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Ya'll remember when Jerry Sienfeld told Apu, that he should make his native Pakistani food at his restaurant, then he did and know one came?
invite response
2023 Dec 12, 5:40pm 1,663 views 50 comments
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1
HeadSet
2023 Dec 12, 6:36pm
HeadSet
2023 Dec 12, 6:36pm
Tenpoundbass says
A Level 2 charger costs about $1500 around here to install. If your house already has a dryer, you already have enough juice to charge a car with a level 2 charger. Especially true if you can run a dryer, furnace, and electric stove at the same time. In fact, that Bolt that Chevy loaned me had an adapter that allowed Level 2 charging by plugging into an existing dryer socket.
And the fact that people realize they have to spend 20 to 40 thousand dollar just to install an EV charger at their home, is a real buzzkill. No the EV chargers themselves don't cost 40K to install. But most people's house electric panel is already maxed out, and the Electric company is only giving them 200amp service. Many houses will need the Electric company install a bigger amperage meter box and run a thicker wire. Then from there have to wire in subpanels, or replace the inside main breaker panel.
A Level 2 charger costs about $1500 around here to install. If your house already has a dryer, you already have enough juice to charge a car with a level 2 charger. Especially true if you can run a dryer, furnace, and electric stove at the same time. In fact, that Bolt that Chevy loaned me had an adapter that allowed Level 2 charging by plugging into an existing dryer socket.
2
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 12, 7:19pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 12, 7:19pm
Level 2 chargers can deliver up to 80 amps of power. But that requires a 100-amp 208-240V dedicated circuit and a heavy, costly supply line from the breaker box. Most owners will be well served choosing a 40-amp charger that can deliver 9.6 kW to the EV. A 48-amp charger can charge slightly faster at 11.5 kW, but requires a heavier gauge wire and the charger must be hardwired to comply with the NEC code. Therefore, 48-amp chargers can cost significantly more than a 40-amp unit and offer only marginally faster charging.
Even with the 40 amp unit, you will need two breaker spaces. And you will probably want to put in a 50 amp breaker. Those chargers charge at 12 to 80 miles per hour. You'll be running a 40 amp load for 8 to 10 hours to fully charge. But many people will feel that's not adequate enough for those that need their car to sprint around all day. They will want the 100 amp version. That 50 amp breaker for the 40 amp unit, is no short order for an already strained 200amp service. New homes these days, has more double pole breakers cranking out 240V than ever before. Tankless water heaters use 3 60 amp breakers if done correctly. That's 6 panel spaces, and if you don't have subpanel near your outside main, and a disconnect, you'll have to put one in. You're not squeezing that into the panel in your hallway of your 1970's era Burbdale Ranchero home. I'm constantly seeing service calls over breakers tripping and boxes not having enough power, that's in homes without an EV charger.
No you're not plugging your car into your stove outlet, nor are you piggy backing off of that wire. Houses should have 300amps panels but the electric company is still giving residential homes 200amp boxes, because the powerlines ran in neighborhoods were set up for it. Older homes from the20's through 50's had 60 and 90amp boxes. You're not getting an EV if you live in one of those houses.
Even with the 40 amp unit, you will need two breaker spaces. And you will probably want to put in a 50 amp breaker. Those chargers charge at 12 to 80 miles per hour. You'll be running a 40 amp load for 8 to 10 hours to fully charge. But many people will feel that's not adequate enough for those that need their car to sprint around all day. They will want the 100 amp version. That 50 amp breaker for the 40 amp unit, is no short order for an already strained 200amp service. New homes these days, has more double pole breakers cranking out 240V than ever before. Tankless water heaters use 3 60 amp breakers if done correctly. That's 6 panel spaces, and if you don't have subpanel near your outside main, and a disconnect, you'll have to put one in. You're not squeezing that into the panel in your hallway of your 1970's era Burbdale Ranchero home. I'm constantly seeing service calls over breakers tripping and boxes not having enough power, that's in homes without an EV charger.
No you're not plugging your car into your stove outlet, nor are you piggy backing off of that wire. Houses should have 300amps panels but the electric company is still giving residential homes 200amp boxes, because the powerlines ran in neighborhoods were set up for it. Older homes from the20's through 50's had 60 and 90amp boxes. You're not getting an EV if you live in one of those houses.
3
socal2
2023 Dec 12, 7:47pm
If you are going to go electric, you got to go Tesla or go home.
All other EV makers are crap and too expensive.
Tesla is light years ahead of everyone else (including ICE cars) on everything.
I just have a 30 amp circuit in my garage and use the standard travel charger and that gives me plenty of juice (22/miles an hour) for overnight charging.
All other EV makers are crap and too expensive.
Tesla is light years ahead of everyone else (including ICE cars) on everything.
I just have a 30 amp circuit in my garage and use the standard travel charger and that gives me plenty of juice (22/miles an hour) for overnight charging.
4
HeadSet
2023 Dec 13, 8:23am
HeadSet
2023 Dec 13, 8:23am
socal2 says
I agree that Tesla is way ahead, but I would not call that Chevy Bolt overpriced crap. The price was $27k for the Bolt EUV which had a similar body style as a RAV4. The issue seems to be the market, as the Bolt was designed for lower income folks who typically live in apartments while the Tesla is affordable by higher income people who typically own homes that can have a Level 2 charger installed. Why this matters is that always using a Level 3 fast charger on an EV, even a Telsa, is bad for the battery. A Tesla owner typically charges at home and uses the Level 3 for long trips. But the Bolt owner without a home charger or even a convenient 110v outlet is dependent on the commercial chargers. Anticipating that, Chevrolet limited the charge rate to 50kW to conserve the battery. Unfortunately, that means it takes 2 hours on a Level 3 charger to refill a near empty Bolt to get the 230 mile range. Tesla has no such limit and can charge 100 miles in 15 minutes. The Bolt would be a real pain on long trips but not bad as a commuter for those who can charge at home. If one lives 10 miles from work, one could top of the car overnight even with a 110v plug (4 miles per hour charge rate). If one cannot charge the Bolt at home, then one is looking at spending 2 hours every other week parked at a commercial charger, possibly while they can shop or hit a restaurant.
If you are going to go electric, you got to go Tesla or go home.
I agree that Tesla is way ahead, but I would not call that Chevy Bolt overpriced crap. The price was $27k for the Bolt EUV which had a similar body style as a RAV4. The issue seems to be the market, as the Bolt was designed for lower income folks who typically live in apartments while the Tesla is affordable by higher income people who typically own homes that can have a Level 2 charger installed. Why this matters is that always using a Level 3 fast charger on an EV, even a Telsa, is bad for the battery. A Tesla owner typically charges at home and uses the Level 3 for long trips. But the Bolt owner without a home charger or even a convenient 110v outlet is dependent on the commercial chargers. Anticipating that, Chevrolet limited the charge rate to 50kW to conserve the battery. Unfortunately, that means it takes 2 hours on a Level 3 charger to refill a near empty Bolt to get the 230 mile range. Tesla has no such limit and can charge 100 miles in 15 minutes. The Bolt would be a real pain on long trips but not bad as a commuter for those who can charge at home. If one lives 10 miles from work, one could top of the car overnight even with a 110v plug (4 miles per hour charge rate). If one cannot charge the Bolt at home, then one is looking at spending 2 hours every other week parked at a commercial charger, possibly while they can shop or hit a restaurant.
5
WookieMan
2023 Dec 13, 8:56am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 13, 8:56am
HeadSet says
I'll take 400 miles in 5 minutes 10 out of 10 times on a road trip gas station stop. We fly now, but would travel to the FL Panhandle at least twice a year by car. 12-16 hours. ~2 fill ups. Not stopping 20-30 minutes 5-6 times. You're getting a hotel at that point while paying for an expensive car that isn't actually green or good for the environment.
EV's are the most ass backwards logic besides covid I've seen in my lifetime. I'll admit they're fun to drive. That's it. Also no one knows the longevity and repair costs. I have an 11 year old Armada with 230k miles and I've paid $600 for a starter. Other maintenance a Tesla or any other EV would need. Oil changes I guess but those are trivial unless you're poor and they just don't do them anyway and the car keeps running. Oil and sand have been around for thousands and thousands of years yet people believe they need to be replaced in their cars or pool filters.
I have a 48v golf cart. The battery replacement is going to be insane on a Tesla. Very few have had to do it and Telsa has probably handled most to keep the curtain covering the reality that is coming. Once they can't cover the replacement of the OG's we're going to see $10k replacement batteries. My engine on my car will run another 200k miles no problem with $1,200 in maintenance over 5-7 years.
Either way we don't have the grid to support it much longer, utilities WILL change the costs for electric as your registration is linked to your address, we don't know the true longevity yet, limited milage, not green, in fact dirtier, and long charge times on long trips. I'm out and will be for the foreseeable future. EV's already cost to much and WILL become more expensive then gas. Might take a decade, but it's coming. Enjoy it now. Higher electric rates for new nukes or dirty coal plants coming back on line are coming. Yea green!
Tesla has no such limit and can charge 100 miles in 15 minutes.
I'll take 400 miles in 5 minutes 10 out of 10 times on a road trip gas station stop. We fly now, but would travel to the FL Panhandle at least twice a year by car. 12-16 hours. ~2 fill ups. Not stopping 20-30 minutes 5-6 times. You're getting a hotel at that point while paying for an expensive car that isn't actually green or good for the environment.
EV's are the most ass backwards logic besides covid I've seen in my lifetime. I'll admit they're fun to drive. That's it. Also no one knows the longevity and repair costs. I have an 11 year old Armada with 230k miles and I've paid $600 for a starter. Other maintenance a Tesla or any other EV would need. Oil changes I guess but those are trivial unless you're poor and they just don't do them anyway and the car keeps running. Oil and sand have been around for thousands and thousands of years yet people believe they need to be replaced in their cars or pool filters.
I have a 48v golf cart. The battery replacement is going to be insane on a Tesla. Very few have had to do it and Telsa has probably handled most to keep the curtain covering the reality that is coming. Once they can't cover the replacement of the OG's we're going to see $10k replacement batteries. My engine on my car will run another 200k miles no problem with $1,200 in maintenance over 5-7 years.
Either way we don't have the grid to support it much longer, utilities WILL change the costs for electric as your registration is linked to your address, we don't know the true longevity yet, limited milage, not green, in fact dirtier, and long charge times on long trips. I'm out and will be for the foreseeable future. EV's already cost to much and WILL become more expensive then gas. Might take a decade, but it's coming. Enjoy it now. Higher electric rates for new nukes or dirty coal plants coming back on line are coming. Yea green!
6
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 10:12am
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 10:12am
WookieMan says
They have their purpose, but they aren't a one shoe fits every foot option.
The biggest thing not feasible about them, would be if they actually did reach critical mass. If they were as widely adopted as much as the Greenies would like. Between the battery production and disposal being a toxic hazardous materials logistics nightmare.
socal2 says
That's the second problem. For everyone that can wait an hour to drive 22 miles, because 22 miles would be plenty to drive around in your daily orbit. There's a bigger population that 22 miles an hour charging, just wont do. Just look at the electrical map to give you an idea. All of those red areas, 60% has to drive 22 miles one way, just to get to their Walmart. The stores that used to be just down the road, were put out of business by Walmart.
There's an unspoken inconvenience that is being danced around by pro EV owners. That is people are sometimes forgetful and didn't remember to plug their EV the night before, because they were in the middle of an important phone call when they pulled home the previous evening. Or equally distractions could cause it. What do those people do, call Uber? What about the batter degrading over time? Where at first when the EV was new, they got consistent range out of a full charge, but over a few years the range starts degrading, leaving them stranded with a drained charge more often.
In most battery dependent situations, the user makes sure they have more batteries or those battery operated products, to switch and use when the current one they are using battery dies. You average consumer wont be able to. But businesses and people who can afford it. Will always have EVs hooked up to the charger, while the other ones are in use. Meaning the Power needs will be double what most people are thinking will be needed. And frankly even more people/businesses will opt for something like the Tesla Super Chargers. Which as I have laid out before wont be feasible for the vast majority of people/business.
How many people do you see on a day to day bases, that ask you if you have a charger, or somewhere they can plug their phone into?
That's how common those same people will be stranded on the side of the road with a dead EV.
EV's are the most ass backwards logic besides covid I've seen in my lifetime. I'll admit they're fun to drive.
They have their purpose, but they aren't a one shoe fits every foot option.
The biggest thing not feasible about them, would be if they actually did reach critical mass. If they were as widely adopted as much as the Greenies would like. Between the battery production and disposal being a toxic hazardous materials logistics nightmare.
socal2 says
I just have a 30 amp circuit in my garage and use the standard travel charger and that gives me plenty of juice (22/miles an hour) for overnight charging.
That's the second problem. For everyone that can wait an hour to drive 22 miles, because 22 miles would be plenty to drive around in your daily orbit. There's a bigger population that 22 miles an hour charging, just wont do. Just look at the electrical map to give you an idea. All of those red areas, 60% has to drive 22 miles one way, just to get to their Walmart. The stores that used to be just down the road, were put out of business by Walmart.
There's an unspoken inconvenience that is being danced around by pro EV owners. That is people are sometimes forgetful and didn't remember to plug their EV the night before, because they were in the middle of an important phone call when they pulled home the previous evening. Or equally distractions could cause it. What do those people do, call Uber? What about the batter degrading over time? Where at first when the EV was new, they got consistent range out of a full charge, but over a few years the range starts degrading, leaving them stranded with a drained charge more often.
In most battery dependent situations, the user makes sure they have more batteries or those battery operated products, to switch and use when the current one they are using battery dies. You average consumer wont be able to. But businesses and people who can afford it. Will always have EVs hooked up to the charger, while the other ones are in use. Meaning the Power needs will be double what most people are thinking will be needed. And frankly even more people/businesses will opt for something like the Tesla Super Chargers. Which as I have laid out before wont be feasible for the vast majority of people/business.
How many people do you see on a day to day bases, that ask you if you have a charger, or somewhere they can plug their phone into?
That's how common those same people will be stranded on the side of the road with a dead EV.
7
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 10:23am
HeadSet says
I drove a Chevy Bolt for 3 years before getting a Model Y.
The Bolt was super fun little hot hatch car, but nowhere close to my Y in terms of range, performance, features and quality. My Bolt also had the battery recall where I had to park it on the driveway due to risk of fire. Tesla never had that problem.
The new Model 3's (with incentives) are about $30K right now.
I agree that Tesla is way ahead, but I would not call that Chevy Bolt overpriced crap. The price was $27k for the Bolt EUV which had a similar body style as a RAV4.
I drove a Chevy Bolt for 3 years before getting a Model Y.
The Bolt was super fun little hot hatch car, but nowhere close to my Y in terms of range, performance, features and quality. My Bolt also had the battery recall where I had to park it on the driveway due to risk of fire. Tesla never had that problem.
The new Model 3's (with incentives) are about $30K right now.
8
Ceffer
2023 Dec 13, 10:24am
Ceffer
2023 Dec 13, 10:24am
'Renewable Green Technology' is a Satanic inversion lie intended to sucker punch us into failed and failing, non-renewable technology. It's the road to the Globalists "'First freeze them, then starve them' campaign". "They will then be the appropriate slaves at our mercy and disposal that we designate, fighting each other".
Green tech is designed to fail. They bribe the usual corrupt political suspects to promote it through government.
Green tech is designed to fail. They bribe the usual corrupt political suspects to promote it through government.
9
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 10:35am
Tenpoundbass says
I drive over 1,000 miles a month. All I do is plug my car in at night (when I get super low energy rates) 2 to 3 times a week and my car always has a full battery in the morning providing me over 300 miles of range. Costs me less than $10 to fill my tank saving over $200/month in gas.
It can't be easier, cheaper or more convenient.
Charging at home with my slowish 30 amp circuit allows me to drive from San Diego to LA and back on a single charge. When I do longer road trips to Vegas or Phoenix, I have to stop at a Tesla Supercharger for one stop for about 15 minutes getting me from 20% battery up to 80%.
I will never buy an ICE car ever again. Driving a Tesla is superior in every conceivable way IMO. I don't want the government forcing this on the public. The public will come around naturally as Tesla continues to dominate and drive down costs. The Model Y will be the best selling car in the world this year (including ICE cars) and Tesla doesn't do a lick of advertising. Elon famously said "Fuck You" to advertisers trying to shut down Twitter/X.
That said, if you don't have a garage or a place at home to charge, I would not recommend any EV right now. It is certainly doable relying on Tesla Super Chargers, but it really take away one of the great conveniences and benefits of charging at night when you are asleep.
That's the second problem. For everyone that can wait an hour to drive 22 miles, because 22 miles would be plenty to drive around in your daily orbit. There's a bigger population that 22 miles an hour charging,
I drive over 1,000 miles a month. All I do is plug my car in at night (when I get super low energy rates) 2 to 3 times a week and my car always has a full battery in the morning providing me over 300 miles of range. Costs me less than $10 to fill my tank saving over $200/month in gas.
It can't be easier, cheaper or more convenient.
Charging at home with my slowish 30 amp circuit allows me to drive from San Diego to LA and back on a single charge. When I do longer road trips to Vegas or Phoenix, I have to stop at a Tesla Supercharger for one stop for about 15 minutes getting me from 20% battery up to 80%.
I will never buy an ICE car ever again. Driving a Tesla is superior in every conceivable way IMO. I don't want the government forcing this on the public. The public will come around naturally as Tesla continues to dominate and drive down costs. The Model Y will be the best selling car in the world this year (including ICE cars) and Tesla doesn't do a lick of advertising. Elon famously said "Fuck You" to advertisers trying to shut down Twitter/X.
That said, if you don't have a garage or a place at home to charge, I would not recommend any EV right now. It is certainly doable relying on Tesla Super Chargers, but it really take away one of the great conveniences and benefits of charging at night when you are asleep.
10
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 12:29pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 12:29pm
If what you said was accurate, then your 1000 miles a month could be accomplished with only 3 1/2 full charges.
You should be getting 26 days of driving out of 3 days of charging.
You should be getting 26 days of driving out of 3 days of charging.
11
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 1:15pm
Tenpoundbass says
I only charge for 6 hours/night adding 132 miles per evening to take advantage of the cheap electricity rate. Over 99% of my charging is at home and you try to keep the battery between 20-80% full for normal everyday driving. You never drain the battery down to zero or charge to 100% unless you are on a road trip.
So that works out to be about 2-3 charge sessions at home each week.
Couldn't be easier or cheaper!
If what you said was accurate, then your 1000 miles a month could be accomplished with only 3 1/2 full charges.
You should be getting 26 days of driving out of 3 days of charging.
I only charge for 6 hours/night adding 132 miles per evening to take advantage of the cheap electricity rate. Over 99% of my charging is at home and you try to keep the battery between 20-80% full for normal everyday driving. You never drain the battery down to zero or charge to 100% unless you are on a road trip.
So that works out to be about 2-3 charge sessions at home each week.
Couldn't be easier or cheaper!
12
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 13, 1:36pm
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 13, 1:36pm
The insurance rates on these Tesla things are outrageous though. Literally 2x of a similarly-priced new car.
13
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 2:15pm
Eric Holder says
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Rates will come down eventually as the data continues to prove out that Teslas are safer and more reliable then virtually every other car on the road. We are still in the early adopter phase, but more and more data is coming in every day as well as more 3rd party repair shops.
I also get savings on no oil changes, no brake jobs or pad replacements, no transmission maintenance, no fuel or oil filter replacements, little need for tire rotation with Tesla's AWD and amazing traction control.
I totally get why people don't want the government mandating or forcing EV's on people (especially non-Teslas) - but these cars are truly a wonder.
The insurance rates on these Tesla things are outrageous though. Literally 2x of a similarly-priced new car.
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Rates will come down eventually as the data continues to prove out that Teslas are safer and more reliable then virtually every other car on the road. We are still in the early adopter phase, but more and more data is coming in every day as well as more 3rd party repair shops.
I also get savings on no oil changes, no brake jobs or pad replacements, no transmission maintenance, no fuel or oil filter replacements, little need for tire rotation with Tesla's AWD and amazing traction control.
I totally get why people don't want the government mandating or forcing EV's on people (especially non-Teslas) - but these cars are truly a wonder.
14
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:33pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:33pm
Some folks like pork chops, and some folks like ham hocks and others like vegetable soup.
Can't you just enjoy your EV car, while you're in your zone of your EV Nirvana?
Every time I find a niche that I enjoy, over popularizing, or making it the sole source beating out all other competing options. Usually destroys absolutely every single last benefit I found myself in, when I first discovered that niche?
As optimistic you are about EVs there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are adamant, that will never adopt with no shortage of reasons for thinking so. People genuinely loath them, I don't think it's because they feel they are superior. But because they are being foisted upon them by people who have zero respect for other people's desires, wants and needs. If they do away with ICE cars, people will find away to convert their engines or make engines that can and will run on everything from Yard Waste to timber poached from National Forests, used cooking oil, any cheap readily available chemical they can find,, or anything combustible. It will set the emissions standards of ICE cars back by a century. Nefarious people can not nor will not bend the will of those that need their needs provided for. They will not sit back and watch the rich folks zip around in their subsidized electric cars while they wait on exploding busses to get around, that may run out of battery on the way to work.
You love EVs Elon is making some nice cars with a decent price point. Right now Elon's EVs are at the same point that Computers were when the EMachines were cheap. It put a computer in every home, and created the tech price wars after the tech crash. But you noticed after everyone was on board, computers went back to being expensive, unless you bought a Chrome Book or the stripped down Windows machine running on Intel Atom. They became a joke compared to what computers were, when they were trying to put one in every household.
Just wait and see what Tesla starts churning out and for what price when the subsidies stop, Elon is ousted as CEO, or Tesla is taken over or bought out.
That quality and price point ratio will go out the window.
So be careful what you wish for, it wont be as cool as it sounds in your head.
Can't you just enjoy your EV car, while you're in your zone of your EV Nirvana?
Every time I find a niche that I enjoy, over popularizing, or making it the sole source beating out all other competing options. Usually destroys absolutely every single last benefit I found myself in, when I first discovered that niche?
As optimistic you are about EVs there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are adamant, that will never adopt with no shortage of reasons for thinking so. People genuinely loath them, I don't think it's because they feel they are superior. But because they are being foisted upon them by people who have zero respect for other people's desires, wants and needs. If they do away with ICE cars, people will find away to convert their engines or make engines that can and will run on everything from Yard Waste to timber poached from National Forests, used cooking oil, any cheap readily available chemical they can find,, or anything combustible. It will set the emissions standards of ICE cars back by a century. Nefarious people can not nor will not bend the will of those that need their needs provided for. They will not sit back and watch the rich folks zip around in their subsidized electric cars while they wait on exploding busses to get around, that may run out of battery on the way to work.
You love EVs Elon is making some nice cars with a decent price point. Right now Elon's EVs are at the same point that Computers were when the EMachines were cheap. It put a computer in every home, and created the tech price wars after the tech crash. But you noticed after everyone was on board, computers went back to being expensive, unless you bought a Chrome Book or the stripped down Windows machine running on Intel Atom. They became a joke compared to what computers were, when they were trying to put one in every household.
Just wait and see what Tesla starts churning out and for what price when the subsidies stop, Elon is ousted as CEO, or Tesla is taken over or bought out.
That quality and price point ratio will go out the window.
So be careful what you wish for, it wont be as cool as it sounds in your head.
15
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:42pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 2:42pm
How will the eco police in their EVs give chase to the ICE outlaws in their hulking 4x4 with an LS 650 engine when they go off road?
ICE cars can't go over rough terrain without much ill effect, as long as their suspension holds up. EVs car frame is a battery array, to much flexing will cause them to explode. I suspect that is the number one reason cars and busses catch fire, because they jumped a curb or something made their car flex to the point something shorted out. I don't think it's because of faulty wiring or defective parts.
ICE cars can't go over rough terrain without much ill effect, as long as their suspension holds up. EVs car frame is a battery array, to much flexing will cause them to explode. I suspect that is the number one reason cars and busses catch fire, because they jumped a curb or something made their car flex to the point something shorted out. I don't think it's because of faulty wiring or defective parts.
16
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 13, 3:24pm
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 13, 3:24pm
socal2 says
What savings? I rented Teslas and Camry hybrids from Hertz and purely fuel cost for hybrids was $0.13 per mile while Teslas were $0.16. Yes, I charged it at siperchargers (because fucking Hertz doesn't include cables with their rentals) but the late evening rate was similar to one I pay at home: $0.33-0.35 per kWh vs $0.32-0.36, iirc.
Eric Holder says
The insurance rates on these Tesla things are outrageous though. Literally 2x of a similarly-priced new car.
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
What savings? I rented Teslas and Camry hybrids from Hertz and purely fuel cost for hybrids was $0.13 per mile while Teslas were $0.16. Yes, I charged it at siperchargers (because fucking Hertz doesn't include cables with their rentals) but the late evening rate was similar to one I pay at home: $0.33-0.35 per kWh vs $0.32-0.36, iirc.
17
Ceffer
2023 Dec 13, 7:19pm
Ceffer
2023 Dec 13, 7:19pm
Not to mention even if you get into a minor accident in an EV, you have to replace the battery, which often costs more than the car is worth. They are excellent remote controlled triggered bombs, though. More on designed to fail green technology.
18
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 7:41pm
RWSGFY says
My SDGE EV plan is $.15 kWh 12:00-6:00AM and 12:00AM-2:00PM on the weekends. Believe that works out to about $.04/mile for me.
Regardless of the cost of ownership savings, I will never be able to give up regenerative braking and one pedal driving you get with Teslas and EVs. I live in a hilly area and have lots of fun roads to drive fast and build up speed. I can't stand driving my wife's Hyundai Santa Fe grinding on the friction brakes if I hit the traffic light wrong on the big hill out of my neighborhood.
Driving ICE cars feels so primitive to me now.
What savings? I rented Teslas and Camry hybrids from Hertz and purely fuel cost for hybrids was $0.13 per mile while Teslas were $0.16. Yes, I charged it at siperchargers (because fucking Hertz doesn't include cables with their rentals) but the late evening rate was similar to one I pay at home: $0.33-0.35 per kWh vs $0.32-0.36, iirc.
My SDGE EV plan is $.15 kWh 12:00-6:00AM and 12:00AM-2:00PM on the weekends. Believe that works out to about $.04/mile for me.
Regardless of the cost of ownership savings, I will never be able to give up regenerative braking and one pedal driving you get with Teslas and EVs. I live in a hilly area and have lots of fun roads to drive fast and build up speed. I can't stand driving my wife's Hyundai Santa Fe grinding on the friction brakes if I hit the traffic light wrong on the big hill out of my neighborhood.
Driving ICE cars feels so primitive to me now.
19
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 7:52pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Dec 13, 7:52pm
https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2023/12/13/bidens-green-energy-flop-ford-cuts-electric-truck-production-in-half-over-lack-of-demand/
The point of this thread was not the EV's virtues, but the fact people are flat out rejecting them. Ford EV Trucks and Cars are sitting on the lot unsold. So now Ford is cutting back on production of them.
There will be no natural adopting, and I don't think you can force people to accept them when the physics isn't even there to make your case.
You early adopters are it. Either people will embrace them or they wont. But it wont be the universal must have they were made out to be.
The point of this thread was not the EV's virtues, but the fact people are flat out rejecting them. Ford EV Trucks and Cars are sitting on the lot unsold. So now Ford is cutting back on production of them.
There will be no natural adopting, and I don't think you can force people to accept them when the physics isn't even there to make your case.
You early adopters are it. Either people will embrace them or they wont. But it wont be the universal must have they were made out to be.
20
Eman
2023 Dec 13, 7:57pm
Eman
2023 Dec 13, 7:57pm
Tenpoundbass says
Ford can’t sell their EVs in volume because their EVs are inferior and overpriced. The worst part is that they have no charging infrastructure for their customers. Then look at all other OEM car manufacturers, same problem.
https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2023/12/13/bidens-green-energy-flop-ford-cuts-electric-truck-production-in-half-over-lack-of-demand/
The point of this thread was not the EV's virtues, but the fact people are flat out rejecting them. Ford EV Trucks and Cars are sitting on the lot unsold. So now Ford is cutting back on production of them.
There will be no natural adopting, and I don't think you can force people to accept them when the physics isn't even there to make your case.
You early adopters are it. Either people will embrace them or they wont. But it wont be the universal must have they were made out to be.
Ford can’t sell their EVs in volume because their EVs are inferior and overpriced. The worst part is that they have no charging infrastructure for their customers. Then look at all other OEM car manufacturers, same problem.
21
socal2
2023 Dec 13, 8:12pm
Eman says
This. Many of the major OEM's are screwed and will be gone within 10 years.
Meanwhile, Tesla can't build cars fast enough to meet their sky high demand and are making industry leading profits. This demand all generated without a lick of advertising. Just word of mouth by obnoxious fanboys like me. Wait until Cybertrucks are spotted all over the roads.
Ford can’t sell their EVs in volume because their EVs are inferior and overpriced.
This. Many of the major OEM's are screwed and will be gone within 10 years.
Meanwhile, Tesla can't build cars fast enough to meet their sky high demand and are making industry leading profits. This demand all generated without a lick of advertising. Just word of mouth by obnoxious fanboys like me. Wait until Cybertrucks are spotted all over the roads.
22
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:18am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:18am
socal2 says
Enjoy it now. You're naive to think it will last for long. They will charge higher rates for EV owners at some point. It's coming. We don't have the grid and they can't go to non-EV owners to cover your bill. Electric will be more expensive than gas for EV's and probably in the near future.
Fun to drive, but that will be it probably in 2-4 years when your utility will charge you X% more because of a vehicle is registered to your home. Also I can get a car way cheaper than a Model 3 that can do 50mpg+ used. https://www.carmax.com/car/25039524 Just one example. $15k in my pocket out the gate or half the car payment if you get a loan. NEVER buy new cars either. I can make more on the $15k saved than the difference of gas vs EV.
The cost of a car isn't about fuel or electric as a decision. Your decision is ultimately that it's fun to drive. It 100% won't be cheaper to drive even now or in the near future with ALL costs included.
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Enjoy it now. You're naive to think it will last for long. They will charge higher rates for EV owners at some point. It's coming. We don't have the grid and they can't go to non-EV owners to cover your bill. Electric will be more expensive than gas for EV's and probably in the near future.
Fun to drive, but that will be it probably in 2-4 years when your utility will charge you X% more because of a vehicle is registered to your home. Also I can get a car way cheaper than a Model 3 that can do 50mpg+ used. https://www.carmax.com/car/25039524 Just one example. $15k in my pocket out the gate or half the car payment if you get a loan. NEVER buy new cars either. I can make more on the $15k saved than the difference of gas vs EV.
The cost of a car isn't about fuel or electric as a decision. Your decision is ultimately that it's fun to drive. It 100% won't be cheaper to drive even now or in the near future with ALL costs included.
23
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 14, 7:39am
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 14, 7:39am
Utilities now offer EV plans that charge less per kWh, not more. How much less - IDK.
24
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:45am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 7:45am
RWSGFY says
"Now" being the key word. Double the charing as more hit the road. We're taking nukes off line and coal. Our power grid doesn't have the capacity to charge these cars. The cost of oil refining and production is set as far as electric needs. You can't just add 1-2M oversized golf carts to the grid. Someone has to pay for that. Rates spikes are coming for EV owners. Call me out if I'm wrong. I give it 2-4 years. Unfortunately I think it will be passed on to everyone, but ultimately the cost will be more than gas.
Utilities now offer EV plans that charge less per kWh, not more. How much less - IDK.
"Now" being the key word. Double the charing as more hit the road. We're taking nukes off line and coal. Our power grid doesn't have the capacity to charge these cars. The cost of oil refining and production is set as far as electric needs. You can't just add 1-2M oversized golf carts to the grid. Someone has to pay for that. Rates spikes are coming for EV owners. Call me out if I'm wrong. I give it 2-4 years. Unfortunately I think it will be passed on to everyone, but ultimately the cost will be more than gas.
25
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:04am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:04am
socal2 says
Yeah, wait is right. And you still can’t get the top of the line model one delivered anyway, only the junk base model and even then probably take over a year to get it if you ordered today. I wanted a fully decked out cyber truck in 2020 before inflation caused all the prices to skyrocket. But reality was not kind to this idea. And now the competition is putting out comparable e-Trucks that you can actually buy today or at least in 2024.
The cyber truck looks cool, but it’s vapor ware. And if you could buy one it would be a waste of money. A regular gas powered f-150 or Silverado would be much less expensive to own over the next 10-15 years. Plus the ICE F-150 will be 10x more likely to be still on the road 200,000 miles or 20 years later, especially in the cold weather.
Your fun little electro mobile might be great for commuting in sunny Southern CA but the older and colder it gets, the less desirable it would be to the people I know who are usually 30-60 minute commuters when the weather is nice and like to pull boats, RV’s and go on longer road trips.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/29/23979850/tesla-cybertruck-delivery-design-production-problems-delay
Wait until Cybertrucks are spotted all over the roads.
Yeah, wait is right. And you still can’t get the top of the line model one delivered anyway, only the junk base model and even then probably take over a year to get it if you ordered today. I wanted a fully decked out cyber truck in 2020 before inflation caused all the prices to skyrocket. But reality was not kind to this idea. And now the competition is putting out comparable e-Trucks that you can actually buy today or at least in 2024.
The cyber truck looks cool, but it’s vapor ware. And if you could buy one it would be a waste of money. A regular gas powered f-150 or Silverado would be much less expensive to own over the next 10-15 years. Plus the ICE F-150 will be 10x more likely to be still on the road 200,000 miles or 20 years later, especially in the cold weather.
Your fun little electro mobile might be great for commuting in sunny Southern CA but the older and colder it gets, the less desirable it would be to the people I know who are usually 30-60 minute commuters when the weather is nice and like to pull boats, RV’s and go on longer road trips.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/29/23979850/tesla-cybertruck-delivery-design-production-problems-delay
26
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:08am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 14, 11:08am
WookieMan says
It already is, the governments are talking of taxing EV by mileage because they can’t tax the gas but they still wear out the roads. Tires wear out faster due to high rates of acceleration. Plus upfront cost is way more than just buying a nice used vehicle that meets your needs and runs on gasoline. Plus using a used vehicle is the ultimate in recycling, preventing another car from going to the junkyard.
ultimately the cost will be more than gas.
It already is, the governments are talking of taxing EV by mileage because they can’t tax the gas but they still wear out the roads. Tires wear out faster due to high rates of acceleration. Plus upfront cost is way more than just buying a nice used vehicle that meets your needs and runs on gasoline. Plus using a used vehicle is the ultimate in recycling, preventing another car from going to the junkyard.
27
AD
2023 Dec 14, 11:55am
AD
2023 Dec 14, 11:55am
Tenpoundbass says
I looked into the Chevy EV Bolt which is a low price MSRP of around $28,000 before any state and federal tax credit.
It can charge on a 110 Volt outlet but it only charges about 4 miles per hour.
Seems like its OK for a commuter and local travel car. I think its average range is around 270 miles. It has an 8 yr , 100,000 mile warranty on its batteries.
The slow charge rate is risk mitigation as far as allowing Chevy to warranty up to 100,000 miles, and assume about 13,000 miles per year.
.
And the fact that people realize they have to spend 20 to 40 thousand dollar just to install an EV charger at their home, is a real buzzkill.
I looked into the Chevy EV Bolt which is a low price MSRP of around $28,000 before any state and federal tax credit.
It can charge on a 110 Volt outlet but it only charges about 4 miles per hour.
Seems like its OK for a commuter and local travel car. I think its average range is around 270 miles. It has an 8 yr , 100,000 mile warranty on its batteries.
The slow charge rate is risk mitigation as far as allowing Chevy to warranty up to 100,000 miles, and assume about 13,000 miles per year.
.
28
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:30pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:30pm
PeopleUnited says
Factor in there will be no used EV car market either. Battery is near the end of life, ain't nobody touching it. Nobody would be able to junk it. It's worth nothing altogether.
I don't mind Elon and the idea, but it's not sustainable long term. It's math. He knows it. He can borrow upwards of 80% of his shares value tax free and owe nothing if it goes to zero. He can use the borrowed money to pay the loan back and whatever else he wants to buy.
People need to understand how rich people live. They don't "make" money. Musk gives no shits about the environment. None. His cars are worse for the environment. Again as a Monday morning quarterback I actually don't dislike the guy, but I know what he's doing. Make an average looking golf cart, get government subsidies, go public, borrow against his shares and run. The guy can borrow $1B and pay his debt service fee/interest for life and still be left with billions. He's not bad for this, but this is what he's doing. He lies when he says he pays income taxes. That would be fucking stupid for someone in his position.
Plus using a used vehicle is the ultimate in recycling, preventing another car from going to the junkyard.
Factor in there will be no used EV car market either. Battery is near the end of life, ain't nobody touching it. Nobody would be able to junk it. It's worth nothing altogether.
I don't mind Elon and the idea, but it's not sustainable long term. It's math. He knows it. He can borrow upwards of 80% of his shares value tax free and owe nothing if it goes to zero. He can use the borrowed money to pay the loan back and whatever else he wants to buy.
People need to understand how rich people live. They don't "make" money. Musk gives no shits about the environment. None. His cars are worse for the environment. Again as a Monday morning quarterback I actually don't dislike the guy, but I know what he's doing. Make an average looking golf cart, get government subsidies, go public, borrow against his shares and run. The guy can borrow $1B and pay his debt service fee/interest for life and still be left with billions. He's not bad for this, but this is what he's doing. He lies when he says he pays income taxes. That would be fucking stupid for someone in his position.
29
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 12:49pm
WookieMan says
I plan on going solar with a Tesla Powerwall now that San Diego Gas & Electric allows it to be used as a "virtual utility" where I can use the energy generated in the peak of the day to fill up my Powerwall battery or my car. Then I can choose to sell back that energy in the batteries to the grid during the most expensive energy time (4-9PM) and get a premium.
My daughter gets her license next week and will be looking for an additional car next year. Will likely get the base Model 3 for the wife and let my daughter take over the Hyundai.
My wife spends about $300/month in gas where I spend less than $40 on electricity driving more miles.
socal2 says
Not enough to offset the significant savings I get every month on gas in California.
Enjoy it now. You're naive to think it will last for long. They will charge higher rates for EV owners at some point. It's coming. We don't have the grid and they can't go to non-EV owners to cover your bill. Electric will be more expensive than gas for EV's and probably in the near future.
I plan on going solar with a Tesla Powerwall now that San Diego Gas & Electric allows it to be used as a "virtual utility" where I can use the energy generated in the peak of the day to fill up my Powerwall battery or my car. Then I can choose to sell back that energy in the batteries to the grid during the most expensive energy time (4-9PM) and get a premium.
My daughter gets her license next week and will be looking for an additional car next year. Will likely get the base Model 3 for the wife and let my daughter take over the Hyundai.
My wife spends about $300/month in gas where I spend less than $40 on electricity driving more miles.
30
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:58pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 12:58pm
socal2 says
Good for you. Battery storage is more feasible than the car itself for the cost. It will 100% be more expensive to charge an EV than fuel up at your local gas station in 3-5 minutes in about 2-4 years.
I'm on board for solar and battery storage. Electric cars are simply not the future. Utilities will just charge you more. The biggest and hardest question is how will utilities maintain their grid with double or triple demand? They can't. Oil infrastructure is in place. Price per barrel. Electric rates can literally be flipped overnight. You have an EV? Not paying for road maintenance? Not paying MFT? Register your car? Cool, you're electric rate just double. Or you are required to install a separate meter for your car.
It's coming dude. Enjoy it now. It WILL not be cheaper in the future. If anything more expensive at the cost of the environment. Let's see those coal plants come back online while the greenies won't build new nukes.
I plan on going solar with a Tesla Powerwall now that San Diego Gas & Electric allows it to be used as a "virtual utility" where I can use the energy generated in the peak of the day to fill up my Powerwall battery or my car.
Good for you. Battery storage is more feasible than the car itself for the cost. It will 100% be more expensive to charge an EV than fuel up at your local gas station in 3-5 minutes in about 2-4 years.
I'm on board for solar and battery storage. Electric cars are simply not the future. Utilities will just charge you more. The biggest and hardest question is how will utilities maintain their grid with double or triple demand? They can't. Oil infrastructure is in place. Price per barrel. Electric rates can literally be flipped overnight. You have an EV? Not paying for road maintenance? Not paying MFT? Register your car? Cool, you're electric rate just double. Or you are required to install a separate meter for your car.
It's coming dude. Enjoy it now. It WILL not be cheaper in the future. If anything more expensive at the cost of the environment. Let's see those coal plants come back online while the greenies won't build new nukes.
31
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 1:10pm
WookieMan says
One of my clients has a 10 year old Model S with over 120,000 miles and less than 10% battery degradation. And this is one of the earlier Tesla's that doesn't have the improved battery chemistry and improved thermal management system.
These batteries will last over 1 million miles. There are millions of Teslas on the roads now and very little reports of battery degradation or failure. The seats and interior will wear out before the batteries.
And the used battery value will be massive when it comes time to junk a car as they can recycle 100% of the valuable minerals like Cobalt and Nickel. In fact, it is easier and cheaper to recycle and process existing batteries then it is to mine new material. They say it is like purifying already purified water. It gets easier and cleaner each time. The recycling industry is growing and will be huge. One of Tesla's founders (JB Straubel) is leading the way developing this industry with his new company Redwood Materials.
Within 50 years, we will be in closed loop system where we have enough batteries produced we won't need to mine new material as we can keep recycling and reusing the precious and expensive minerals in expensive batteries.
Factor in there will be no used EV car market either. Battery is near the end of life, ain't nobody touching it. Nobody would be able to junk it. It's worth nothing altogether.
One of my clients has a 10 year old Model S with over 120,000 miles and less than 10% battery degradation. And this is one of the earlier Tesla's that doesn't have the improved battery chemistry and improved thermal management system.
These batteries will last over 1 million miles. There are millions of Teslas on the roads now and very little reports of battery degradation or failure. The seats and interior will wear out before the batteries.
And the used battery value will be massive when it comes time to junk a car as they can recycle 100% of the valuable minerals like Cobalt and Nickel. In fact, it is easier and cheaper to recycle and process existing batteries then it is to mine new material. They say it is like purifying already purified water. It gets easier and cleaner each time. The recycling industry is growing and will be huge. One of Tesla's founders (JB Straubel) is leading the way developing this industry with his new company Redwood Materials.
Within 50 years, we will be in closed loop system where we have enough batteries produced we won't need to mine new material as we can keep recycling and reusing the precious and expensive minerals in expensive batteries.
32
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 1:14pm
WookieMan says
We need to build new nuke plants and install more solar WITH battery backups like I mentioned with the Virtual Power Plant system with the Tesla Power Wall. Solar is great during the day when the sun is high and demand is low. The battery helps level out demand at night.
Leftist environmental retards are finally coming around to nukes with the first new US plant going on line this year.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57280
The biggest and hardest question is how will utilities maintain their grid with double or triple demand?
We need to build new nuke plants and install more solar WITH battery backups like I mentioned with the Virtual Power Plant system with the Tesla Power Wall. Solar is great during the day when the sun is high and demand is low. The battery helps level out demand at night.
Leftist environmental retards are finally coming around to nukes with the first new US plant going on line this year.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=57280
33
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 2:32pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 14, 2:32pm
socal2 says
The Georgia plant took well over a decade dude. There is nothing in the pipeline currently for nukes. How the fuck are we going to double EV's? And we're only talking 5-6% of car production. We've taken coal off the grid as much as possible. Where if the flying fuck is this electric coming from? Your bank account. It will cost more for electric 100%.
Fine throw in a solar panel and battery storage. If you have $50k laying around. Electric rates are going to go through the roof. The people that don't have them, 95% of people, ain't gonna deal with it. Your electric rate wil easily 4X in the next 5 years to cover more electric generation, grid maintenance, and MFT or I guess MET (Motor electric tax).
And at the end of the day EV's are worse for the environment. That's indisputable.
socal2 says
You don't golf, do you? We've had EV's for decades. What do golf course pick 9 out of 10 times? Gas golf carts. The economic model has been known for decades. I know the owner of a golf cart dealership. EV's are not feasible long term. Let me know when Ford, Toyota, Chevy, etc stop making trucks and SUV's without V-8 engines. There's a reason. And there's a reason they're still in business. They're playing the greenie game to not lose market share. Not because they believe in EV's. That and getting their stock to hit MPG governmental requirements.
Enjoy Tesla or whatever. At the end of the day these cars won't be around in 10-15 years. Might be something new, but it's not the current configuration. You cannot recycle the batteries either. Otherwise why wouldn't they last forever? It's a fucking con. So they recycle and make a new battery that did the same thing the old one did? Bull shit. And then why did I pay so much for the first one? That market makes zero sense at all. If that's the case, as an early adaptor you're getting raped financially. Battery prices will plummet as they get recycled. A model 3 will go down to $10k because there's not much to it. That's "IF" batteries can be recycled. They can't.
Leftist environmental retards are finally coming around to nukes with the first new US plant going on line this year.
The Georgia plant took well over a decade dude. There is nothing in the pipeline currently for nukes. How the fuck are we going to double EV's? And we're only talking 5-6% of car production. We've taken coal off the grid as much as possible. Where if the flying fuck is this electric coming from? Your bank account. It will cost more for electric 100%.
Fine throw in a solar panel and battery storage. If you have $50k laying around. Electric rates are going to go through the roof. The people that don't have them, 95% of people, ain't gonna deal with it. Your electric rate wil easily 4X in the next 5 years to cover more electric generation, grid maintenance, and MFT or I guess MET (Motor electric tax).
And at the end of the day EV's are worse for the environment. That's indisputable.
socal2 says
Within 50 years, we will be in closed loop system where we have enough batteries produced we won't need to mine new material as we can keep recycling and reusing the precious and expensive minerals in expensive batteries.
You don't golf, do you? We've had EV's for decades. What do golf course pick 9 out of 10 times? Gas golf carts. The economic model has been known for decades. I know the owner of a golf cart dealership. EV's are not feasible long term. Let me know when Ford, Toyota, Chevy, etc stop making trucks and SUV's without V-8 engines. There's a reason. And there's a reason they're still in business. They're playing the greenie game to not lose market share. Not because they believe in EV's. That and getting their stock to hit MPG governmental requirements.
Enjoy Tesla or whatever. At the end of the day these cars won't be around in 10-15 years. Might be something new, but it's not the current configuration. You cannot recycle the batteries either. Otherwise why wouldn't they last forever? It's a fucking con. So they recycle and make a new battery that did the same thing the old one did? Bull shit. And then why did I pay so much for the first one? That market makes zero sense at all. If that's the case, as an early adaptor you're getting raped financially. Battery prices will plummet as they get recycled. A model 3 will go down to $10k because there's not much to it. That's "IF" batteries can be recycled. They can't.
34
yawaraf
2023 Dec 14, 2:47pm
WookieMan says
They separate and purify the chemical elements in the battery cells. It's a process similar to extracting minerals from mined ore.
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/solutions/
You cannot recycle the batteries either.
They separate and purify the chemical elements in the battery cells. It's a process similar to extracting minerals from mined ore.
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/solutions/
35
socal2
2023 Dec 14, 4:06pm
WookieMan says
Not even remotely the same thing since Golf Cart batteries have no thermal management. Tesla's success is in their chemistry and keeping their batteries at ideal temperatures so not to degrade the cathodes to prolong the battery's life.
The Model S has been out for over a decade. Where are all the stories about Tesla's turning to junk?WookieMan says
Mainly due to regulatory hurdles. The Senate passed a bill this year to make licensing new plants easier. This one nuke plant will provide more energy than thousands of windmills and solar panels we have littered all over our country.
https://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2023/7/senate-passes-bipartisan-nuclear-energy-bill-from-capito-carper-whitehouse
WookieMan says
Most of these OEM's will be out of business within a decade with their massive debt, pension liabilities, lazy union workforces and crappy cars. Tesla is already clobbering the other OEM's on profit margin despite having only a fraction of the volume and having just completed building 3 state of the art new factories with no CAPEX debt. Tesla is killing them on their ICE cars and the other OEM's are losing tons of money on every EV they make. That is why many have pulled back on EV's because they can't make a good EV comparable to Tesla without losing money. They wasted the last decade building out more ICE plants and not investing in the future like Tesla did.
There is no catching up to Tesla. This doesn't even count Tesla's massive advantage and head start on Full Self Driving, Battery production, robotics, software etc.
Tesla earns 8 times more profit than Toyota per car (Tesla margins have come down since last year - but they are still beating everyone else)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-earns-8-times-more-profit-than-Toyota-per-car
You don't golf, do you? We've had EV's for decades. What do golf course pick 9 out of 10 times? Gas golf carts. The economic model has been known for decades
Not even remotely the same thing since Golf Cart batteries have no thermal management. Tesla's success is in their chemistry and keeping their batteries at ideal temperatures so not to degrade the cathodes to prolong the battery's life.
The Model S has been out for over a decade. Where are all the stories about Tesla's turning to junk?WookieMan says
The Georgia plant took well over a decade dude.
Mainly due to regulatory hurdles. The Senate passed a bill this year to make licensing new plants easier. This one nuke plant will provide more energy than thousands of windmills and solar panels we have littered all over our country.
https://www.epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2023/7/senate-passes-bipartisan-nuclear-energy-bill-from-capito-carper-whitehouse
WookieMan says
Let me know when Ford, Toyota, Chevy, etc stop making trucks and SUV's without V-8 engines. There's a reason. And there's a reason they're still in business.
Most of these OEM's will be out of business within a decade with their massive debt, pension liabilities, lazy union workforces and crappy cars. Tesla is already clobbering the other OEM's on profit margin despite having only a fraction of the volume and having just completed building 3 state of the art new factories with no CAPEX debt. Tesla is killing them on their ICE cars and the other OEM's are losing tons of money on every EV they make. That is why many have pulled back on EV's because they can't make a good EV comparable to Tesla without losing money. They wasted the last decade building out more ICE plants and not investing in the future like Tesla did.
There is no catching up to Tesla. This doesn't even count Tesla's massive advantage and head start on Full Self Driving, Battery production, robotics, software etc.
Tesla earns 8 times more profit than Toyota per car (Tesla margins have come down since last year - but they are still beating everyone else)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-earns-8-times-more-profit-than-Toyota-per-car
36
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 5:12am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 5:12am
socal2 says
We're in agreement that renewables are mostly useless outside of peak demand when the sun is shining and wind blowing. And yes there were plenty of regulatory hurdles for no reason when we have 50 year old nukes still providing power and it took 40 years to put 2 measly reactors online in Georgia.
My point was and still is, we won't have the grid and capacity for EV's if we just go from 3% to 6% EV's on the road. Someone will have to pay for this. A nuke plant takes a decade at this point and probably longer. I'm not paying higher electric rates when I can fuel my paid off, big ass, V-8 Armada for $150/mo and write it off. My big ass car is 100% cheaper than an EV. Upfront cost. Everything. I also value time. Even a super charger I'm blowing 20 minutes at a stop. Combine my wife and I we're wasting about $120-150 in time to sit there and watch a car charge.
I predict by the summer of 2025 or '26 that EV owners will have to pay extra for their cars to be charged at home. There's no way around this. It will be comparable to gas if not more expensive. And it will likely involve bringing coal power plants back on because nukes in any meaningful way will take 15-20 years to come online.
EV MFT's are coming for sure at minimum. Layer on grid taxes if an EV is registered to your home and it's going to be more expensive than gas. And as more people get EV's gas prices drop. You're shooting yourself in the foot, you just haven't pulled the trigger yet. EV's will 100% be more costly than ICE vehicles in our lifetime without massive grid expansion. Which costs a shit load of money.
Mainly due to regulatory hurdles. The Senate passed a bill this year to make licensing new plants easier. This one nuke plant will provide more energy than thousands of windmills and solar panels we have littered all over our country.
We're in agreement that renewables are mostly useless outside of peak demand when the sun is shining and wind blowing. And yes there were plenty of regulatory hurdles for no reason when we have 50 year old nukes still providing power and it took 40 years to put 2 measly reactors online in Georgia.
My point was and still is, we won't have the grid and capacity for EV's if we just go from 3% to 6% EV's on the road. Someone will have to pay for this. A nuke plant takes a decade at this point and probably longer. I'm not paying higher electric rates when I can fuel my paid off, big ass, V-8 Armada for $150/mo and write it off. My big ass car is 100% cheaper than an EV. Upfront cost. Everything. I also value time. Even a super charger I'm blowing 20 minutes at a stop. Combine my wife and I we're wasting about $120-150 in time to sit there and watch a car charge.
I predict by the summer of 2025 or '26 that EV owners will have to pay extra for their cars to be charged at home. There's no way around this. It will be comparable to gas if not more expensive. And it will likely involve bringing coal power plants back on because nukes in any meaningful way will take 15-20 years to come online.
EV MFT's are coming for sure at minimum. Layer on grid taxes if an EV is registered to your home and it's going to be more expensive than gas. And as more people get EV's gas prices drop. You're shooting yourself in the foot, you just haven't pulled the trigger yet. EV's will 100% be more costly than ICE vehicles in our lifetime without massive grid expansion. Which costs a shit load of money.
37
GNL
2023 Dec 15, 5:57am
GNL
2023 Dec 15, 5:57am
True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon of gas, per new report
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.
38
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 6:11am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 15, 6:11am
GNL says
That's still low though. The government will get their cut to maintain roads. That's my wife's line of work. It's coming. EV's will be as much or more per mile than ICE cars. Hybrids are and will be the future IF your concern is "green" energy. I'm sticking to ICE for the foreseeable future.
Gas taxes have been around for damn near a century. There will be a tax on your electric utility for infrastructure and road maintenance at some point. It's not an if, it's a when. And at that time be ready to short Tesla when people find out that the cheap "charge" days are over.
The problem Tesla has is they don't have an ICE model of anything. Ford, Toyota, GMC, Honda, etc. all have the flexibility to move from ICE to EV and still make money. As I've said I have no issue with Musk or Tesla, but this is about market dynamics. We don't have the grid. It's not green remotely. It's a time suck with charging if you drive a lot, which is more money on an already expensive car. I've done the calculations for my family. A Tesla that could fit us all is easily 2X what an ICE full sized SUV would be. Oil is oil. It doesn't jump that much. Electric can and will double and triple in due time. Trust me. I know the people that make and are in charge of MFT laws. You WILL pay for the roads. Give it a couple years.
True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon of gas, per new report
That's still low though. The government will get their cut to maintain roads. That's my wife's line of work. It's coming. EV's will be as much or more per mile than ICE cars. Hybrids are and will be the future IF your concern is "green" energy. I'm sticking to ICE for the foreseeable future.
Gas taxes have been around for damn near a century. There will be a tax on your electric utility for infrastructure and road maintenance at some point. It's not an if, it's a when. And at that time be ready to short Tesla when people find out that the cheap "charge" days are over.
The problem Tesla has is they don't have an ICE model of anything. Ford, Toyota, GMC, Honda, etc. all have the flexibility to move from ICE to EV and still make money. As I've said I have no issue with Musk or Tesla, but this is about market dynamics. We don't have the grid. It's not green remotely. It's a time suck with charging if you drive a lot, which is more money on an already expensive car. I've done the calculations for my family. A Tesla that could fit us all is easily 2X what an ICE full sized SUV would be. Oil is oil. It doesn't jump that much. Electric can and will double and triple in due time. Trust me. I know the people that make and are in charge of MFT laws. You WILL pay for the roads. Give it a couple years.
39
komputodo
2023 Dec 17, 1:24pm
komputodo
2023 Dec 17, 1:24pm
Tenpoundbass says
To be fair, the shrimp were stringy.
That Jerry Seinfeld is a baaaad MAN, verdy BAD!
To be fair, the shrimp were stringy.
40
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 2:43pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 2:43pm
Someone mentioned to short Tesla in a couple years vs someone who has the foresight and been investing in it for a decade and growing his accounts to almost $25M and continuing to believe Tesla will become even more valuable in the future. If we have to take advice on this subject, who should we listen to?
https://x.com/shrimpteslalong/status/1478174482921517058?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
https://x.com/shrimpteslalong/status/1478174482921517058?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
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Then without thinking, all of the other important decision morons, jumped on board and said "Not only that, but let's make gas cars so expensive nobody can afford them!"
Well now there's this.
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/12/11/theyre-stacking-up/
I think Joe Biden giving 6 billion to build EV charging stations, then did dickall with those tax dollars. And the fact that people realize they have to spend 20 to 40 thousand dollar just to install an EV charger at their home, is a real buzzkill. No the EV chargers themselves don't cost 40K to install. But most people's house electric panel is already maxed out, and the Electric company is only giving them 200amp service. Many houses will need the Electric company install a bigger amperage meter box and run a thicker wire. Then from there have to wire in subpanels, or replace the inside main breaker panel.
Even many companies had to upgrade their electric so their CEOs and other executives could have a charger installed in their parking spots.
Combine that with the resent press, that people are having a hard time finding chargers when they venture outside of their Nerdiehood, where there's chargers, to areas where there are none. They can't make long trips, because of the lack of charging stations in between. But not only that even if there are chargers in between. It turns out with so many EVs on the road, you can expect a two hour wait, to wait your turn for the charger.
That Jerry Seinfeld is a baaaad MAN, verdy BAD!