Ya'll remember when Jerry Sienfeld told Apu, that he should make his native Pakistani food at his restaurant, then he did and know one came?
invite response
2023 Dec 12, 5:40pm 1,594 views 50 comments
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11
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 1:15pm
Tenpoundbass says
I only charge for 6 hours/night adding 132 miles per evening to take advantage of the cheap electricity rate. Over 99% of my charging is at home and you try to keep the battery between 20-80% full for normal everyday driving. You never drain the battery down to zero or charge to 100% unless you are on a road trip.
So that works out to be about 2-3 charge sessions at home each week.
Couldn't be easier or cheaper!
If what you said was accurate, then your 1000 miles a month could be accomplished with only 3 1/2 full charges.
You should be getting 26 days of driving out of 3 days of charging.
I only charge for 6 hours/night adding 132 miles per evening to take advantage of the cheap electricity rate. Over 99% of my charging is at home and you try to keep the battery between 20-80% full for normal everyday driving. You never drain the battery down to zero or charge to 100% unless you are on a road trip.
So that works out to be about 2-3 charge sessions at home each week.
Couldn't be easier or cheaper!
12
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 13, 1:36pm
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 13, 1:36pm
The insurance rates on these Tesla things are outrageous though. Literally 2x of a similarly-priced new car.
13
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 2:15pm
Eric Holder says
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Rates will come down eventually as the data continues to prove out that Teslas are safer and more reliable then virtually every other car on the road. We are still in the early adopter phase, but more and more data is coming in every day as well as more 3rd party repair shops.
I also get savings on no oil changes, no brake jobs or pad replacements, no transmission maintenance, no fuel or oil filter replacements, little need for tire rotation with Tesla's AWD and amazing traction control.
I totally get why people don't want the government mandating or forcing EV's on people (especially non-Teslas) - but these cars are truly a wonder.
The insurance rates on these Tesla things are outrageous though. Literally 2x of a similarly-priced new car.
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Rates will come down eventually as the data continues to prove out that Teslas are safer and more reliable then virtually every other car on the road. We are still in the early adopter phase, but more and more data is coming in every day as well as more 3rd party repair shops.
I also get savings on no oil changes, no brake jobs or pad replacements, no transmission maintenance, no fuel or oil filter replacements, little need for tire rotation with Tesla's AWD and amazing traction control.
I totally get why people don't want the government mandating or forcing EV's on people (especially non-Teslas) - but these cars are truly a wonder.
14
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:33pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:33pm
Some folks like pork chops, and some folks like ham hocks and others like vegetable soup.
Can't you just enjoy your EV car, while you're in your zone of your EV Nirvana?
Every time I find a niche that I enjoy, over popularizing, or making it the sole source beating out all other competing options. Usually destroys absolutely every single last benefit I found myself in, when I first discovered that niche?
As optimistic you are about EVs there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are adamant, that will never adopt with no shortage of reasons for thinking so. People genuinely loath them, I don't think it's because they feel they are superior. But because they are being foisted upon them by people who have zero respect for other people's desires, wants and needs. If they do away with ICE cars, people will find away to convert their engines or make engines that can and will run on everything from Yard Waste to timber poached from National Forests, used cooking oil, any cheap readily available chemical they can find,, or anything combustible. It will set the emissions standards of ICE cars back by a century. Nefarious people can not nor will not bend the will of those that need their needs provided for. They will not sit back and watch the rich folks zip around in their subsidized electric cars while they wait on exploding busses to get around, that may run out of battery on the way to work.
You love EVs Elon is making some nice cars with a decent price point. Right now Elon's EVs are at the same point that Computers were when the EMachines were cheap. It put a computer in every home, and created the tech price wars after the tech crash. But you noticed after everyone was on board, computers went back to being expensive, unless you bought a Chrome Book or the stripped down Windows machine running on Intel Atom. They became a joke compared to what computers were, when they were trying to put one in every household.
Just wait and see what Tesla starts churning out and for what price when the subsidies stop, Elon is ousted as CEO, or Tesla is taken over or bought out.
That quality and price point ratio will go out the window.
So be careful what you wish for, it wont be as cool as it sounds in your head.
Can't you just enjoy your EV car, while you're in your zone of your EV Nirvana?
Every time I find a niche that I enjoy, over popularizing, or making it the sole source beating out all other competing options. Usually destroys absolutely every single last benefit I found myself in, when I first discovered that niche?
As optimistic you are about EVs there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are adamant, that will never adopt with no shortage of reasons for thinking so. People genuinely loath them, I don't think it's because they feel they are superior. But because they are being foisted upon them by people who have zero respect for other people's desires, wants and needs. If they do away with ICE cars, people will find away to convert their engines or make engines that can and will run on everything from Yard Waste to timber poached from National Forests, used cooking oil, any cheap readily available chemical they can find,, or anything combustible. It will set the emissions standards of ICE cars back by a century. Nefarious people can not nor will not bend the will of those that need their needs provided for. They will not sit back and watch the rich folks zip around in their subsidized electric cars while they wait on exploding busses to get around, that may run out of battery on the way to work.
You love EVs Elon is making some nice cars with a decent price point. Right now Elon's EVs are at the same point that Computers were when the EMachines were cheap. It put a computer in every home, and created the tech price wars after the tech crash. But you noticed after everyone was on board, computers went back to being expensive, unless you bought a Chrome Book or the stripped down Windows machine running on Intel Atom. They became a joke compared to what computers were, when they were trying to put one in every household.
Just wait and see what Tesla starts churning out and for what price when the subsidies stop, Elon is ousted as CEO, or Tesla is taken over or bought out.
That quality and price point ratio will go out the window.
So be careful what you wish for, it wont be as cool as it sounds in your head.
15
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:42pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:42pm
How will the eco police in their EVs give chase to the ICE outlaws in their hulking 4x4 with an LS 650 engine when they go off road?
ICE cars can't go over rough terrain without much ill effect, as long as their suspension holds up. EVs car frame is a battery array, to much flexing will cause them to explode. I suspect that is the number one reason cars and busses catch fire, because they jumped a curb or something made their car flex to the point something shorted out. I don't think it's because of faulty wiring or defective parts.
ICE cars can't go over rough terrain without much ill effect, as long as their suspension holds up. EVs car frame is a battery array, to much flexing will cause them to explode. I suspect that is the number one reason cars and busses catch fire, because they jumped a curb or something made their car flex to the point something shorted out. I don't think it's because of faulty wiring or defective parts.
16
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 13, 3:24pm
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 13, 3:24pm
socal2 says
What savings? I rented Teslas and Camry hybrids from Hertz and purely fuel cost for hybrids was $0.13 per mile while Teslas were $0.16. Yes, I charged it at siperchargers (because fucking Hertz doesn't include cables with their rentals) but the late evening rate was similar to one I pay at home: $0.33-0.35 per kWh vs $0.32-0.36, iirc.
Eric Holder says
The insurance rates on these Tesla things are outrageous though. Literally 2x of a similarly-priced new car.
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
What savings? I rented Teslas and Camry hybrids from Hertz and purely fuel cost for hybrids was $0.13 per mile while Teslas were $0.16. Yes, I charged it at siperchargers (because fucking Hertz doesn't include cables with their rentals) but the late evening rate was similar to one I pay at home: $0.33-0.35 per kWh vs $0.32-0.36, iirc.
17
Ceffer
2023 Dec 13, 7:19pm
Ceffer
2023 Dec 13, 7:19pm
Not to mention even if you get into a minor accident in an EV, you have to replace the battery, which often costs more than the car is worth. They are excellent remote controlled triggered bombs, though. More on designed to fail green technology.
18
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 7:41pm
RWSGFY says
My SDGE EV plan is $.15 kWh 12:00-6:00AM and 12:00AM-2:00PM on the weekends. Believe that works out to about $.04/mile for me.
Regardless of the cost of ownership savings, I will never be able to give up regenerative braking and one pedal driving you get with Teslas and EVs. I live in a hilly area and have lots of fun roads to drive fast and build up speed. I can't stand driving my wife's Hyundai Santa Fe grinding on the friction brakes if I hit the traffic light wrong on the big hill out of my neighborhood.
Driving ICE cars feels so primitive to me now.
What savings? I rented Teslas and Camry hybrids from Hertz and purely fuel cost for hybrids was $0.13 per mile while Teslas were $0.16. Yes, I charged it at siperchargers (because fucking Hertz doesn't include cables with their rentals) but the late evening rate was similar to one I pay at home: $0.33-0.35 per kWh vs $0.32-0.36, iirc.
My SDGE EV plan is $.15 kWh 12:00-6:00AM and 12:00AM-2:00PM on the weekends. Believe that works out to about $.04/mile for me.
Regardless of the cost of ownership savings, I will never be able to give up regenerative braking and one pedal driving you get with Teslas and EVs. I live in a hilly area and have lots of fun roads to drive fast and build up speed. I can't stand driving my wife's Hyundai Santa Fe grinding on the friction brakes if I hit the traffic light wrong on the big hill out of my neighborhood.
Driving ICE cars feels so primitive to me now.
19
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 7:52pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 7:52pm
https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2023/12/13/bidens-green-energy-flop-ford-cuts-electric-truck-production-in-half-over-lack-of-demand/
The point of this thread was not the EV's virtues, but the fact people are flat out rejecting them. Ford EV Trucks and Cars are sitting on the lot unsold. So now Ford is cutting back on production of them.
There will be no natural adopting, and I don't think you can force people to accept them when the physics isn't even there to make your case.
You early adopters are it. Either people will embrace them or they wont. But it wont be the universal must have they were made out to be.
The point of this thread was not the EV's virtues, but the fact people are flat out rejecting them. Ford EV Trucks and Cars are sitting on the lot unsold. So now Ford is cutting back on production of them.
There will be no natural adopting, and I don't think you can force people to accept them when the physics isn't even there to make your case.
You early adopters are it. Either people will embrace them or they wont. But it wont be the universal must have they were made out to be.
20
Eman
2023 Dec 13, 7:57pm
Eman
2023 Dec 13, 7:57pm
Tenpoundbass says
Ford can’t sell their EVs in volume because their EVs are inferior and overpriced. The worst part is that they have no charging infrastructure for their customers. Then look at all other OEM car manufacturers, same problem.
https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2023/12/13/bidens-green-energy-flop-ford-cuts-electric-truck-production-in-half-over-lack-of-demand/
The point of this thread was not the EV's virtues, but the fact people are flat out rejecting them. Ford EV Trucks and Cars are sitting on the lot unsold. So now Ford is cutting back on production of them.
There will be no natural adopting, and I don't think you can force people to accept them when the physics isn't even there to make your case.
You early adopters are it. Either people will embrace them or they wont. But it wont be the universal must have they were made out to be.
Ford can’t sell their EVs in volume because their EVs are inferior and overpriced. The worst part is that they have no charging infrastructure for their customers. Then look at all other OEM car manufacturers, same problem.
21
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 8:12pm
Eman says
This. Many of the major OEM's are screwed and will be gone within 10 years.
Meanwhile, Tesla can't build cars fast enough to meet their sky high demand and are making industry leading profits. This demand all generated without a lick of advertising. Just word of mouth by obnoxious fanboys like me. Wait until Cybertrucks are spotted all over the roads.
Ford can’t sell their EVs in volume because their EVs are inferior and overpriced.
This. Many of the major OEM's are screwed and will be gone within 10 years.
Meanwhile, Tesla can't build cars fast enough to meet their sky high demand and are making industry leading profits. This demand all generated without a lick of advertising. Just word of mouth by obnoxious fanboys like me. Wait until Cybertrucks are spotted all over the roads.
22
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:18am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:18am
socal2 says
Enjoy it now. You're naive to think it will last for long. They will charge higher rates for EV owners at some point. It's coming. We don't have the grid and they can't go to non-EV owners to cover your bill. Electric will be more expensive than gas for EV's and probably in the near future.
Fun to drive, but that will be it probably in 2-4 years when your utility will charge you X% more because of a vehicle is registered to your home. Also I can get a car way cheaper than a Model 3 that can do 50mpg+ used. https://www.carmax.com/car/25039524 Just one example. $15k in my pocket out the gate or half the car payment if you get a loan. NEVER buy new cars either. I can make more on the $15k saved than the difference of gas vs EV.
The cost of a car isn't about fuel or electric as a decision. Your decision is ultimately that it's fun to drive. It 100% won't be cheaper to drive even now or in the near future with ALL costs included.
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Enjoy it now. You're naive to think it will last for long. They will charge higher rates for EV owners at some point. It's coming. We don't have the grid and they can't go to non-EV owners to cover your bill. Electric will be more expensive than gas for EV's and probably in the near future.
Fun to drive, but that will be it probably in 2-4 years when your utility will charge you X% more because of a vehicle is registered to your home. Also I can get a car way cheaper than a Model 3 that can do 50mpg+ used. https://www.carmax.com/car/25039524 Just one example. $15k in my pocket out the gate or half the car payment if you get a loan. NEVER buy new cars either. I can make more on the $15k saved than the difference of gas vs EV.
The cost of a car isn't about fuel or electric as a decision. Your decision is ultimately that it's fun to drive. It 100% won't be cheaper to drive even now or in the near future with ALL costs included.
23
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 14, 7:39am
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 14, 7:39am
Utilities now offer EV plans that charge less per kWh, not more. How much less - IDK.
24
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:45am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:45am
RWSGFY says
"Now" being the key word. Double the charing as more hit the road. We're taking nukes off line and coal. Our power grid doesn't have the capacity to charge these cars. The cost of oil refining and production is set as far as electric needs. You can't just add 1-2M oversized golf carts to the grid. Someone has to pay for that. Rates spikes are coming for EV owners. Call me out if I'm wrong. I give it 2-4 years. Unfortunately I think it will be passed on to everyone, but ultimately the cost will be more than gas.
Utilities now offer EV plans that charge less per kWh, not more. How much less - IDK.
"Now" being the key word. Double the charing as more hit the road. We're taking nukes off line and coal. Our power grid doesn't have the capacity to charge these cars. The cost of oil refining and production is set as far as electric needs. You can't just add 1-2M oversized golf carts to the grid. Someone has to pay for that. Rates spikes are coming for EV owners. Call me out if I'm wrong. I give it 2-4 years. Unfortunately I think it will be passed on to everyone, but ultimately the cost will be more than gas.
25
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:04am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:04am
socal2 says
Yeah, wait is right. And you still can’t get the top of the line model one delivered anyway, only the junk base model and even then probably take over a year to get it if you ordered today. I wanted a fully decked out cyber truck in 2020 before inflation caused all the prices to skyrocket. But reality was not kind to this idea. And now the competition is putting out comparable e-Trucks that you can actually buy today or at least in 2024.
The cyber truck looks cool, but it’s vapor ware. And if you could buy one it would be a waste of money. A regular gas powered f-150 or Silverado would be much less expensive to own over the next 10-15 years. Plus the ICE F-150 will be 10x more likely to be still on the road 200,000 miles or 20 years later, especially in the cold weather.
Your fun little electro mobile might be great for commuting in sunny Southern CA but the older and colder it gets, the less desirable it would be to the people I know who are usually 30-60 minute commuters when the weather is nice and like to pull boats, RV’s and go on longer road trips.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/29/23979850/tesla-cybertruck-delivery-design-production-problems-delay
Wait until Cybertrucks are spotted all over the roads.
Yeah, wait is right. And you still can’t get the top of the line model one delivered anyway, only the junk base model and even then probably take over a year to get it if you ordered today. I wanted a fully decked out cyber truck in 2020 before inflation caused all the prices to skyrocket. But reality was not kind to this idea. And now the competition is putting out comparable e-Trucks that you can actually buy today or at least in 2024.
The cyber truck looks cool, but it’s vapor ware. And if you could buy one it would be a waste of money. A regular gas powered f-150 or Silverado would be much less expensive to own over the next 10-15 years. Plus the ICE F-150 will be 10x more likely to be still on the road 200,000 miles or 20 years later, especially in the cold weather.
Your fun little electro mobile might be great for commuting in sunny Southern CA but the older and colder it gets, the less desirable it would be to the people I know who are usually 30-60 minute commuters when the weather is nice and like to pull boats, RV’s and go on longer road trips.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/29/23979850/tesla-cybertruck-delivery-design-production-problems-delay
26
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:08am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:08am
WookieMan says
It already is, the governments are talking of taxing EV by mileage because they can’t tax the gas but they still wear out the roads. Tires wear out faster due to high rates of acceleration. Plus upfront cost is way more than just buying a nice used vehicle that meets your needs and runs on gasoline. Plus using a used vehicle is the ultimate in recycling, preventing another car from going to the junkyard.
ultimately the cost will be more than gas.
It already is, the governments are talking of taxing EV by mileage because they can’t tax the gas but they still wear out the roads. Tires wear out faster due to high rates of acceleration. Plus upfront cost is way more than just buying a nice used vehicle that meets your needs and runs on gasoline. Plus using a used vehicle is the ultimate in recycling, preventing another car from going to the junkyard.
27
AD
2023 Dec 14, 11:55am
AD
2023 Dec 14, 11:55am
Tenpoundbass says
I looked into the Chevy EV Bolt which is a low price MSRP of around $28,000 before any state and federal tax credit.
It can charge on a 110 Volt outlet but it only charges about 4 miles per hour.
Seems like its OK for a commuter and local travel car. I think its average range is around 270 miles. It has an 8 yr , 100,000 mile warranty on its batteries.
The slow charge rate is risk mitigation as far as allowing Chevy to warranty up to 100,000 miles, and assume about 13,000 miles per year.
.
And the fact that people realize they have to spend 20 to 40 thousand dollar just to install an EV charger at their home, is a real buzzkill.
I looked into the Chevy EV Bolt which is a low price MSRP of around $28,000 before any state and federal tax credit.
It can charge on a 110 Volt outlet but it only charges about 4 miles per hour.
Seems like its OK for a commuter and local travel car. I think its average range is around 270 miles. It has an 8 yr , 100,000 mile warranty on its batteries.
The slow charge rate is risk mitigation as far as allowing Chevy to warranty up to 100,000 miles, and assume about 13,000 miles per year.
.
28
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:30pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:30pm
PeopleUnited says
Factor in there will be no used EV car market either. Battery is near the end of life, ain't nobody touching it. Nobody would be able to junk it. It's worth nothing altogether.
I don't mind Elon and the idea, but it's not sustainable long term. It's math. He knows it. He can borrow upwards of 80% of his shares value tax free and owe nothing if it goes to zero. He can use the borrowed money to pay the loan back and whatever else he wants to buy.
People need to understand how rich people live. They don't "make" money. Musk gives no shits about the environment. None. His cars are worse for the environment. Again as a Monday morning quarterback I actually don't dislike the guy, but I know what he's doing. Make an average looking golf cart, get government subsidies, go public, borrow against his shares and run. The guy can borrow $1B and pay his debt service fee/interest for life and still be left with billions. He's not bad for this, but this is what he's doing. He lies when he says he pays income taxes. That would be fucking stupid for someone in his position.
Plus using a used vehicle is the ultimate in recycling, preventing another car from going to the junkyard.
Factor in there will be no used EV car market either. Battery is near the end of life, ain't nobody touching it. Nobody would be able to junk it. It's worth nothing altogether.
I don't mind Elon and the idea, but it's not sustainable long term. It's math. He knows it. He can borrow upwards of 80% of his shares value tax free and owe nothing if it goes to zero. He can use the borrowed money to pay the loan back and whatever else he wants to buy.
People need to understand how rich people live. They don't "make" money. Musk gives no shits about the environment. None. His cars are worse for the environment. Again as a Monday morning quarterback I actually don't dislike the guy, but I know what he's doing. Make an average looking golf cart, get government subsidies, go public, borrow against his shares and run. The guy can borrow $1B and pay his debt service fee/interest for life and still be left with billions. He's not bad for this, but this is what he's doing. He lies when he says he pays income taxes. That would be fucking stupid for someone in his position.
29
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 12:49pm
WookieMan says
I plan on going solar with a Tesla Powerwall now that San Diego Gas & Electric allows it to be used as a "virtual utility" where I can use the energy generated in the peak of the day to fill up my Powerwall battery or my car. Then I can choose to sell back that energy in the batteries to the grid during the most expensive energy time (4-9PM) and get a premium.
My daughter gets her license next week and will be looking for an additional car next year. Will likely get the base Model 3 for the wife and let my daughter take over the Hyundai.
My wife spends about $300/month in gas where I spend less than $40 on electricity driving more miles.
socal2 says
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Enjoy it now. You're naive to think it will last for long. They will charge higher rates for EV owners at some point. It's coming. We don't have the grid and they can't go to non-EV owners to cover your bill. Electric will be more expensive than gas for EV's and probably in the near future.
I plan on going solar with a Tesla Powerwall now that San Diego Gas & Electric allows it to be used as a "virtual utility" where I can use the energy generated in the peak of the day to fill up my Powerwall battery or my car. Then I can choose to sell back that energy in the batteries to the grid during the most expensive energy time (4-9PM) and get a premium.
My daughter gets her license next week and will be looking for an additional car next year. Will likely get the base Model 3 for the wife and let my daughter take over the Hyundai.
My wife spends about $300/month in gas where I spend less than $40 on electricity driving more miles.
30
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:58pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:58pm
socal2 says
Good for you. Battery storage is more feasible than the car itself for the cost. It will 100% be more expensive to charge an EV than fuel up at your local gas station in 3-5 minutes in about 2-4 years.
I'm on board for solar and battery storage. Electric cars are simply not the future. Utilities will just charge you more. The biggest and hardest question is how will utilities maintain their grid with double or triple demand? They can't. Oil infrastructure is in place. Price per barrel. Electric rates can literally be flipped overnight. You have an EV? Not paying for road maintenance? Not paying MFT? Register your car? Cool, you're electric rate just double. Or you are required to install a separate meter for your car.
It's coming dude. Enjoy it now. It WILL not be cheaper in the future. If anything more expensive at the cost of the environment. Let's see those coal plants come back online while the greenies won't build new nukes.
I plan on going solar with a Tesla Powerwall now that San Diego Gas & Electric allows it to be used as a "virtual utility" where I can use the energy generated in the peak of the day to fill up my Powerwall battery or my car.
Good for you. Battery storage is more feasible than the car itself for the cost. It will 100% be more expensive to charge an EV than fuel up at your local gas station in 3-5 minutes in about 2-4 years.
I'm on board for solar and battery storage. Electric cars are simply not the future. Utilities will just charge you more. The biggest and hardest question is how will utilities maintain their grid with double or triple demand? They can't. Oil infrastructure is in place. Price per barrel. Electric rates can literally be flipped overnight. You have an EV? Not paying for road maintenance? Not paying MFT? Register your car? Cool, you're electric rate just double. Or you are required to install a separate meter for your car.
It's coming dude. Enjoy it now. It WILL not be cheaper in the future. If anything more expensive at the cost of the environment. Let's see those coal plants come back online while the greenies won't build new nukes.
31
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 1:10pm
WookieMan says
One of my clients has a 10 year old Model S with over 120,000 miles and less than 10% battery degradation. And this is one of the earlier Tesla's that doesn't have the improved battery chemistry and improved thermal management system.
These batteries will last over 1 million miles. There are millions of Teslas on the roads now and very little reports of battery degradation or failure. The seats and interior will wear out before the batteries.
And the used battery value will be massive when it comes time to junk a car as they can recycle 100% of the valuable minerals like Cobalt and Nickel. In fact, it is easier and cheaper to recycle and process existing batteries then it is to mine new material. They say it is like purifying already purified water. It gets easier and cleaner each time. The recycling industry is growing and will be huge. One of Tesla's founders (JB Straubel) is leading the way developing this industry with his new company Redwood Materials.
Within 50 years, we will be in closed loop system where we have enough batteries produced we won't need to mine new material as we can keep recycling and reusing the precious and expensive minerals in expensive batteries.
Factor in there will be no used EV car market either. Battery is near the end of life, ain't nobody touching it. Nobody would be able to junk it. It's worth nothing altogether.
One of my clients has a 10 year old Model S with over 120,000 miles and less than 10% battery degradation. And this is one of the earlier Tesla's that doesn't have the improved battery chemistry and improved thermal management system.
These batteries will last over 1 million miles. There are millions of Teslas on the roads now and very little reports of battery degradation or failure. The seats and interior will wear out before the batteries.
And the used battery value will be massive when it comes time to junk a car as they can recycle 100% of the valuable minerals like Cobalt and Nickel. In fact, it is easier and cheaper to recycle and process existing batteries then it is to mine new material. They say it is like purifying already purified water. It gets easier and cleaner each time. The recycling industry is growing and will be huge. One of Tesla's founders (JB Straubel) is leading the way developing this industry with his new company Redwood Materials.
Within 50 years, we will be in closed loop system where we have enough batteries produced we won't need to mine new material as we can keep recycling and reusing the precious and expensive minerals in expensive batteries.
32
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 1:14pm
WookieMan says
We need to build new nuke plants and install more solar WITH battery backups like I mentioned with the Virtual Power Plant system with the Tesla Power Wall. Solar is great during the day when the sun is high and demand is low. The battery helps level out demand at night.
Leftist environmental retards are finally coming around to nukes with the first new US plant going on line this year.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57280
The biggest and hardest question is how will utilities maintain their grid with double or triple demand?
We need to build new nuke plants and install more solar WITH battery backups like I mentioned with the Virtual Power Plant system with the Tesla Power Wall. Solar is great during the day when the sun is high and demand is low. The battery helps level out demand at night.
Leftist environmental retards are finally coming around to nukes with the first new US plant going on line this year.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57280
33
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 2:32pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 2:32pm
socal2 says
The Georgia plant took well over a decade dude. There is nothing in the pipeline currently for nukes. How the fuck are we going to double EV's? And we're only talking 5-6% of car production. We've taken coal off the grid as much as possible. Where if the flying fuck is this electric coming from? Your bank account. It will cost more for electric 100%.
Fine throw in a solar panel and battery storage. If you have $50k laying around. Electric rates are going to go through the roof. The people that don't have them, 95% of people, ain't gonna deal with it. Your electric rate wil easily 4X in the next 5 years to cover more electric generation, grid maintenance, and MFT or I guess MET (Motor electric tax).
And at the end of the day EV's are worse for the environment. That's indisputable.
socal2 says
You don't golf, do you? We've had EV's for decades. What do golf course pick 9 out of 10 times? Gas golf carts. The economic model has been known for decades. I know the owner of a golf cart dealership. EV's are not feasible long term. Let me know when Ford, Toyota, Chevy, etc stop making trucks and SUV's without V-8 engines. There's a reason. And there's a reason they're still in business. They're playing the greenie game to not lose market share. Not because they believe in EV's. That and getting their stock to hit MPG governmental requirements.
Enjoy Tesla or whatever. At the end of the day these cars won't be around in 10-15 years. Might be something new, but it's not the current configuration. You cannot recycle the batteries either. Otherwise why wouldn't they last forever? It's a fucking con. So they recycle and make a new battery that did the same thing the old one did? Bull shit. And then why did I pay so much for the first one? That market makes zero sense at all. If that's the case, as an early adaptor you're getting raped financially. Battery prices will plummet as they get recycled. A model 3 will go down to $10k because there's not much to it. That's "IF" batteries can be recycled. They can't.
Leftist environmental retards are finally coming around to nukes with the first new US plant going on line this year.
The Georgia plant took well over a decade dude. There is nothing in the pipeline currently for nukes. How the fuck are we going to double EV's? And we're only talking 5-6% of car production. We've taken coal off the grid as much as possible. Where if the flying fuck is this electric coming from? Your bank account. It will cost more for electric 100%.
Fine throw in a solar panel and battery storage. If you have $50k laying around. Electric rates are going to go through the roof. The people that don't have them, 95% of people, ain't gonna deal with it. Your electric rate wil easily 4X in the next 5 years to cover more electric generation, grid maintenance, and MFT or I guess MET (Motor electric tax).
And at the end of the day EV's are worse for the environment. That's indisputable.
socal2 says
Within 50 years, we will be in closed loop system where we have enough batteries produced we won't need to mine new material as we can keep recycling and reusing the precious and expensive minerals in expensive batteries.
You don't golf, do you? We've had EV's for decades. What do golf course pick 9 out of 10 times? Gas golf carts. The economic model has been known for decades. I know the owner of a golf cart dealership. EV's are not feasible long term. Let me know when Ford, Toyota, Chevy, etc stop making trucks and SUV's without V-8 engines. There's a reason. And there's a reason they're still in business. They're playing the greenie game to not lose market share. Not because they believe in EV's. That and getting their stock to hit MPG governmental requirements.
Enjoy Tesla or whatever. At the end of the day these cars won't be around in 10-15 years. Might be something new, but it's not the current configuration. You cannot recycle the batteries either. Otherwise why wouldn't they last forever? It's a fucking con. So they recycle and make a new battery that did the same thing the old one did? Bull shit. And then why did I pay so much for the first one? That market makes zero sense at all. If that's the case, as an early adaptor you're getting raped financially. Battery prices will plummet as they get recycled. A model 3 will go down to $10k because there's not much to it. That's "IF" batteries can be recycled. They can't.
34
yawaraf
2023 Dec 14, 2:47pm
WookieMan says
They separate and purify the chemical elements in the battery cells. It's a process similar to extracting minerals from mined ore.
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/solutions/
You cannot recycle the batteries either.
They separate and purify the chemical elements in the battery cells. It's a process similar to extracting minerals from mined ore.
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/solutions/
35
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 4:06pm
WookieMan says
Not even remotely the same thing since Golf Cart batteries have no thermal management. Tesla's success is in their chemistry and keeping their batteries at ideal temperatures so not to degrade the cathodes to prolong the battery's life.
The Model S has been out for over a decade. Where are all the stories about Tesla's turning to junk?WookieMan says
Mainly due to regulatory hurdles. The Senate passed a bill this year to make licensing new plants easier. This one nuke plant will provide more energy than thousands of windmills and solar panels we have littered all over our country.
https://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2023/7/senate-passes-bipartisan-nuclear-energy-bill-from-capito-carper-whitehouse
WookieMan says
Most of these OEM's will be out of business within a decade with their massive debt, pension liabilities, lazy union workforces and crappy cars. Tesla is already clobbering the other OEM's on profit margin despite having only a fraction of the volume and having just completed building 3 state of the art new factories with no CAPEX debt. Tesla is killing them on their ICE cars and the other OEM's are losing tons of money on every EV they make. That is why many have pulled back on EV's because they can't make a good EV comparable to Tesla without losing money. They wasted the last decade building out more ICE plants and not investing in the future like Tesla did.
There is no catching up to Tesla. This doesn't even count Tesla's massive advantage and head start on Full Self Driving, Battery production, robotics, software etc.
Tesla earns 8 times more profit than Toyota per car (Tesla margins have come down since last year - but they are still beating everyone else)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-earns-8-times-more-profit-than-Toyota-per-car
You don't golf, do you? We've had EV's for decades. What do golf course pick 9 out of 10 times? Gas golf carts. The economic model has been known for decades
Not even remotely the same thing since Golf Cart batteries have no thermal management. Tesla's success is in their chemistry and keeping their batteries at ideal temperatures so not to degrade the cathodes to prolong the battery's life.
The Model S has been out for over a decade. Where are all the stories about Tesla's turning to junk?WookieMan says
The Georgia plant took well over a decade dude.
Mainly due to regulatory hurdles. The Senate passed a bill this year to make licensing new plants easier. This one nuke plant will provide more energy than thousands of windmills and solar panels we have littered all over our country.
https://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2023/7/senate-passes-bipartisan-nuclear-energy-bill-from-capito-carper-whitehouse
WookieMan says
Let me know when Ford, Toyota, Chevy, etc stop making trucks and SUV's without V-8 engines. There's a reason. And there's a reason they're still in business.
Most of these OEM's will be out of business within a decade with their massive debt, pension liabilities, lazy union workforces and crappy cars. Tesla is already clobbering the other OEM's on profit margin despite having only a fraction of the volume and having just completed building 3 state of the art new factories with no CAPEX debt. Tesla is killing them on their ICE cars and the other OEM's are losing tons of money on every EV they make. That is why many have pulled back on EV's because they can't make a good EV comparable to Tesla without losing money. They wasted the last decade building out more ICE plants and not investing in the future like Tesla did.
There is no catching up to Tesla. This doesn't even count Tesla's massive advantage and head start on Full Self Driving, Battery production, robotics, software etc.
Tesla earns 8 times more profit than Toyota per car (Tesla margins have come down since last year - but they are still beating everyone else)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-earns-8-times-more-profit-than-Toyota-per-car
36
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 5:12am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 5:12am
socal2 says
We're in agreement that renewables are mostly useless outside of peak demand when the sun is shining and wind blowing. And yes there were plenty of regulatory hurdles for no reason when we have 50 year old nukes still providing power and it took 40 years to put 2 measly reactors online in Georgia.
My point was and still is, we won't have the grid and capacity for EV's if we just go from 3% to 6% EV's on the road. Someone will have to pay for this. A nuke plant takes a decade at this point and probably longer. I'm not paying higher electric rates when I can fuel my paid off, big ass, V-8 Armada for $150/mo and write it off. My big ass car is 100% cheaper than an EV. Upfront cost. Everything. I also value time. Even a super charger I'm blowing 20 minutes at a stop. Combine my wife and I we're wasting about $120-150 in time to sit there and watch a car charge.
I predict by the summer of 2025 or '26 that EV owners will have to pay extra for their cars to be charged at home. There's no way around this. It will be comparable to gas if not more expensive. And it will likely involve bringing coal power plants back on because nukes in any meaningful way will take 15-20 years to come online.
EV MFT's are coming for sure at minimum. Layer on grid taxes if an EV is registered to your home and it's going to be more expensive than gas. And as more people get EV's gas prices drop. You're shooting yourself in the foot, you just haven't pulled the trigger yet. EV's will 100% be more costly than ICE vehicles in our lifetime without massive grid expansion. Which costs a shit load of money.
Mainly due to regulatory hurdles. The Senate passed a bill this year to make licensing new plants easier. This one nuke plant will provide more energy than thousands of windmills and solar panels we have littered all over our country.
We're in agreement that renewables are mostly useless outside of peak demand when the sun is shining and wind blowing. And yes there were plenty of regulatory hurdles for no reason when we have 50 year old nukes still providing power and it took 40 years to put 2 measly reactors online in Georgia.
My point was and still is, we won't have the grid and capacity for EV's if we just go from 3% to 6% EV's on the road. Someone will have to pay for this. A nuke plant takes a decade at this point and probably longer. I'm not paying higher electric rates when I can fuel my paid off, big ass, V-8 Armada for $150/mo and write it off. My big ass car is 100% cheaper than an EV. Upfront cost. Everything. I also value time. Even a super charger I'm blowing 20 minutes at a stop. Combine my wife and I we're wasting about $120-150 in time to sit there and watch a car charge.
I predict by the summer of 2025 or '26 that EV owners will have to pay extra for their cars to be charged at home. There's no way around this. It will be comparable to gas if not more expensive. And it will likely involve bringing coal power plants back on because nukes in any meaningful way will take 15-20 years to come online.
EV MFT's are coming for sure at minimum. Layer on grid taxes if an EV is registered to your home and it's going to be more expensive than gas. And as more people get EV's gas prices drop. You're shooting yourself in the foot, you just haven't pulled the trigger yet. EV's will 100% be more costly than ICE vehicles in our lifetime without massive grid expansion. Which costs a shit load of money.
37
GNL
2023 Dec 15, 5:57am
GNL
2023 Dec 15, 5:57am
True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon of gas, per new report
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.
38
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 6:11am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 6:11am
GNL says
That's still low though. The government will get their cut to maintain roads. That's my wife's line of work. It's coming. EV's will be as much or more per mile than ICE cars. Hybrids are and will be the future IF your concern is "green" energy. I'm sticking to ICE for the foreseeable future.
Gas taxes have been around for damn near a century. There will be a tax on your electric utility for infrastructure and road maintenance at some point. It's not an if, it's a when. And at that time be ready to short Tesla when people find out that the cheap "charge" days are over.
The problem Tesla has is they don't have an ICE model of anything. Ford, Toyota, GMC, Honda, etc. all have the flexibility to move from ICE to EV and still make money. As I've said I have no issue with Musk or Tesla, but this is about market dynamics. We don't have the grid. It's not green remotely. It's a time suck with charging if you drive a lot, which is more money on an already expensive car. I've done the calculations for my family. A Tesla that could fit us all is easily 2X what an ICE full sized SUV would be. Oil is oil. It doesn't jump that much. Electric can and will double and triple in due time. Trust me. I know the people that make and are in charge of MFT laws. You WILL pay for the roads. Give it a couple years.
True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon of gas, per new report
That's still low though. The government will get their cut to maintain roads. That's my wife's line of work. It's coming. EV's will be as much or more per mile than ICE cars. Hybrids are and will be the future IF your concern is "green" energy. I'm sticking to ICE for the foreseeable future.
Gas taxes have been around for damn near a century. There will be a tax on your electric utility for infrastructure and road maintenance at some point. It's not an if, it's a when. And at that time be ready to short Tesla when people find out that the cheap "charge" days are over.
The problem Tesla has is they don't have an ICE model of anything. Ford, Toyota, GMC, Honda, etc. all have the flexibility to move from ICE to EV and still make money. As I've said I have no issue with Musk or Tesla, but this is about market dynamics. We don't have the grid. It's not green remotely. It's a time suck with charging if you drive a lot, which is more money on an already expensive car. I've done the calculations for my family. A Tesla that could fit us all is easily 2X what an ICE full sized SUV would be. Oil is oil. It doesn't jump that much. Electric can and will double and triple in due time. Trust me. I know the people that make and are in charge of MFT laws. You WILL pay for the roads. Give it a couple years.
39
komputodo
2023 Dec 17, 1:24pm
komputodo
2023 Dec 17, 1:24pm
Tenpoundbass says
To be fair, the shrimp were stringy.
That Jerry Seinfeld is a baaaad MAN, verdy BAD!
To be fair, the shrimp were stringy.
40
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 2:43pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 2:43pm
Someone mentioned to short Tesla in a couple years vs someone who has the foresight and been investing in it for a decade and growing his accounts to almost $25M and continuing to believe Tesla will become even more valuable in the future. If we have to take advice on this subject, who should we listen to?
https://x.com/shrimpteslalong/status/1478174482921517058?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
https://x.com/shrimpteslalong/status/1478174482921517058?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
42
komputodo
2023 Dec 17, 7:54pm
komputodo
2023 Dec 17, 7:54pm
GNL says
kinda like welfare POCs
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists.
kinda like welfare POCs
43
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 17, 9:09pm
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 17, 9:09pm
It might very well be that every ICE car manufacturer will get out of the EV business while Tesla stays and remains the one and only EV manufacturer owning the whole niche (as is the case right now). I'm starting to think that all these silly "mandates" will not be implemented in the US (and will be implemented and then reversed in Europe).
So no real mass transition to EVs and Tesla staying around and doing well might not be as mutually exclusive as many seem to think.
So no real mass transition to EVs and Tesla staying around and doing well might not be as mutually exclusive as many seem to think.
44
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 9:34pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 9:34pm
RWSGFY says
Good observation. OEM manufacturers can’t scale, can’t provide supercharging infrastructure for their EV, and can’t make a profit selling EV. However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
It might very well be that every ICE car manufacturer will get out of the EV business while Tesla stays and remains the one and only EV manufacturer owning the whole niche (as is the case right now). I'm starting to think that all these silly "mandates" will not be implemented in the US (and will be implemented and then reversed in Europe).
So no real mass transition to EVs and Tesla staying around and doing well might not be as mutually exclusive as many seem to think.
Good observation. OEM manufacturers can’t scale, can’t provide supercharging infrastructure for their EV, and can’t make a profit selling EV. However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
45
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:25am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:25am
Eman says
Dude.... Musk is the biggest government grifter in our lifetimes. The guy literally blows rockets up as "tests" with government money and has the government pay for people's cars. Then charges an obscene monthly fee for Starlink that tax payers paid for and most cannot afford.
I have no problem with him, but he's waaaaaaaaaaay deeper in the pockets of government than Ford or Chevy. Go do some math on it. Outside of the MIC, no other single person has gotten more government money in the time frame he has. If people are into green and carbon, he's probably put more into the atmosphere as an individual. He's dumb enough to not realize that a rocket thrust will destroy the living shit out of a launch pad without planning. An interviewer literally changed the design on his rockets. This guy gets billions and billions yet people think Tesla is green and good?
That's what we're trying to tell you and Socal. Sure you "can" do all this, but is it right? I'd say no. We don't have to agree, but as someone that actually pays taxes (you do) it's a bit frustrating from my (our) perspective. I'm libertarian leaning and free capital. Tesla is not remotely either of those. He milks the governments tit. And I get the game and he's playing it. I don't think it's right is all. No one should really unless they're capitalist socialist.
However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
Dude.... Musk is the biggest government grifter in our lifetimes. The guy literally blows rockets up as "tests" with government money and has the government pay for people's cars. Then charges an obscene monthly fee for Starlink that tax payers paid for and most cannot afford.
I have no problem with him, but he's waaaaaaaaaaay deeper in the pockets of government than Ford or Chevy. Go do some math on it. Outside of the MIC, no other single person has gotten more government money in the time frame he has. If people are into green and carbon, he's probably put more into the atmosphere as an individual. He's dumb enough to not realize that a rocket thrust will destroy the living shit out of a launch pad without planning. An interviewer literally changed the design on his rockets. This guy gets billions and billions yet people think Tesla is green and good?
That's what we're trying to tell you and Socal. Sure you "can" do all this, but is it right? I'd say no. We don't have to agree, but as someone that actually pays taxes (you do) it's a bit frustrating from my (our) perspective. I'm libertarian leaning and free capital. Tesla is not remotely either of those. He milks the governments tit. And I get the game and he's playing it. I don't think it's right is all. No one should really unless they're capitalist socialist.
46
socal2
2023 Dec 18, 9:29am
WookieMan says
You couldn't be more wrong and misinformed.
For starters, Tesla hasn't gotten any government incentive that is not available to all of the other OEM's. Tesla was just smart to use that money to invest in improved manufacturing and not artificially goose their stock price to make compliance cars like the others did. Tesla also payed back their initial government loan in full with interest while others like GM had to be bailed out by the tax payers again and again.
SpaceX has already saved the US Government BILLIONS by creating low cost re-usable rockets that can get people and material into orbit at a fraction of the cost of the Space Shuttle, Russian rockets and the other bloated US space contractors.
Look how much tonnage SpaceX has put up in Q3 alone compared to the rest of the world. Not even close.
Dude.... Musk is the biggest government grifter in our lifetimes. The guy literally blows rockets up as "tests" with government money and has the government pay for people's cars. Then charges an obscene monthly fee for Starlink that tax payers paid for and most cannot afford.
You couldn't be more wrong and misinformed.
For starters, Tesla hasn't gotten any government incentive that is not available to all of the other OEM's. Tesla was just smart to use that money to invest in improved manufacturing and not artificially goose their stock price to make compliance cars like the others did. Tesla also payed back their initial government loan in full with interest while others like GM had to be bailed out by the tax payers again and again.
SpaceX has already saved the US Government BILLIONS by creating low cost re-usable rockets that can get people and material into orbit at a fraction of the cost of the Space Shuttle, Russian rockets and the other bloated US space contractors.
Look how much tonnage SpaceX has put up in Q3 alone compared to the rest of the world. Not even close.
47
socal2
2023 Dec 18, 9:34am
Eman says
All of the other OEM's are basically a bankrupt pension fund that build cars on the side. They are all structurally fucked with unions and dealership models building cars that can't hold a candle to Tesla performance and quality. Tesla's already work for the majority of US drivers except the huge population in Illinois that apparently has to haul massive trailers and drive 2000 miles each week visiting grandma.
The OEM's that survive will have Tesla batteries, software and powertrains running their cars like all the computers in the 90' and 00's had "Intel Inside".
Good observation. OEM manufacturers can’t scale, can’t provide supercharging infrastructure for their EV, and can’t make a profit selling EV. However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
All of the other OEM's are basically a bankrupt pension fund that build cars on the side. They are all structurally fucked with unions and dealership models building cars that can't hold a candle to Tesla performance and quality. Tesla's already work for the majority of US drivers except the huge population in Illinois that apparently has to haul massive trailers and drive 2000 miles each week visiting grandma.
The OEM's that survive will have Tesla batteries, software and powertrains running their cars like all the computers in the 90' and 00's had "Intel Inside".
49
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 10:28am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 10:28am
socal2 says
I can do that. Thanks for proving my point. A Tesla can't.
You city/suburban dwellers will never understand. There's not one Tesla in my town. It's not a feasible car outside of coastal areas and super urban areas specifically. You guys need to travel more. It's a city golf cart. That's it. There's nothing else to it. I've driven them. I know multiple owners with them. It's an average car, that for now saves you $100/mo in gas best case once you factor in charging.
I don't think you guys are getting it. I'm not arguing with you or anyone. Business and government WILL 100% get their money. Government for sure is not getting it for roads currently. Your golf cart is going to get a lot more expensive ignoring the out the door price tag. I'm not wrong. Won't be wrong. Again, enjoy it now. No one has given me an example of how EV's are going to pay for the roads they use. I'll wait....
Tesla's already work for the majority of US drivers except the huge population in Illinois that apparently has to haul massive trailers and drive 2000 miles each week visiting grandma.
I can do that. Thanks for proving my point. A Tesla can't.
You city/suburban dwellers will never understand. There's not one Tesla in my town. It's not a feasible car outside of coastal areas and super urban areas specifically. You guys need to travel more. It's a city golf cart. That's it. There's nothing else to it. I've driven them. I know multiple owners with them. It's an average car, that for now saves you $100/mo in gas best case once you factor in charging.
I don't think you guys are getting it. I'm not arguing with you or anyone. Business and government WILL 100% get their money. Government for sure is not getting it for roads currently. Your golf cart is going to get a lot more expensive ignoring the out the door price tag. I'm not wrong. Won't be wrong. Again, enjoy it now. No one has given me an example of how EV's are going to pay for the roads they use. I'll wait....
50
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 18, 11:09am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 18, 11:09am
WookieMan says
CA tacks on an EV-specific registration fee since 2020:
https://electrek.co/2020/07/10/california-starts-charging-ev-registration-fees-up-to-175-in-july/
$175 is on par with what an owner of 35-40mpg hybrid driving 12-15K miles per year will pay in CA gas taxes.
No one has given me an example of how EV's are going to pay for the roads they use. I'll wait....
CA tacks on an EV-specific registration fee since 2020:
https://electrek.co/2020/07/10/california-starts-charging-ev-registration-fees-up-to-175-in-july/
$175 is on par with what an owner of 35-40mpg hybrid driving 12-15K miles per year will pay in CA gas taxes.
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Then without thinking, all of the other important decision morons, jumped on board and said "Not only that, but let's make gas cars so expensive nobody can afford them!"
Well now there's this.
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/12/11/theyre-stacking-up/
I think Joe Biden giving 6 billion to build EV charging stations, then did dickall with those tax dollars. And the fact that people realize they have to spend 20 to 40 thousand dollar just to install an EV charger at their home, is a real buzzkill. No the EV chargers themselves don't cost 40K to install. But most people's house electric panel is already maxed out, and the Electric company is only giving them 200amp service. Many houses will need the Electric company install a bigger amperage meter box and run a thicker wire. Then from there have to wire in subpanels, or replace the inside main breaker panel.
Even many companies had to upgrade their electric so their CEOs and other executives could have a charger installed in their parking spots.
Combine that with the resent press, that people are having a hard time finding chargers when they venture outside of their Nerdiehood, where there's chargers, to areas where there are none. They can't make long trips, because of the lack of charging stations in between. But not only that even if there are chargers in between. It turns out with so many EVs on the road, you can expect a two hour wait, to wait your turn for the charger.
That Jerry Seinfeld is a baaaad MAN, verdy BAD!