patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

Folks, Trump is the president and therefore at the end of the day responsible in the eyes of people.

Where were you during the 8 years of Obama, blaming economic issues on Bush, 4 years later?

Hypocrite?

d6rB says

He should now demand immediate e-verify instead of Wall. If he gets it, both sides can claim victory.

The same jokers who are protesting the wall will be even more antagonistic against E-Verify. E-Verify will be called "racist" and "inaccurate" and otherwise not effective. The Dems and some Reps do not want to stop unfettered illegal immigration, as that would curtail votes and low wage labor. Instead they only want methods like "more Border Patrol" and other methods that only look like curtailing illegal immigration, but do little to impede it.

Wall plus E-Verify would be very effective, which is why both will be opposed.

WaltertheoFlanders says

but if it's 80% e-verify and 20% wall, as for effectiveness

Where are you getting these percentages from?
Why can't we have e-verify,a border wall, and border minefield.

zzyzzx says

and border minefield.

um... how about we just dump 20 million baby crocodiles in rio grand, along w those asian carp for food. Bam! sustainable border protection problem solved.

CBOEtrader says

20 million baby crocodiles in rio grand,

Already there:
https://www.abqjournal.com/17491/705am-alligators-found-in-rio-grande.html

More like a month ago.

CBOEtrader says

What is it w the ideologues accusing everyone of dishonesty? Point out the actual dishonesty or stfu, it's just flaming to call everyone a liar w no supporting facts

Impressive reading comprehension there CBOE. OBviosly the sentence you quoted was intended by me to procede where I point out the dishonesty.

But I'm not surprised. You've never showed an ability to comprehend something you choose not to comprehend. Even among xtreme Trump Cuck, and Trump himself, you're the only one that goes so far as to challenge that the Trump lies reported by fact checkers on a daily basis aren't actually lies.

Your argument: "Go ahead and lets discuss one of Trumps lies, if you really believe they are lies ?"

marcus says

OBviosly the sentence you quoted was intended by me to procede where I point out the dishonesty.

But I'm not surprised. You've never showed an ability to comprehend something you choose not to comprehend. Even among xtreme Trump Cuck, and Trump himself, you're the only one that goes so far as to challenge that the Trump lies reported by fact checkers on a daily basis aren't actually lies.

Your argument: "Go ahead and lets discuss one of Trumps lies, if you really believe they are lies ?"

Sounds like you agree w me, considering you STILL havent shown us the lie you are accusing others of.

Yes, please go ahead and point out any lie you think is important and shows dishonesty. Or choose any lie you like.

Many months later, still waiting

marcus says

Patrick says

marcus says

So somehow the fact that congress won't give Trump the first $5.7 of his $30 billion dollar wall, means that democrats are for dissolving the border ?

Yes, actually.

It's very closely analogous to Angela Merkel's deliberate importation of more than a million young men from the mideast and Africa. She, and the Democrats (and most Republican politicians, to be honest) simply want to drive down wages for native citizens, because that's what globalist businesses want. Helps profits to pay workers less, you know.

You will never admit to the dishonesty in this.

@Marcus let's review. You are accusing [X] of dishonesty for [Y].

Please fill in your answer for X and Y, because simply saying something is dishonest is trollish w/o any specifics.

Still waiting...

CBOEtrader says

Many months later, still waiting

I would rather just let the your implication sit, that in a WaPO or NYT list of thousands of Trump lies, that aren't even challenged by normal right wingers, you can't find a single actual significant lie.

To me that speaks volumes.

CBOEtrader says

@Marcus let's review. You are accusing [X] of dishonesty for [Y].

Please fill in your answer for X and Y, because simply saying something is dishonest is trollish w/o any specifics.

Still waiting...

I told you. Read the sentences that followed.

marcus says

How do you square the massive build up in border security and the reduced numbers of incoming illegals, that experts say will be unaffected by the wall ?

It's questioning the intellectual honesty of what Patrick said. Followed by charts soon there after showing how much border security was increased and illegal immigration decreased in the 8 years before Trump.

I trust Patrick understands my point. If you don't, as I said, that doesn't compare to other obvious stuff you deny.

Even TrumpCucks know that the real issue is the hiring of illegal immigrants. Spending $30 billion on a wall ? What for, the symbolism ?

Don't get me wrong, I get it, since Trump runs a tax cut induced $1.2 trillion deficit in what are supposedly the best of growth times, $30 billion for a symbolic wall is just Trump change to you people.

marcus says

marcus says

How do you square the massive build up in border security and the reduced numbers of incoming illegals, that experts say will be unaffected by the wall ?

It's questioning the intellectual honesty of what Patrick said. Followed by charts soon there after showing how much border security was increased and illegal immigration decreased in the 8 years before Trump.

A disagreement is not a lie. Stop misusing the English language.

Also, since you wont concisely communicate you force others to assume. Therefore I assume you disagree w the crises label and do not think a wall is necessary? You then base this on a chart of border arrests per month?

W/o misusing the English language and calling you a liar, I will state the flaws in your logic.

Border arrests are at best a model of actual numbers coming across the border, but fine let's all assume those numbers fluctuate together so there are indeed far fewer illegal border crossings than 15 years ago.

However, are we not already overflowing w children in schools? It is a fact that medicaid, welfare, etc... are being flooded w illegals. Would you agree that schools and other infrastructure do have a breaking point? And to add more illegals into the existing system is quite bad?

Regardless, these costs are perhaps only the 3rd most important reason for a wall.

Drug and human trafficking are #1 and #2.

The wall would help immensely with all 3 problems.

There is also the humanitarian tragedy of these illegals towing innocent children across 110 degree heat so they have a ticket into the US. I agree w Trump that we must be very clear you will never cross the border that way and thus encourage fair, safe immigration.

CBOEtrader says

A disagreement is not a lie

True enough. But my point is that implying that democrats want open borders, when they have been actively promoting massive increases in border security is a lie.

It's also pretty much a lie (or at least extremely questionable) to suggest that a wall will do all that much to decrease incoming illegal immigration from Mexico. OR for that matter that the entire $30 billion or $50 billion wall will ever be built. I know that TRump and his followers don't believe in facts, reasoning or experts, but hey, maybe you could listen to the experts just this once, instead of playing us with these political games like we are all children.

It seems to me that what Trump and his cucks want is to somehow paint democrats as pro open borders and pro illegal immigration. IT simply isn't true. And the fact that democrats don't support a $30 billion dollar wall doesn't prove anything, other than that the obstruction that democrats do is far more pragmatic and sensible than the obstruction republitards did to Obama.

marcus says

and the reduced numbers of incoming illegals, that experts say will be unaffected by the wall ?

That's awesome.

How do you prove the reduced numbers of illegals coming over the border if you don't see them or catch them?

Is that like proving a negative?

Or do they call the border patrol AFTER they get in and go "na, na, na, you didn't catch me"?

marcus says

And the fact that democrats don't support a $30 billion dollar wall doesn't prove anything, other than that the obstruction they do is far more pragmatic and sensible than the obstruction republitards did to Obama.

So tell us, what is the Democrats EXACT border security plan, if a wall/barrier doesn't work (you know the same wall/barrier Pelosi voted FOR in 2013)?

marcus says

in a WaPO or NYT list of thousands of Trump lies,

Is there ONE Trump lie you consider important enough to defend?
Just ONE?

marcus says

But my point is that implying that democrats want open borders, when they have been actively promoting massive increases in border security is a lie.

Ok. Now we're talking.

I see your point. You are probably correct about MOST democrats wanting border security. Some are even for the wall. I do think the anti-wall thing is mostly propaganda considering Bill Clinton and even early Obama wanted walls. That's a besides the current discussion though.

What @Patrick is trying to say here (my Gillete mainsplaining moment): First, there are many, many progressives extremists who are saying walls are immoral. Almost all of EU leadership is force feeding millions of economic migrants into Europe. In Europe being a few progressive tyranniyrranical years ahead of us, some countries have CRIMINALIZED criticism of migrant policy as racism.

Here in the US the propagandists seem to be pushing for the same type of limitations. Our constitution makes criminalization far more difficult (thank GOD) but our extreme leftist regressive culture is trying to find ways around it. They label border security itself as racism. They label anyone who wants the wall as a Nazi. Then they push to deplarform in every way.

So yeah, @patrick could have added some exclusions to his statement, but hes not wrong in his observations.

CBOEtrader says

Ok. Now we're talking.

Why could you not simply interpret that from the post, and the senntences that followed your quote. IT was very clear.

CBOEtrader says

do think the anti-wall thing is mostly propaganda considering Bill Clinton and even early Obama wanted walls.

Wrong, the propaganda is that if you're not for a $30 billion or $50 billion dollar wall you're not for walls. OR worse you're not for border security.

THe truth is that we have been building extensive walls for decades, and congress recently allocated $1.2 billion for repairs and extensions of existing walls.
(I fully expect you and Patrick and all the others spouting the propaganda to ignore this fact as much as possible)

This is politics. The reason Ann Coulter is saying Trump is toast without the wall, is that he promised it, and becasue let's face it, a key part of Trumps base are racists that might not vote for Trump in 2020 if he can't even deliver the wall, or at least fight really hard for it. THe wall is symbolic.

CBOEtrader says

First, there are many, many progressives extremists who are saying walls are immoral

That's politics too. But on the left. They're trolling you guys with that, but also catering to a part of the left wing base that is either not so okay with it, or basically opposed to everything TRump, like the republicans were with Obama. It's what the partisans do these days, although nobody does it like the republicans.

marcus says

a key part of Trumps base are racists

FAR FAR FAR fewer racists for trump than anti-trump. Not even close. You are literally making this up as a fantasy in your head. OR prove me wrong and show me your racism stats. HAHA this could be funny.

marcus says

Wrong, the propaganda is that if you're not for a $30 billion or $50 billion dollar wall you're not for walls. OR worse you're not for border security.

The discussion isnt about YOU. Its about Nanci Pelosi, who could choose to accept Trump's deal. "Walls are immoral" LOL.

Also, how would you interpret this https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/14/rasmussen-most-likely-voters-say-border-wall-not-i/ " By the numbers: 53 percent of likely U.S. voters say it’s better for the country for borders to be tightly controlled. On the flip side, 39 percent say it’s best to have borders nearly like a sieve — to open them “to anyone who wants to come here as long as they are not a terrorist or a criminal,” Rasmussen said. "

39% want borders nearly like a sieve. You think these are Trump supporters or maybe they are the dems?

also FYI “ Support for President Trump’s wall along the U.S.-Mexico border is at an all-time high weeks into a partial government shutdown that began over a border security dispute for funding,” the Washington Examiner reported. “According to the results of an ABC News and Washington Post poll … 42 percent of Americans support a wall. That is up from 34 percent one year ago and a previous high of 37 percent in 2017.” "

CBOEtrader says

FAR FAR FAR fewer racists for trump than anti-trump. Not even close.

Look I would be the first to admit there are different kinds of racism. Anti white racism is very common among non-white minority groups. I'm really not interested in some kind of comparison about numbers or degree. I think I get what you mean.

It should have been obvious (except to you) that I was referring to white racists. You can deny that they are a significant part of Trumps base. Maybe we need a new word other than racist, for people that are overly obsessed with racial issues. But one thing for sure (and this is independent of whether the wall is a good use of those 10s of billions or not), and that is the wall is politically popular with that group. The group that fears the loss of majority status of white people in America.

I don't know, maybe the protestants 150 years ago that feared all the non protestant Irish, Italians, and other Catholic or Orthodox folks coming in to the country were 100% justified and correct in their fears. But they lost, and the population we have now was seeded by working folks that came in when the earlier protestant citizens lost that battle.

IT's stupid Trump politics and it's a waste.


marcus says

THe truth is that we have been building extensive walls for decades, and congress recently allocated $1.2 billion for repairs and extensions of existing walls.
(I fully expect you and Patrick and all the others spouting the propaganda to ignore this fact as much as possible)

marcus says

Maybe we need a new word other than racist, for people that are overly obsessed with racial issues.

The wall is only a racial issue to the anti trumpers.

Vast majority of Trump supporters dont care about race, at all.

marcus says

The group that fears the loss of majority status of white people in America.

Sure. That tiny irrelevant group of tens of racists probably do want the wall.

People like David Duke are only important or relevant to the left. They are outcasts on the right who the left desperately tries to associate...again because the left is completely fixated on race.

Vast majority of Trump supporters dont care at all, and want all the racists to stfu.

CBOEtrader says

So yeah, @patrick could have added some exclusions to his statement, but hes not wrong in his observations.

Sure, there are a variety of opinions on both sides, but by and large, Democrats have been so forgiving of illegal immigration that they give the deep impression that they seek to dissolve the border entirely.

* refusal to even use the correct word "illegal", and deliberately misleading conflation of "immigrant" with "illegal immigrant"
* "sanctuary" laws which prevent federal employees from doing their job
* relentless human interest stories about illegals, absolutely zero stories about poor US citizens harmed by illegal immigration (the press is almost entirely Democrats)
* opposition to the wall

CBOEtrader says

That tiny irrelevant group of tens of racists probably do want the wall.

Lol. That's telling.

marcus says

THe truth is that we have been building extensive walls for decades, and congress recently allocated $1.2 billion for repairs and extensions of existing walls.
(I fully expect you and Patrick and all the others spouting the propaganda to ignore this fact as much as possible)

My error, it was $1.6 Billion.

What happened to the border wall money Congress already gave Trump?
https://qz.com/1516960/trump-speech-tonight-he-hasnt-spent-border-wall-money-he-already-has/

I won't be holding my breath until you guys talk about the degree to which this spoils your dishonest narrative. If democrats are so opposed to border security or so opposed to a wall, how do you explain this ?

marcus says

I won't be holding my breath until you guys talk about the degree to which this spoils your dishonest narrative. If democrats are so opposed to border security or so opposed to a wall, how do you explain this ?

"Walls are immoral". Is Pelosi an outsider or extremist Democrat? Silly me, I thought she was speaker of the house.

CBOEtrader says

"Walls are immoral". Is Pelosi an outsider or extremist Democrat?

Funny really, You will say that literally hundreds of Trump lies in a given month aren't lies, or that they are meaningless chatter, but you want to lock on to this one phrase from Pelosi!!

I don't know, perhaps she's just trolling the morons (no offense).

CONSIDER REALITY. CONGRESS ALLOCATED $1.6 BILLION TO BE SPENT ON FENCE REPAIRS AND EXTENSIONS LAST SPRING. SHUMER AND PELOSI OFFERED AN ADDITIONAL $1.3 BILLION IN DECEMBER !!!!!!!!!

Don't you get it ? Actions speak louder than words !!!!

To say democrats are opposed to border security or that they used to be for walls and are now against wall is world class FOX new style retarded lies !! When I say it's fox news style - I REALLY mean it. Because it's an accepted fact in the reality based world that Fox News has far more influence on policy than any department or cabinet member in the federal government.

marcus says

I don't know, perhaps she's just trolling the morons.

Are you suggesting this is her "total and complete shutdown of muslims entering the US" moment?

Patrick says

Democrats have been so forgiving of illegal immigration that they give the deep impression that they seek to dissolve the border entirely.

This is the new progressives though as opposed to the blue dog dems for example. Trump is basically a blue dog dem. He would have been a D Potus in 1988 for sure

CBOEtrader says

This is the new progressives though as opposed to the blue dog dems for example. Trump is basically a blue dog dem. He would have been a D Potus in 1988 for sure

I don't know what you're talking about.

Ronald Reagan did a massive amnesty for all the illegals in the 80s. GWB was WAYYYY easier on border security and illegal aliens than Obama was.

Do you guys ever take reality in to consideration ?

marcus says

Ronald Reagan did a massive amnesty for all the illegals in the 80s. GWB was WAYYYY easier on border security and illegal aliens than Obama was.

This is contradictory how? This sounds like proof that trump is right and the dems are just brainwashed.

We are literally agreeing on something and somehow you think we are at odds here.

In a closed door meeting, Nancy disrobes in front of Trump, turning him to stone.