patrick.net

Tenpoundbass says

Eman says

Cost is $17.4K after tax incentives.

Incentives should be unconstitutional. Where's my $7,000 check?
Thanks to concepts like these high bar incentives(90% of the population are not in a position to lay out $17K to reap that reward) concepts like "reparations'"
are fair game. If not for this cockamamie, they would have been laughed down and ran out of town.

The incentives are there for everyone unconstitutional or not. Solar can be financed 100% through the solar company’s lender at 2.99%. No money out of pocket. So rather than paying PG&E, we pay the bank. It’s like a fixed mortgage where our electricity cost doesn’t go up every year.

Once the loan is paid off, it’s practically free electricity for the remaining life of the solar, which is guaranteed for 25 years with at least 92% production. 8% degradation in 25 years is not bad at all. This was why I over-designed the solar system by 10% to account for degradation.

Wookie,

Everyone’s situation is different. No one size fits all. In general, I make decisions based on numbers while others make theirs with emotions and/or aesthetics.

I remember having a convo with my former coworkers how 401k contributions won’t be enough to give us a comfortable life when we retire. It’s live less now so we can live less later. My goal is to make more now so we can spend more and save more; then we can live more later. This has set me on the right path to never look back.

I still get together with my former coworkers occasionally. They’re all slaving away while I can drop their annual salary on a car at anytime I want. THIS is the life I have always dreamed, achieved and enjoying now. I love America.

.

from Ten Global Trends

Every Smart Person Should Know by Ronald Bailey and Marian L. Tupy.

The economics and market share of solar energy continue to improve dramatically:
 
"The prices of silicon solar photovoltaic cells will continue their steep exponential decline, according to the New Energy Outlook 2018 report from Bloomberg's New Energy Finance (BNEF) group. According to the BNEF, the average price of silicon photovoltaic (PV) cells fell from $76 per watt in 1977 to $4 per watt in 2008, a drop of nearly 95 percent. Since 2008, the price of PVs has fallen to $0.24 per watt, another drop of nearly 95 percent. That downward trajectory tracks technological improvements in the efficiency of solar cells, as well as increasing economies of scale. With regard to the latter, solar cell prices seem to be following Swanson's law, named for Richard Swanson, the founder of U.S. solar-cell manufacturer Sun Power. Swanson suggests that the cost of PV cells falls by 20 percent with each doubling of global manufacturing capacity. The pattern is a product of constantly improving manufacturing processes: more automation, better quality control, materials reduction, and so forth. As of 2018, BNEF reports that global wind and solar developers had installed their first trillion watts of power-generation capacity, and it projects that the next trillion watts in renewable generation will be completed within the next five years. In 2016, total world electric power-generation capacity stood at 6.2 trillion watts.

A conventional crystalline silicon solar cell (as of 2005). Electrical contacts made from busbars (the larger silver-colored strips) and fingers (the smaller ones) are printed on the silicon wafer.

"As the result of ever-falling costs, the Bloomberg analysts project that by 2050, wind and solar technologies will generate a most 50 percent of total electricity globally, with hydropower, nuclear power, and other renewables pushing total zero-carbon electricity up to 71 percent.

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AD says

As the result of ever-falling costs, the Bloomberg analysts project that by 2050, wind and solar technologies will generate a most 50 percent of total electricity globally,

What a load of shit.

True cost of solar is way higher than just the cells.

That is why states that mandate solar have the highest electricity costs. And why China and India are building coal plants way more than solar.

Stealing with Solar: The Great Net-Metering Heist

How Solar Panels Helped Wealthy Californians Pick The Pockets of Low-Income Families

Affluent households in California siphoned nearly $3.4 billion in 2021 from the pockets of low-income families through a government program called net metering. This program allows people with solar panels to get free electricity while forcing people who can’t afford them to pay all of the costs associated with maintaining the electric grid. What a steal!



https://energybadboys.substack.com/p/stealing-with-solar-the-net-metering

UkraineIsFucked says

Stealing with Solar: The Great Net-Metering Heist

How Solar Panels Helped Wealthy Californians Pick The Pockets of Low-Income Families

Affluent households in California siphoned nearly $3.4 billion in 2021 from the pockets of low-income families through a government program called net metering. This program allows people with solar panels to get free electricity while forcing people who can’t afford them to pay all of the costs associated with maintaining the electric grid. What a steal!



https://energybadboys.substack.com/p/stealing-with-solar-the-net-metering

Well, those Non-Solar Owners voted for this.

UkraineIsFucked says

This program allows people with solar panels to get free electricity while forcing people who can’t afford them to pay all of the costs associated with maintaining the electric grid. What a steal!

"people with solar panels to get free electricity" - not sure which city is getting it.
With or without, the rate is still based on the "rate plan" you choose is about $0.48 in most cities around in Bay Area, CA. With panels, bill get offset from the amount of outflow.

Blue says

"people with solar panels to get free electricity" - not sure which city is getting it.
With or without, the rate is still based on the "rate plan" you choose is about $0.48 in most cities around in Bay Area, CA. With panels, bill get offset from the amount of outflow.

Read the rest of the article.

I have done it in PA. Bought 12 200 watt panels. Hooked them up to ecoflow delta pro 3600 kw . I use it to heat or cool the house. Also as backup unit in case power goes. Independent system so don't have to follow any regulations. I put solar panel in front yard instead of roof.

Unit has limitations, it can accept only 6 panel in series, exploring to put 2 6 panel in parellell.

https://www.earthtechproducts.com/ecoflow-delta-pro-remote-ev-kit.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5fetBhC9ARIsAP1UMgGAefxtBfaXj8CSWP-XU9Kp05xldR2FBWcv947LRsOGvMEXfTsrbogaAvJDEALw_wcB

HeadSet says

Well, those Non-Solar Owners voted for this.

If I recall correctly a few years ago I learned that CA produces so much solar power they can't use it quickly enough so they PAY AZ and NV to take it off of their hands.

Yeah: https://www.marketplace.org/2016/06/09/excess-solar-power-ca-pay-arizona-take-it/

As a result, prices have gone negative, and the Arizona utility is actually being paid to take some of that power from its next-door neighbor.

- might just be AZ who knows.

“Solar panels are a large up-front investment, frequently costing between $10,000 and $20,000 even after lucrative federal subsidies, such as the Investment Tax Credit (ITC), are accounted for. The high cost of these systems creates a substantial barrier to entry for low- and medium-income households who might want to install them on the roofs of their homes.”

This is not correct based on my personal experience. The solar system can be financed 100%. $0 out of pocket. The monthly payments are less than the cost of electricity. It’s about half once we factored in the 30% tax credit.

This was why I said it makes financial sense for me. It’s like buying a house with 0% down. Your monthly payments are less than rent. Your monthly payments never go up. You also get the tax write-offs/deductions. In a decade or so, you own it free and clear. No more payments except the daily servicing fee of 37.6 cents/day, which will likely go up every year like property taxes.

NEM 2.0 was a gift. Sell electricity back to PG&E at retail prices during day time. That’s 56 cents/kWh during peak and 48 cents partial peak while buying it back at night for 27.2 cents.

With NEM 3.0, it’s 8 cents/kWh credit so powerwalls are a must, which makes less financial sense.

HeadSet says

UkraineIsFucked says

Stealing with Solar: The Great Net-Metering Heist

How Solar Panels Helped Wealthy Californians Pick The Pockets of Low-Income Families

Affluent households in California siphoned nearly $3.4 billion in 2021 from the pockets of low-income families through a government program called net metering. This program allows people with solar panels to get free electricity while forcing people who can’t afford them to pay all of the costs associated with maintaining the electric grid. What a steal!



https://energybadboys.substack.com/p/stealing-with-solar-the-net-metering

Well, those Non-Solar Owners voted for this.

I don’t believe the non-solar owners voted for it. California Public Utilities Commission is the one who voted for it.

Eman says

NEM 2.0 was a gift. Sell electricity back to PG&E at retail prices during day time. That’s 56 cents/kWh during peak and 48 cents partial peak while buying it back at night for 27.2 cents.

With NEM 3.0, it’s 8 cents/kWh credit so powerwalls are a must, which makes less financial sense.

Yup. Eventually, there will be NEM nothing. Just like for electric cars not paying their freight on the roads.

2023 set another record for EV sales in the United States. About 1.2 million vehicles, or 7.6% of all sales, were electric according to Kelley Blue Book.

Through November 2023 (the latest data available from the Energy Information Administration), electricity generation was down by 1.1%.

How is this possible? One word — efficiency. The magic of efficiency could and hopefully will continue this 20-year miracle of keeping electricity consumption flat even while we add lots of new loads, as there is so much more low hanging fruit to be picked. LEDs still need to finish their market domination, and heat pumps are only just getting started and will save oodles of energy for space and water heating and even clothes drying. Building codes are continuously improving, as are appliance standards, meaning our homes and buildings and everything that uses energy in them, are constantly becoming more efficient (with no compromise in performance).

This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.

How’s that for some good news? 🤔

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/02/the-us-added-1-2-million-evs-to-the-grid-last-year-electricity-use-went-down/

Eman says

This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.

How’s that for some good news? 🤔

It's EV Fluffing Bullshit, is what it is.

Tell that to the folks in California..where the bulk of EVs are sold. Electricity prices keep going up and up and up.

Oh, and it still doesn't address how EV drivers don't pay their freight by not paying gas taxes.

just_passing_through says

Yeah: https://www.marketplace.org/2016/06/09/excess-solar-power-ca-pay-arizona-take-it/

As a result, prices have gone negative, and the Arizona utility is actually being paid to take some of that power from its next-door neighbor.

- might just be AZ who knows.

Good stuff. Too bad it doesn’t fit the narrative. Moving on. 😂

Eman says

Good stuff. Too bad it doesn’t fit the narrative. Moving on.

Can't fluff so you're all for 'Moving on'.

Eman says

This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.

Did not California recently tell citizens to stop charging electric cars because of the load on the system during a heat wave?

HeadSet says

Eman says

This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.

Did not California recently tell citizens to stop charging electric cars because of the load on the system during a heat wave?

Did they? Was it during peak hours, or all hours? I’ve seen rolling blackouts. It wasn’t bad, but I still don’t want any part of it.

A spokeswoman for the governor, Erin Mellon, said that the request to avoid charging electrical vehicles has been misrepresented by critics of California’s efforts to curb emissions.

“We’re not saying don’t charge them,” she said. “We’re just saying don’t charge them between 4 p.m. and 9 p.m.”

- Based on my experience, no one charges at home during peak hours. We plug it in and have it programmed to charge after 12am. It’s just common sense to EV drivers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/us/california-heat-wave-flex-alert-ac-ev-charging.html

Eman says

How is this possible? One word — efficiency. The magic of efficiency could and hopefully will continue this 20-year miracle of keeping electricity consumption flat even while we add lots of new loads, as there is so much more low hanging fruit to be picked. LEDs still need to finish their market domination, and heat pumps are only just getting started and will save oodles of energy for space and water heating and even clothes drying.

Heat pumps aren't replacing electric heating, they are replacing natural gas heating. LEDs are no more efficient than CFLs, but they are cheaper to manufacture and don't contain mercury. We are nearing peak efficiency now. The article you are quoting from is from some gas bag that doesn't know anything about engineering.

HeadSet says

Did not California recently tell citizens to stop charging electric cars because of the load on the system during a heat wave?

Stop pissing all over Eman's Fluff Fest, @HeadSet.

It is bad for Woke World's bullshit.

Eman says

Did they? Was it during peak hours, or all hours?

Doesn't matter. Having to cut back at all destroys the thesis that "efficiency" of light bulbs and some appliances has cleared enough demand that EVs will have no impact on the grid.

Eman says

We’re not saying don’t charge them,” she said. “We’re just saying don’t charge them between 4 p.m. and 9 p.m.”

Oh boy. The bullshit keeps getting better and better.

Eman says

- Based on my experience, no one charges at home during peak hours. We plug it in and have it programmed to charge after 12am. It’s just common sense to EV drivers.

Gaslighting

Eman says

- Based on my experience, no one charges at home during peak hours. We plug it in and have it programmed to charge after 12am. It’s just common sense to EV drivers.

Lol dude. I gas my massive SUV up anytime I want in 4-5 minutes that was $20-30k cheaper than your tiny Tesla. I have 5-7 years of gas built into my car based on purchase price. And it has 10x's the functionality of a Tesla. Time is money dude. EV owners clearly don't value their time. They like their golf cart that's faster than a Ferrari, which is of no use if you follow the rules of the road and aren't an ass hole.

Everything I just said is fact. You overpaid for a car. Just own it. My better car is cheaper. I know the size of my dick. I don't need some car that does zero to 60 in 2.3 seconds. I need a productive car. Not a status symbol.

Someone in Canada is making/saving money with solar. What are your thoughts on solar @EBGuy and @Hircus? Seems like you guys have solar way before I did.



https://x.com/brucethemodel3/status/1760000414777520611?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Eman says

Someone in Canada is making/saving money with solar. What are your thoughts on solar EBGuy and Hircus? Seems like you guys have solar way before I did.

Yes... lol. During June-August at best. There's also no way a North facing roof in Alberta would get you net zero even in the summer. You guys buy a lot of bull shit. Your best bet is to drop $4k on a nat gas whole home generator north of I-80 if not further south. Back up power is better than solar.

The propaganda and sales are ridiculous. Solar doesn't work north of a certain latitude without shoveling money over to liars. The ROI is shit in 90% of the country let alone Canada.

WookieMan says

Eman says

Someone in Canada is making/saving money with solar. What are your thoughts on solar EBGuy and Hircus? Seems like you guys have solar way before I did.

Yes... lol. During June-August at best. There's also no way a North facing roof in Alberta would get you net zero even in the summer. You guys buy a lot of bull shit. Your best bet is to drop $4k on a nat gas whole home generator north of I-80 if not further south. Back up power is better than solar.

The propaganda and sales are ridiculous. Solar doesn't work north of a certain latitude without shoveling money over to liars. The ROI is shit in 90% of the country let alone Canada.

This is so typical of you. You jump to the conclusion without reading the whole post. How something doesn’t make sense based on you. You don’t live there, but you know better than the person who lives there.

Take a look at how his solar is mounted to give it 6% south facing exposure. He said he gets over 90% production between March-October, not what you claimed. I’m sure people who live there would call BS if the numbers don’t add up.

Eman says

Take a look at how his solar is mounted to give it 6% south facing exposure. He said he gets over 90% production between March-October, not what you claimed. I’m sure people who live there would call BS if the numbers don’t add up.

I have family members that live up there my friend. I'm not making a damn thing up. Solar doesn't even give you full power in IL, especially a north facing roof. I don't just make shit up or believe what is on the internet. I go off of what I actually know.

Also, his claim is true and what I actually know isn't? CA, AZ, NM, CO, TX, etc are all prime candidates for solar. It simply doesn't work above a certain latitude. The facts are out there. It's too dark 60-70% of the year north of I-80 or I-90 to the west to justify the cost. There's simple not enough sunlight outside of 2-3 months at best and not on a north facing roof.

Believe what a random posts about. Doesn't mean it's right.

Also your house looks ugly as fuck and you'd look like a gay in my part of the world. Sloped north side panels.... that's retarded.

Wow, Alberta has more sunny days than San Jose. I didn’t know this.

Eman says

Wow, Alberta has more sunny days than San Jose. I didn’t know this.

Sunny doesn't equate to power September to April in Canada. Sure you'll get some I suppose, but not even close to net zero without a yard full of panels. Roof won't do shit up there. Summer maybe. Then factor in snow on the panels.

I was just in Montana. No sun rise until 8am that would generate any power and too dark by 3-4pm to generate power. That's about 40% of the year there. Now go another 300 miles north. Have you been north in the winter? You make a lot of assumptions about everywhere else based on CA and websites. Go there. Solar doesn't work without a ton of panels north of a certain latitude for the cost. Can you do it? Sure. Waste of money that could be better invested that could easily pay for your gas and electric on the dividends/interest/growth saved by not putting solar on your roof.

Eman says

Take a look at how his solar is mounted to give it 6% south facing exposure. He said he gets over 90% production between March-October, not what you claimed. I’m sure people who live there would call BS if the numbers don’t add up.

The numbers DON'T add up. How could they be selling electricity at 3x the rate? The only answer is they are being subsidized, because somebody is paying for that power, and it's not a consumer, because THEY aren't paying 3x "the rate".

This is the problem with economic repression and centralization. They are trying to get people to buy solar by giving them a carrot, and the stick is being taken to anybody that doesn't engage in this fraud, through taxation.

richwicks says

Eman says

Take a look at how his solar is mounted to give it 6% south facing exposure. He said he gets over 90% production between March-October, not what you claimed. I’m sure people who live there would call BS if the numbers don’t add up.

The numbers DON'T add up. How could they be selling electricity at 3x the rate? The only answer is they are being subsidized, because somebody is paying for that power, and it's not a consumer, because THEY aren't paying 3x "the rate".

Eman is a solar homo. You can cherry pick from your location all you want and try to extrapolate it somewhere else. The globe is a sphere. A good majority of it get 5-7 hours of light six months of the year. Including Canada. That's a waste of money without making your yard look like shit with panels and getting a ton of them.

The cost of solar is continuing to go down, as expected. Its no different than any new technology such as look at how automobiles were only affordable for the rich back in 1910. Look at the price of an HDTV back in 2003 or the price of a desktop computer in 1986.

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AD says

The cost of solar is continuing to go down, as expected. Its no different than any new technology such as look at how automobiles were only affordable for the rich back in 1910. Look at the price of an HDTV back in 2003 or the price of a desktop computer in 1986.

Different tech. Computers work in everyone's home. EV's are not nearly as efficient as what they draw from cold weather climates. 50%+ of the country, 50% of the year. That's not "sustainable."

TV's are a nothing burger. Younger demographics don't watch it. Demand goes down and there's more inventory. No one wants them or uses them. I have 10. We actively use 4 in a family of 5 and 3 are for gaming for the kids. Television is dead. The price mean nothing because there's no demand. Been that way for a decade, at least.

You can still get depreciated used cars for massively cheap. No one should ever buy a new car. Throwing the dart, especially an EV.

WookieMan says

Different tech.

Yes different tech, but like all tech, there are innovation gains which drive down price. Look at how the price per kw-hr has steadily decreased for solar energy. I agree with Eman that solar energy's affordability is increasing.

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