “assault rifles.”
The caliber of an AR-15 is either .223 of an inch, or 5.56mm.
Bullets from an AR-15 are not the largest bullets.
A standard 9mm round is approximately 60 percent larger than a AR-15 round.
A standard hunting round (.308 or 30.06) is more than 30 percent larger than an AR-15 round.
Less than 400 people are killed per year by any kind of rifle, including the AR-15.
The National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934 regulates fully automatic weapons, suppressors, shotguns, and other destructive devices such as bombs or grenades. A special license from the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives) is required to manufacture or own any of these items.
_______
Background checks are required for all online firearm dealer purchases.
Background checks are required for all gun show dealer purchases.
Individuals selling private property to another individual who is a non-felon is legal.
Criminals stealing firearms do not go through background checks.
Criminals selling firearms to other criminals will not conduct background checks.
_______
There are 270-310 million firearms in the United States.
Approximately 40 percent of all U.S. households have a firearm.
Giving a liberal estimate of 13,000 firearm homicides per year, that is a 0.00004025 chance of being killed by a firearm. (1 in approximately 25,000 Americans).
40,200 people died in car accidents in 2016. (1 in approximately 8,000 Americans).
_______
The National Rifle Association is composed of 5 million+ Americans.
The NRA represents its membership.
The NRA does not receive government funding.
The NRA teaches gun safety for free in schools that will allow it.
_______
There are thousands of firearm laws and regulations at both state and federal level.
Before 1968, you could buy an AR-15 through the mail.
There was no background check system before 1993.
School shootings were a rare event until the 1990’s.
_______
These facts should have told you a story. You can ignore them and argue merely based on emotion, but that does nothing to change the facts, especially these last two:
Inanimate objects do not kill people intentionally.
People kill.
https://www.newsmax.com/johncylc/guns-firearms-second-amendment-parkland/2018/02/16/id/843820/
After every mass shooting event, before the blood even dries, the debates and arguments begin.
This article is nothing but a series of grouped facts which tell their own story.
________
A firearm is a nonliving piece of metal.
It takes the action of a living being to fire a firearm, purposefully or accidentally.
Criminals do not follow laws.
Newly created and potential future laws will be ignored by criminals.
People who are not criminals do follow laws.
There are state and federal laws making illicit drugs illegal.
60,000-65,000 people died from drug overdoses in 2016.
There are state and federal laws making drunk driving illegal.
From 2006-2016, over 10,000 people died every year from drunk driving crashes.
Murder is illegal. Mass shootings are murder.
_______
Gun free zones disarm only those who choose to follow laws.
Almost every school shooting in the past 20 years has occurred in a “gun free zone.”
Individuals intent on harming or killing others will use any weapon or object to do so.
Evil people do not care about laws or human life.
_______
The Second Amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791. It is part of the Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights identifies pre-existing rights of all humans.
The Bill of Rights restricts the government from interfering with these rights.
The Bill of Rights does not grant any rights.
The Second Amendment protects the right to own firearms.
Repealing the Second Amendment would not remove the right to keep and bear arms.
Repealing the Second Amendment would only allow the government to violate the right to keep and bear arms.
_______
The first known “machine-gun” was patented in 1718.
The Puckle gun existed at the time of the writing of the Second Amendment.
The Second Amendment refers to “arms,” not limiting itself to covering any specific weapons or leaps of technology.
The First Amendment applies to all modern technologies including television, internet, and high-speed printing presses.
The Fourth Amendment covers modern technologies including cell phones and personal computers.
The Bill of Rights was not restricted to only technology that existed at the time of its writing.
_______
The national average for police response time is 11 minutes.
Every school has some teachers, school staff and administration officials present while in session.
School staffs are responsible for the safety of their students.
Almost all teachers and school staff in the United States are unarmed.
An unarmed individual stands little chance against an armed individual.
Many teachers have died while trying to protect students from active shooters.
_______
Semi-automatic weapons fire one round for every time the trigger is depressed.
Automatic weapons continuously fire while the trigger is depressed.
The functionality of an AR-15 and any standard semi-auto hunting rifle is the same.
AR-15’s are rifles with accessories to make them easier to operate. Most are black. Neither the accessories nor color make the rifle any deadlier.
The “AR” in AR-15 stands for “ARmalite,” the company that invented that style of rifle.
“AR” does not stand for “assault rifle.”
An “assault rifle” is a selective-fire weapon that can fire in both semi-automatic or automatic modes.
Most news reporters describe AR-15’s as “assault rifles.”
The caliber of an AR-15 is either .223 of an inch, or 5.56mm.
Bullets from an AR-15 are not the largest bullets.
A standard 9mm round is approximately 60 percent larger than a AR-15 round.
A standard hunting round (.308 or 30.06) is more than 30 percent larger than an AR-15 round.
Less than 400 people are killed per year by any kind of rifle, including the AR-15.
The National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934 regulates fully automatic weapons, suppressors, shotguns, and other destructive devices such as bombs or grenades. A special license from the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives) is required to manufacture or own any of these items.
_______
Background checks are required for all online firearm dealer purchases.
Background checks are required for all gun show dealer purchases.
Individuals selling private property to another individual who is a non-felon is legal.
Criminals stealing firearms do not go through background checks.
Criminals selling firearms to other criminals will not conduct background checks.
_______
There are 270-310 million firearms in the United States.
Approximately 40 percent of all U.S. households have a firearm.
Giving a liberal estimate of 13,000 firearm homicides per year, that is a 0.00004025 chance of being killed by a firearm. (1 in approximately 25,000 Americans).
40,200 people died in car accidents in 2016. (1 in approximately 8,000 Americans).
_______
The National Rifle Association is composed of 5 million+ Americans.
The NRA represents its membership.
The NRA does not receive government funding.
The NRA teaches gun safety for free in schools that will allow it.
_______
There are thousands of firearm laws and regulations at both state and federal level.
Before 1968, you could buy an AR-15 through the mail.
There was no background check system before 1993.
School shootings were a rare event until the 1990’s.
_______
These facts should have told you a story. You can ignore them and argue merely based on emotion, but that does nothing to change the facts, especially these last two:
Inanimate objects do not kill people intentionally.
People kill.
https://www.newsmax.com/johncylc/guns-firearms-second-amendment-parkland/2018/02/16/id/843820/
127
MrMagic
2018 Feb 20, 1:46pm
MrMagic
2018 Feb 20, 1:46pm
bob2356 says
How much has the number of actual households risen in the last few decades?
oops..
Sniper says
Why do you IGNORE the rise in households over the decades. Oh that's right, it doesn't fit the twisted Liberal narrative from CBS and NYT in that chart.
Still think actual household gun ownership is down 40%?
Those pesky math facts again...
anon_cf6c6 says
There are even some here that claim gun ownership in homes is down the last few decades.
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%.
How much has the number of actual households risen in the last few decades?
oops..
Sniper says
Not these percentages again, some just haven't learned math.
In 1978 there were 73 million households, so 51% of 73 = 37 million were gun owners.
In 2016 there were 126 million households, so 36% of 126 = 45 million were gun owners.
Quick math question, which is larger, 37 million or 45 million?
Why do you IGNORE the rise in households over the decades. Oh that's right, it doesn't fit the twisted Liberal narrative from CBS and NYT in that chart.
Still think actual household gun ownership is down 40%?
Those pesky math facts again...
128
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 1:46pm
bob2356 says
Down 40%??? Really??? This is YOUR chart below.
Numbers matter, somehow you don't understand them or can read a chart. Let's try for the THIRD time.
Sniper says
So tell us, which number of households are bigger, 37 million or 45 million?
Still think it's down 40%.
bob2356 says
Apparently logic doesn't.
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.
Down 40%??? Really??? This is YOUR chart below.
Numbers matter, somehow you don't understand them or can read a chart. Let's try for the THIRD time.
Sniper says
Not these percentages again, some just haven't learned math.
In 1978 there were 73 million households, so 51% of 73 = 37 million were gun owners.
In 2016 there were 126 million households, so 36% of 126 = 45 million were gun owners.
Quick math question, which is larger, 37 million or 45 million?
What was that again about "right wing math"?
More households own guns NOW.
So tell us, which number of households are bigger, 37 million or 45 million?
Still think it's down 40%.
bob2356 says
Numbers matter.
Apparently logic doesn't.
129
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 1:46pm
bob2356 says
Down 40%??? Really??? This is YOUR chart below.
Numbers matter, somehow you don't understand them or can read a chart. Let's try for the THIRD time.
Sniper says
So tell us, which number of households are bigger, 37 million or 45 million?
Still think it's down 40%.
bob2356 says
Apparently logic doesn't.
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.
Down 40%??? Really??? This is YOUR chart below.
Numbers matter, somehow you don't understand them or can read a chart. Let's try for the THIRD time.
Sniper says
Not these percentages again, some just haven't learned math.
In 1978 there were 73 million households, so 51% of 73 = 37 million were gun owners.
In 2016 there were 126 million households, so 36% of 126 = 45 million were gun owners.
Quick math question, which is larger, 37 million or 45 million?
What was that again about "right wing math"?
More households own guns NOW.
So tell us, which number of households are bigger, 37 million or 45 million?
Still think it's down 40%.
bob2356 says
Numbers matter.
Apparently logic doesn't.
130
Goran_K
2018 Feb 20, 1:48pm
Goran_K
2018 Feb 20, 1:48pm
bob2356 says
Uh how would anyone even know this or get accurate information about this?
As a matter of fact and culture, gun owners aren't very open about what they have inside their home. Gun owners aren't going to be like, "Yeah I have guns inside my house. 17 exactly."
That sounds ridiculous.
No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.
Nice try sniper.
Uh how would anyone even know this or get accurate information about this?
As a matter of fact and culture, gun owners aren't very open about what they have inside their home. Gun owners aren't going to be like, "Yeah I have guns inside my house. 17 exactly."
That sounds ridiculous.
131
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 1:54pm
anon_cf6c6 says
By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.
Criminals do not follow laws.
Newly created and potential future laws will be ignored by criminals.
People who are not criminals do follow laws.
By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.
132
Goran_K
2018 Feb 20, 1:55pm
Goran_K
2018 Feb 20, 1:55pm
anon_8f378 says
Uh no. That's not what people are saying.
You need to have laws that are calibrated to stop the problem WHILE also working to not deny people, who have done nothing wrong, their rights.
Hyperbole on either side is not useful or productive.
By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.
Uh no. That's not what people are saying.
You need to have laws that are calibrated to stop the problem WHILE also working to not deny people, who have done nothing wrong, their rights.
Hyperbole on either side is not useful or productive.
133
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 3:25pm
anon_8f378 says
By Liberal logic, if we just passed NEW laws, the criminals will follow them, even though they don't follow existing laws.
By this logic, we should get rid of all laws. Criminals don't follow them, after all.
By Liberal logic, if we just passed NEW laws, the criminals will follow them, even though they don't follow existing laws.
134
HappyGilmore
2018 Feb 20, 5:00pm
Goran_K says
I'm not sure to which people you refer, but the posters on here absolutely are saying that.
Goran_K says
Yep, I agree. Unfortunately the NRA won't allow ANY laws to be passed that might affect the ability of someone to get a assault rifle--no matter if they are mentally ill, teenaged, whatever. I'm all for a rational discussion of facts, but that's very hard to find because one side desperately wants to avoid it.
Uh no. That's not what people are saying.
I'm not sure to which people you refer, but the posters on here absolutely are saying that.
Goran_K says
You need to have laws that are calibrated to stop the problem WHILE also working to not deny people, who have done nothing wrong, their rights.
Hyperbole on either side is not useful or productive.
Yep, I agree. Unfortunately the NRA won't allow ANY laws to be passed that might affect the ability of someone to get a assault rifle--no matter if they are mentally ill, teenaged, whatever. I'm all for a rational discussion of facts, but that's very hard to find because one side desperately wants to avoid it.
135
anonymous
2018 Feb 20, 7:44pm
HappyGilmore says
Ahhh, the Chuck Schumer talking points. Nice.
HappyGilmore says
Exactly.
Stop watching CNN and you'll learn true facts, not FAKE hyperbole they spew all day long.
Unfortunately the NRA won't allow ANY laws to be passed that might affect the ability of someone to get a assault rifle
Ahhh, the Chuck Schumer talking points. Nice.
HappyGilmore says
I'm all for a rational discussion of facts, but that's very hard to find because one side desperately wants to avoid it.
Exactly.
Stop watching CNN and you'll learn true facts, not FAKE hyperbole they spew all day long.
137
zzyzzx
2018 Feb 21, 9:05am
zzyzzx
2018 Feb 21, 9:05am
I have a challenge to our anti- 2nd amendment people. Post this in your yard:
139
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 21, 9:30am
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 21, 9:30am
Liberals:
"Guns are only for the Militia"
Also Liberals:
"So let's have our Modern Militia be armed with Blackpowder Muskets!"
"Guns are only for the Militia"
Also Liberals:
"So let's have our Modern Militia be armed with Blackpowder Muskets!"
141
Goran_K
2018 Feb 21, 9:48am
Goran_K
2018 Feb 21, 9:48am
TwoScoopsPlissken says
I love it.
Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"
Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"
Liberals:
"Guns are only for the Militia"
Also Liberals:
"So let's have our Modern Militia be armed with Blackpowder Muskets!"
I love it.
Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"
Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"
142
NuttBoxer
2018 Feb 21, 11:32am
NuttBoxer
2018 Feb 21, 11:32am
CajunSteve says
Gonna stop you right there. If truth is allowed to be re-defined every time it doesn't suit the current ruling class, then who gives a fuck what intent was? Just look to the current leadership as god almighty, and bow to their statue daily.
Now that we're past that driveling intelligence of worm-slaves, let me point out that when we fought the most powerful empire in the world, without a standing army, we used the same/or better guns than what the British had. By today's standards that means every citizens should be in possession of an m16. So yes, we're being systematically fucked out of our 2nd amendment right to defend our freedom.
the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.
Gonna stop you right there. If truth is allowed to be re-defined every time it doesn't suit the current ruling class, then who gives a fuck what intent was? Just look to the current leadership as god almighty, and bow to their statue daily.
Now that we're past that driveling intelligence of worm-slaves, let me point out that when we fought the most powerful empire in the world, without a standing army, we used the same/or better guns than what the British had. By today's standards that means every citizens should be in possession of an m16. So yes, we're being systematically fucked out of our 2nd amendment right to defend our freedom.
143
anonymous
2018 Feb 21, 12:35pm
Goran_K says
And more strawman arguments.
Liberals believe neither of those two statements.
I'll help you out-- Trump's authoritarian nature reminds some people of Hitler. Not--Trump is literally Hitler.
And--Trumps needs to enact common sense gun control. Not--Trump needs to take away all of our guns.
Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"
Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"
And more strawman arguments.
Liberals believe neither of those two statements.
I'll help you out-- Trump's authoritarian nature reminds some people of Hitler. Not--Trump is literally Hitler.
And--Trumps needs to enact common sense gun control. Not--Trump needs to take away all of our guns.
144
anonymous
2018 Feb 21, 12:50pm
NuttBoxer says
How do you distinguish between "re-defining" and "determining intent"? One is when you agree and the other is when you don't?
NuttBoxer says
That sure seems like an insult there, but no matter. But, you're hitting on a key point here. The citizens were in a militia. Which is what the 2nd Amendment protects. So strictly interpreting the 2nd Amendment, which is what you seem wont to do, would necessitate any gun owner need be a member of a militia.
Gonna stop you right there. If truth is allowed to be re-defined every time it doesn't suit the current ruling class, then who gives a fuck what intent was?
How do you distinguish between "re-defining" and "determining intent"? One is when you agree and the other is when you don't?
NuttBoxer says
Now that we're past that driveling intelligence of worm-slaves, let me point out that when we fought the most powerful empire in the world, without a standing army, we used the same/or better guns than what the British had. By today's standards that means every citizens should be in possession of an m16. So yes, we're being systematically fucked out of our 2nd amendment right to defend our freedom.
That sure seems like an insult there, but no matter. But, you're hitting on a key point here. The citizens were in a militia. Which is what the 2nd Amendment protects. So strictly interpreting the 2nd Amendment, which is what you seem wont to do, would necessitate any gun owner need be a member of a militia.
145
thenuttyneutron
2018 Feb 21, 1:29pm
thenuttyneutron
2018 Feb 21, 1:29pm
https://www.facebook.com/100007513365065/videos/1993503840910042/
This one made me laugh. A guy cuts the barrel of his AR-15 in half in protest to these rifles being in the hands of civilians. He violated the NFA by creating an illegal SBR (short barrel rifle) on video and then posted it online. Illegal manufacture of a SBR without paying the stamp tax of $200 and getting ATF approval carries a minimum 10 year prison sentence.
This one made me laugh. A guy cuts the barrel of his AR-15 in half in protest to these rifles being in the hands of civilians. He violated the NFA by creating an illegal SBR (short barrel rifle) on video and then posted it online. Illegal manufacture of a SBR without paying the stamp tax of $200 and getting ATF approval carries a minimum 10 year prison sentence.
146
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 21, 1:30pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 21, 1:30pm
Goran_K says
Brilliant! OrangeDouche the Billionaire Real EstateTycoon Tyrant! Who will kill us all! Please take my guns away!
Liberals: "Trump is literally Hitler!"
Also Liberals: "Trump needs to take away all of our guns!"
Brilliant! OrangeDouche the Billionaire Real Estate
147
anonymous
2018 Feb 21, 1:33pm
anon_8f378 says
Please explain what is "common sense gun control"? This punch line, talking point is as bad as saying "ban assault weapons (which don't exist in fact).
anon_8f378 says
Wow, there are no words...
By definition, all American citizens, if not employed by the government, are part of the current militia.
Just wow.
Trumps needs to enact common sense gun control.
Please explain what is "common sense gun control"? This punch line, talking point is as bad as saying "ban assault weapons (which don't exist in fact).
anon_8f378 says
The citizens were in a militia. Which is what the 2nd Amendment protects. So strictly interpreting the 2nd Amendment, which is what you seem wont to do, would necessitate any gun owner need be a member of a militia.
Wow, there are no words...
By definition, all American citizens, if not employed by the government, are part of the current militia.
Just wow.
148
anonymous
2018 Feb 21, 2:09pm
anon_cf6c6 says
I'm sorry--by what definition? What's the name of the militia? Who is in charge of it? When do they meet?
By definition, all American citizens, if not employed by the government, are part of the current militia.
I'm sorry--by what definition? What's the name of the militia? Who is in charge of it? When do they meet?
151
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 3:31pm
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 3:31pm
anon_8f378 says
In theory, when there is a threat to the citizenship by a foreign invader, as a check if a tyrant were to seize power (not just someone you don't agree with), and most recently, in the case of domestic terrorism or insurrection.
I'm sorry--by what definition? What's the name of the militia? Who is in charge of it? When do they meet?
In theory, when there is a threat to the citizenship by a foreign invader, as a check if a tyrant were to seize power (not just someone you don't agree with), and most recently, in the case of domestic terrorism or insurrection.
152
NuttBoxer
2018 Feb 21, 3:40pm
NuttBoxer
2018 Feb 21, 3:40pm
anon_8f378 says
I like to go with the 10th amendment on that one.
anon_8f378 says
Not everyone who fought in The Revolution was in a militia. See my reference to no standing army. And again, "Farmer Brown", had a rifle that rivaled, and more often surpassed, the ones used by the military of England. Compare that to what a citizen can own today.
How do you distinguish between "re-defining" and "determining intent"?
I like to go with the 10th amendment on that one.
anon_8f378 says
The citizens were in a militia
Not everyone who fought in The Revolution was in a militia. See my reference to no standing army. And again, "Farmer Brown", had a rifle that rivaled, and more often surpassed, the ones used by the military of England. Compare that to what a citizen can own today.
153
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 3:41pm
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 3:41pm
There are some arguments that say the state National Guard units are the militia. I believe that the second amendment is simply recognizing a right to self protection. This was not controversial at the time, but the founding fathers were concerned that without gun ownership, citizens could become subjects.
There are too many instances of people thwarting home invasions and robberies to dismiss the need for self protection, even in modern stable times. My mother actually did draw a pistol on a wouldbe burglar when we all lived in Georgia. Lucky for him, the safety gave him a chance to get away. I do think cell phones have helped keep people safe. I see no need for public carrying of rifles, but if it were up to me, everyone who can legally own a gun should be able to carry a small concealed weapon with a stiff penalty for those who do so illegally.
There are too many instances of people thwarting home invasions and robberies to dismiss the need for self protection, even in modern stable times. My mother actually did draw a pistol on a wouldbe burglar when we all lived in Georgia. Lucky for him, the safety gave him a chance to get away. I do think cell phones have helped keep people safe. I see no need for public carrying of rifles, but if it were up to me, everyone who can legally own a gun should be able to carry a small concealed weapon with a stiff penalty for those who do so illegally.
154
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 21, 4:30pm
MisdemeanorRebel
2018 Feb 21, 4:30pm
National Guard is not the militia. The militia can be called to defend the state or territory, and is not subject to deployment overseas.
The National Guard has been deployed overseas, and there was a SCOTUS case in the 80s that ruled against Minnesota (I think) that didn't want to release Guard units for service in Central America - "The Guard isn't the Militia"
The National Guard has been deployed overseas, and there was a SCOTUS case in the 80s that ruled against Minnesota (I think) that didn't want to release Guard units for service in Central America - "The Guard isn't the Militia"
155
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 4:33pm
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 4:33pm
TwoScoopsPlissken says
Thanks for clarifying. It has been used as an argument by anti second amendment people. I will research this, but I like your counterpoint.
"The Guard isn't the Militia"
Thanks for clarifying. It has been used as an argument by anti second amendment people. I will research this, but I like your counterpoint.
156
cynn
2018 Feb 21, 4:41pm
cynn
2018 Feb 21, 4:41pm
Then what is the National Guard? We need a supermagnet that can harvest all the deadly, meaning deadly to people, guns and suck them all up! The deadly to irrelevant people guns, just hide under your bed.
157
ForcedTQ
2018 Feb 21, 4:49pm
The second amendment doesn't guarantee shit. We have a natural right to bear arms of our choosing. What the second amendment does in fact do is limit the government from creating laws about "we the people" bearing arms. It is language, written down, to expressly limit what the federal government could limit. Remember, the federal government is the Union of States, not it's own entity. Talk to a constitutional lawyer about what the meaning is if you want to be enlightened. Also, the "militia" for the security of a "free State", is not talking about our current standing army. You have to think about what perspective they were writing this thing under. It's about the Federal government not taking absolute power over the sovereigns, the people. A militia of the peoples people, not the "Governement's People," essentially anyone willing to take up arms to fight to defend the constitution. That should happen when there is government over-reach, when they take authority over something they have been expressly denied, or has been given to another person/entity.
158
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 4:53pm
Malcolm
2018 Feb 21, 4:53pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)
The militia of the United States, as defined by the U.S. Congress, has changed over time, complicating its meaning.[1]
During colonial America, all able-bodied men of certain ages were eligible for the militia.[2] Individual towns formed local independent militias for their own defense.[3] The year before the US Constitution was ratified, The Federalist Papers detailed the founders' vision of the militia.[4][5] The new Constitution empowered Congress to regulate this national military force,[6] leaving significant control in the hands of each state government.[7][8]
Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:
Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia.[9] (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)
Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia
The militia of the United States, as defined by the U.S. Congress, has changed over time, complicating its meaning.[1]
During colonial America, all able-bodied men of certain ages were eligible for the militia.[2] Individual towns formed local independent militias for their own defense.[3] The year before the US Constitution was ratified, The Federalist Papers detailed the founders' vision of the militia.[4][5] The new Constitution empowered Congress to regulate this national military force,[6] leaving significant control in the hands of each state government.[7][8]
Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:
Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia.[9] (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)
Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Couple things to note in there:
1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.
So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?
In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”
Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.
So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??
Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.