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SJWism is spreading and why it is wrong

By Heraclitusstudent following x   2018 Nov 9, 12:05pm 2,538 views   31 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


I stumble more and more often online on article such as this: https://aeon.co/essays/boudica-how-a-widowed-queen-became-a-rebellious-woman-warrior
On Boudica's revolt:
"Ancient Rome prided itself on the power of its patriarchy, and was quick to condemn women who broke boundaries and encroached upon the rights, privileges and positions of power held by men." [...] "Her story creates a parallel between different views of gender equality held by the Romans and the Britons, and the dichotomies of empire and colony, power and subjugation."

Wow... Here is history rewritten to fit the SJW narrative. Like it wasn't men doing the fighting. Like there was nothing else at stake than women power.... Like her fate was any different than many other male leaders who revolted against Rome. And... let's throw "empires and colony" in the text to push these buttons while we're at it.

This movement started in academics and has been spreading in media. NYT, Vox, of course, but more and more magazines like "Scientific American" are pushing this crap.

And this what is clearly wrong with it:
1 - Every inequality MUST be the result of discrimination. There are no other possible factors.
2 - Anyone that disagree with them MUST be a racist, a white nationalist, a sexist, homophobic. No other options. (tribal thinking)
3 - individuals (skills, efforts, virtues) don't matter. It's all about groups.

These 3 points already cover most of what is wrong. But we can also add:

4 - Code word "equity" replaces "equality": where equity is obtained by a sufficient handicap of some groups - based on groups.
5 - And where "equity" is defined by same results, regardless of all other legitimate factors that would lead to different results.
6 - Claim being victims of the power hierarchy, but they are the power hierarchy: they get people fired, or thrown out of colleges, they shame people. And they apply this power with no respect for people or norms of justice. i.e. more and more THEY ARE THE BULLIES.
7 - Comparisons are always to a few people at the top, never to the millions of white males at the bottom of the "hierarchy".
8 - Faith passing as science: gender study etc... are mostly fact free "science", where authors approve each other "theories" with no empirical facts to back them, in papers that get published and can pass as science.

I think 80% of the population can agree this is crap. Yet it is spreading.
1   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2018 Nov 9, 12:25pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

They'll end up with Bullet holes and I'll be grateful for once the National Guard is doing their damn job.
2   HeadSet   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 9, 12:42pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Faith passing as science: gender study etc... are mostly fact free "science", where authors approve each other "theories" with no empirical facts to back them, in papers that get published and can pass as science.


You do realize that this sentence describes not just "Gender Studies," but "Creation Science" and "AGW." In each case, the adherent can show how "scientists of high regard" form a consensus on why each is true. Science itself consists of hypothesis, observation, and reproduce-able results as a way to ferret out facts. The Gender Studies, Creation Science, and AGW instead use consensus to push a political agenda.
3   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 9, 12:54pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

HeadSet says
You do realize that this sentence describes not just "Gender Studies," but "Creation Science" and "AGW."


I really don't know how AGW ended in this list.
AGW science is based on myriads of hard measures and observations: temperatures on land, ocean surface, atmosphere temperatures at different elevations, past temperatures records based on different sources, past atmosphere compositions, sea ice area, radiations out-going the atmospheres, radiations bounced by the atmosphere, CO2 levels, other greenhouse gas levels, changes in glaciers, water level, ocean levels, whether patterns, vegetation and wild life impacts, etc, etc...
All documented, accumulated, hard empirical evidence, coming from hundreds of different countries, different scientists/universities, different academic fields. And then the quantitative exploitation and analysis of this data based on known laws of physics.

Compare that to the hoax rewrite of ‘Mein Kampf’ as feminist manifesto, that got published, with no data whatsoever.

Compare that to a field like "Critical Whiteness Studies (CWS): a growing field of scholarship whose aim is to reveal the invisible structures that produce and reproduce white supremacy and privilege". The agenda is in the name of the field and its raison d'etre.
4   HEYYOU   ignore (31)   2018 Nov 9, 12:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I got to this part & had to re-read to make sure this wasn't about America.
"a colonial oppressor she viewed as greedy and immoral."


Tenpoundbass says

They'll end up with Bullet holes and I'll be grateful for once the National Guard is doing their damn job.


They have been doing a great job.

"On May 4, l970 members of the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of Kent State University demonstrators, killing four and wounding nine Kent State students."

Fuck everyone in the National Guard. Every member in the U.S. should have gone hunting for the killers of American citizens. Fuck the state of Ohio.

Heraclitusstudent says
Like it wasn't men doing the fighting.


Bet their 5 time draft dodgers didn't fight. Of Course! They are not men!
6   RecentCost   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 9, 4:55pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

It may be spreading and becoming more prevalent in certain liberal circles but most reasonable people are sick of this nonsense.

Just because the dumb people have megaphones doesn't mean reasonable people will accept their "ideas".

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/
7   cmdrda2leak   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 9, 5:31pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

RecentCost says
It may be spreading and becoming more prevalent in certain liberal circles but most reasonable people are sick of this nonsense.

Just because the dumb people have megaphones doesn't mean reasonable people will accept their "ideas".



I agree. In fact, I think we're entering a post-PC era. People I talk to, unless they're totally steeped in the postmodernist / cultural marxism media flow, seem to be reaching a point of at least skepticism when it comes to SJW agitprop.
8   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 9, 5:53pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

@Heraclitusstudent I agree with all 8 points, but what I'm really interested in are effective ways to stop unjust SJWism.

People believe what they feel is in their interest to believe. If they believe they should take your money, for example, it is quite difficult to convince them otherwise. They see the potential reward of their belief, but not the potential reward of questioning that belief. They will find or exaggerate something to justify their belief.

Maybe religion used to be good for getting people to believe in fair dealing, even in dealing with people one is jealous of.

But now SJWism is the dominant religion, and is based entirely on grievance, just like Islam.

How do you answer it? I guess just calmly, sympathetically, but clearly and firmly on the side of fairness rather than just SJW/Islamic hate.
9   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 9, 6:06pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I guess people angry at Trump can fall for this claptrap. And vice versa: People angry at SJWism become Trump fans.
Centrifugal forces of partisanship could tear the social fabric.
But the majority is still at the center. Most people dislike both Trump and SJWs.

The best answer I have seen so far is Jordan Peterson: take a principled stand, and stand your ground. Regardless of consequences.
If they over react, they look like the bullies they are. If they let you stand, they lose.

Be ready to lose your career over it though as we've seen for Damore.
10   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 9, 6:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Yes, Jordan Peterson is a good model. Calm and sympathetic, but clearly and firmly on the side of fairness.
11   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 9, 6:11pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Also keep in mind, people doing this usually think they hold the moral high ground. This is their justification.
This is why when discussing this, it is important to have clear ideas on why this is in fact NOT a moral position: points 1, 2, 3, but an exercise of group think and bullying.
12   marcus   ignore (10)   2018 Nov 9, 6:42pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Yes, Jordan Peterson is a good model


Jordan Peterson is the best right now to have blown up in the main stream, but others will follow. Pragmatists. AS Heraclitusstudent says, something like 80%, cetainly ober 2/3 don't buy the SJW bs.

I don't think it's something to fear. We should welcome SJW talk going mainstream enough to get squashed. There isn't big money behind it.

IF Jordan Peterson, Jonathon Haidt and others have their way, there will be a reckoning at colleges, forcing them to give more attention to moderate and even conservative points of view. JP says he is going to start an online university. It's an interesting idea. I think you ultimately need physical locations for some classes, labs, and especially for exams. But I think his model is going to take off, and others will join in.

They're going to force the cost of college tuition down, and this SJW nonsense is going to help making it possible. A lot of young people are actually turned off by the far left.

I only wish I could be as confident about the far right not going too far. That's where the big money and propaganda are working the hardest. THe left ? They're a bunch of idiots that are their own worst enemy. The assholes on the right are no less stupid, but they have the big backing.
13   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 9, 6:55pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Heraclitusstudent says
And this what is clearly wrong with it:
1 - Every inequality MUST be the result of discrimination. There are no other possible factors.
2 - Anyone that disagree with them MUST be a racist, a white nationalist, a sexist, homophobic. No other options. (tribal thinking)
3 - individuals (skills, efforts, virtues) don't matter. It's all about groups.


Maybe the points made should be exactly counter:

1. Not all inequalities are the result of discrimination. There are many factors.
2. People who can see that there are other factors are not necessarily racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.
3. Individual skill, effort, and values matter a lot. The group you belong to does not matter as much.
14   marcus   ignore (10)   2018 Nov 9, 7:50pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
2 - Anyone that disagree with them MUST be a racist, a white nationalist, a sexist, homophobic. No other options. (tribal thinking)


Right wingers, even on this forum who are so quick to accuse moderate leftists of wanting equal outcomes, accusing us of being socialists or communists, as if its a binary, one extreme or the other choice, are just as frightening, or even far more so, to me, becasue people get so brainwashed about it.

IF I look how far to the right actual policies and government have slipped since REagan and compare that to the negative influence SJWs have had on government, I'm left thinking, there's absolutely no comparison.


What is the residue of SJW politics, in our laws and government so far ? Is it the hertage foundation health care we have ? THe environmental regulations that Trump's been undoing ? Exactly what are the scariest and worst consequences of the OBama ? Restrooms for trannys ?
15   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 9, 10:19pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Marcus, people who want equality of outcomes are not moderate leftists. They are pushing an extremist agenda. And they do not represent the left, but they are a virulent, vociferous part of it.

There is no comparison with the right and what happened since reagan: deregulation, supply side policies... this is basically corporatism and except for Bernie there is not much on the left to oppose it.
The right rarely becomes extreme because when it goes too far it is immediately obvious: they become ultra nationalists and start depriving people from their rights. Until Trump there was no impulse on the right to do that.

In terms of policies, I would mention:
- forced speech in Canada, made famous by Peterson.
- quotas of women in boards in CA.
Just talking of policies make it look more innocuous than it is because they are not in power, but they are organized and spreading and pushing their influence: people are getting fired for wrong think, prevented to speak in public, people are getting de-platformed on the Internet, students are being thrown out of universities without due process. #meToo can be seen as a facet of this. And it is just starting unless people of good will recognize this as bullying and oppose it.

I'm not defending the right. I've been criticizing Trump often enough. But I think SJW should be opposed even by the left, for the reasons I mentioned.
16   marcus   ignore (10)   2018 Nov 9, 10:36pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Heraclitusstudent says
Marcus, people who want equality of outcomes are not moderate leftists. They are pushing an extremist agenda. And they do not represent the left, but they are a virulent, vociferous part of it.


Agreed.

But isn't it convenient that this fear and concern about not wanting equality of outcome, plays so nicely into the hands of those who claim that's what any retributive policy is all about?

"oh you're not going to be happy until we all have the same"

Also, as I said before, I don't think it's virulent at all. As long as so many Americans are working hard, you need not worry about sjw beliefs taking root.

Heraclitusstudent says
But I think SJW should be opposed even by the left, for the reasons I mentioned.


I agree completely.

MY point is there are much worse things to worry about. EVen if SJWs are ended completely, there will always be those without sufficient skills to make a good living, who want to be taken care of by the state. So a bigger worry is how do we progress in a way where the proportion of the population in that situation is not too high ?

And ironically, investing in education and other liberal policies is probably the answer, unless it's going to be something far more cruel or even evil later. Funny that conservatives think only they are aware of the cold hard realities. Btw, Jordan Peterson is one to often allude to these most difficult realities. For example what's to come to the bottom 20% of the intelligence distribution ?

Are they all to become whining right wingers on the dole ?
17   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2018 Nov 9, 10:48pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
MY point is there are much worse things to worry about.


Before Trump I was worrying mostly about the establishment, corporatism, globalization and how it played out, with growing inequalities in advanced countries.

Now there is this insane ideology emerging on the fringe and then its polar opposite. This is not just one side: this is how the interaction of the 2 mean both can grow and derail the center, the country, and more globally western civilization, as other countries are facing the same identity crisis.
This is why this matters.
Maybe I worry too much and both sides will disappear through the same inconsistency that brought them up. But what happens in academia doesn't stay there. It tends to permeate the culture. And these kind of narrative, tribal thinking, etc are just dangerous if pushed through to their consequences.
18   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 10, 9:44am   ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
MY point is there are much worse things to worry about. EVen if SJWs are ended completely, there will always be those without sufficient skills to make a good living, who want to be taken care of by the state


Look, it’s not about whether we take care of such peoples. We do and we have and we will continue to provide them with at least a subsistence style living if they are too incompetent to manage any sort of work. We don’t have much choice as slavery has been abolished and laziness is incurable without deprivation as a goad.

The issue is that SJWs are insisting that the exceptional and the competent be dragged down to the level of the below average and the incompetent so that “equity” may be achieved. This is not a new concept, and in fact is in full effect already in most of the nations of the world. Wanna know why Africa always seems to be terminally poor? Cultural communism is in play. Anyone who displays an ability to produce is set in harness by the ones who can’t or won’t produce anything, with the goad of “supporting the family” or the community. Thus as the best drug back to slavery or mediocrity by the worst. And so they remain forever poor and third world despite having fertile land and many natural resources.
The only thing they produce are cruel and rapacious warlords who throw off the mantle of communism for the cloak of piracy.
19   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 10, 10:18am   ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

In addition, Africa also has by far the greatest levels of genetic and linguistic diversity on earth. People of extremely different origin and culture living right next to each other leads to war. Diversity divides people. Too much diversity is a very bad thing in and of itself.

Africans may all look black to us, but they are really not one group at all. Genetically, humans are best classified at the highest level as white, Asian, and two dozen kinds of black people.

http://www.browndailyherald.com/2012/09/23/econ-study-finds-more-genetic-diversity-does-not-lead-to-success/
America falls near the middle of the genetic diversity distribution – the top of the hump – with African countries being the most diverse and Latin American ones being the least diverse.
The basic reasoning behind the hump-shaped model is that though genetic diversity is important for specialization and innovation, too much diversity has historically led to social instability and a dearth of collaboration.
“Diversity stimulates technological innovation critical for growth, but more diverse countries also have more civil wars,” Galor said. The idea that homogenous societies work more collaboratively is supported by evolutionary biology, he added.
20   CBOEtrader   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 10, 12:17pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

marcus says
What is the residue of SJW politics


University Title 9 Kangaroo courts is kind of a big deal, just for starters.
21   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 10, 12:50pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Heraclitusstudent says
Now there is this insane ideology emerging on the fringe and then its polar opposite. This is not just one side: this is how the interaction of the 2 mean both can grow and derail the center, the country, and more globally western civilization, as other countries are facing the same identity crisis.


Yep. Blowback. It's inevitable with the constant hammering on race and gender that some Whites will adopt it also. It's a testament to western civ that Whites haven't embraced the counter ethnicity to a huge extent

BTW, the record when minorities become the new majority does not bode well for the old majority.
22   marcus   ignore (10)   2018 Nov 10, 1:09pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

CBOEtrader says
University Title 9 Kangaroo courts is kind of a big deal, just for starters


That's an Obama mistake I agree with. ever since hearing Chritina Hoff Summers explain it.
23   Quigley   ignore (0)   2018 Nov 10, 2:37pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
BTW, the record when minorities become the new majority does not bode well for the old majority


More than a dozen years ago, I was going to a club in Long Beach. Bouncer turned me and my date away at the door. “You won’t fit in here.” We were dressed appropriately, but from a peek inside and the line to get in, we were about fifty shades too light.
24   Patrick   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 10, 3:03pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
Bouncer turned me and my date away at the door. “You won’t fit in here.”


Why is it OK to discriminate against white people, but not against black people?
25   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 10, 3:38pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Quigley says
Bouncer turned me and my date away at the door. “You won’t fit in here.”


Why is it OK to discriminate against white people, but not against black people?


It’s been a very long time...early 90’s...but that’s happened to me a couple times as well at clubs/restaurants in Los Angeles
26   CovfefeButDeadly   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 10, 3:40pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Quigley says
Bouncer turned me and my date away at the door. “You won’t fit in here.”


Why is it OK to discriminate against white people, but not against black people?


Honestly Asians can be the worst. Super subtle but they definitely have a way of making people feel unwelcome that aren’t part of the same ethnic background. Black people have it even worse in regards to facing discrimination by Asians.
27   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 10, 3:50pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Why is it OK to discriminate against white people, but not against black people?


Ask the ANC.

Remember when we were told throughout the 80s that Blacks just wanted to be equal, they weren't communists, and everything would be fine if Apartheid just ended?

Those same people are not AWOL on this issue, most actively support the uncompensated land redistribution in South Africa.

Bono being a good example.
28   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2018 Nov 10, 7:34pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Those SJW's think they are cool and unique, they don't realize they are just as fucking stupid and non unique as thousands of other SJW jackasses.

Part of it is PC culture. It became too unpc to tell people that they are stupid. Very dishonest society, encourages idiocy by not pointing it out.
30   HonkpilledMaster   ignore (5)   2018 Nov 12, 12:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Shit testing is very prevalent, it's not just between individual men and women...

31   6rdB   ignore (1)   2018 Nov 12, 12:31pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Patrick says
Why is it OK to discriminate against white people, but not against black people?

As a FUCKING WHITE MALE, you should not even be asking this question. The only question you are allowed to ask is "what can I do to atone for sins of trillions of my ancestors who were slave owners, and even if they were not, can I still feel very guilty?"

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