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Lower Rents


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2008 Jan 17, 12:12am   29,027 views  318 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (58)   💰tip   ignore  

for rent

Given the record level of empty housing, rents seem to be falling in most parts of the country.

But my own rent went up for the first time in 5 years recently. Though it's still lower than it was when I first moved in during the dot-com bubble. I got a good rent reduction after the crash.

Rents should respond basically to employment and salary levels, but I don't see employment or salaries improving much around me in the SF Bay Area.

Any idea what's going on? Sometimes I suspect that the press writes about rising rent, and then landlords actually do raise it just because they think they can.

Patrick

#housing

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50   lunarpark   2008 Jan 17, 7:58am  

I just renewed my lease today - $50 increase (private owner).

51   GammaRaze   2008 Jan 17, 8:01am  

My rent went up by about 5% last June and I suspect it will happen again. One reason is that all renters are captive in the sense that moving takes a lot of time and energy. We will compare the cost/hardship of moving versus the increase and conclude that it is better to stay put.

The largest rent increase I have had was in 2000 when the rent went up (In Santa Clara) from 1725 to 2100 a month! After we signed a one-year lease, they agreed to lower it to 19-something.

52   anonymous   2008 Jan 17, 8:08am  

Rent were going up 20% when I left Sunnyvale in mid-2007. People are voting with their feet, and leaving the place.

53   skibum   2008 Jan 17, 8:08am  

As netdance says, discussion about current or recent rent hikes is moot. Once the recession gets really going, we certainly won't be talking about rent increases for a while.

Do you think during a recession Americans are going to continue to buy useless and/or overpriced electronic crap (think iphone, new laptops every couple of years, other useless gadgets)? If the recession turns global, ditto for the rest of the world. And do you think corporate America will continue to pump money into "web advertising" at the same rate? And do you think VC's will want to keep wasting their cash on useless "me too" "Web 2.0" BS? I suspect not...

54   Peter P   2008 Jan 17, 8:15am  

But if the recession ruins people's lives, they can only turn to Second Life. :roll:

55   lunarpark   2008 Jan 17, 8:22am  

My friend just started working at Second Life. I went to their holiday party last weekend (open bar, how could I say no?).

56   Peter P   2008 Jan 17, 8:24am  

I went to their holiday party last weekend (open bar, how could I say no?).

Was the party real or virtual?

57   lunarpark   2008 Jan 17, 8:25am  

LOL, it was real. But their meetings are in virtual reality.

58   Randy H   2008 Jan 17, 8:27am  

Your friend has my condolences, lunar. Linden recently ousted their CTO -- if you could ever really call him that. Well, he did help to create an architecture where it takes about 1 server to support every 30 players for a mediocre graphical experience and serious time-lag issues, and perhaps the singularly worst scripting language ever dreamed up.

59   Peter P   2008 Jan 17, 8:32am  

Randy, are you not afraid of the avatar's wrath? :)

60   lunarpark   2008 Jan 17, 8:35am  

Randy, interesting. My friend says they are hiring like crazy right now.

I have had negative feelings about Second Life ever since I read about your experience.

61   StuckInBA   2008 Jan 17, 8:50am  

Maybe they are onto SecondLife 2.0.

If that sounds as a weird way to name something, remember there was J2EE 1.4 (Java 2 Enterprise Edition version 1.4).

62   renter_paloalto   2008 Jan 17, 9:09am  

Here is my rental history:

2004: $2900
2005: $2900
2006: $3100
mid 2007: $3900 (! I got upset at that point, signed a short lease, started to look)
2008: $3800 (moved to a nicer house - old house lying empty - which feels good!)

My resolution for 2008? Either rents fall substantially, or else I get the hell out of this area. I am preparing for the latter.

63   revengeofaone   2008 Jan 17, 9:21am  

what's going on is simple:

you are asking why your rent increased but the average went down...

the sample size of your observation: n=1

even if you polled all your friends your observation has inadequate power to evaluate the rents in the area...

rent is throwing money down the toilet

buy now before too late

just kidding about last 2 statements...are you paying attention!

64   EBGuy   2008 Jan 17, 9:29am  

Rents are rising, or so they say...
Average asking rates for apartments in the nine-county Bay Area reached $1,562 during the fourth quarter, up 9.4 percent from a year ago, according to a report released today by Novato research firm RealFacts. Prices are up 16.3 percent from four years ago.

65   Peter P   2008 Jan 17, 9:50am  

or so they say…

Buy now or forever be a jealous bitter renter! :twisted:

66   Malcolm   2008 Jan 17, 9:57am  

Just another observation for people saying their rents didn't go down with the average in their area. The average includes new rental leases, I would not just sit back and expect an nice letter saying your rent is going down, on average means you should be able to open the paper and find a comparable house for less. Then you can try to negotiate it with your landlord if you have a lease coming due.

67   anonymous   2008 Jan 17, 10:36am  

Ha it was about 1.5 years between laptops for me! And now Apple's biting the bullet because I'm just going to use this one until it's dead then use some thrift store special computer..... no more new lappys for me!

And as for 2nd life, I'm enjoying that right now. In this Life 2.0 I have time to learn the trumpet, and I just got a cool little cornet, made somewhere in the 1940s, today. Hopefully fairly soon I'll be playing Real Life (tm) I'll be the avatar playing trumpet or cornet downtown around Whiskey Row and hangin' at Cuppers.

68   PermaRenter   2008 Jan 17, 11:53am  

Did you watch SICKO. There is a scene like this news item. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Paraplegic man dumped in LA gutter sues hospital
Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:52pm EST
By Jill Serjeant

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A mentally ill paraplegic man filed a lawsuit on Thursday against a hospital that dumped him in a gutter on Los Angeles' "Skid Row" -- a case that highlighted the plight of the city's vast homeless population.

Gabino Olvera, 42, sued the Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center for negligence after it discharged him in February 2007, took him across town in a van and left him in a soiled hospital gown without a wheelchair in the heart of the city's homeless area.

Witnesses who came to Olvera's aid said they saw him dragging himself on the ground with hospital papers and documents clenched in his teeth while the driver sat in her van and applied makeup before driving off.

The incident was captured by security cameras at a nearby homeless shelter.

Hernan Vera, a lawyer with Public Counsel, which helped bring the lawsuit on behalf on Olvera, called it "the most obscene and callous example of this practice that we have seen."

The lawsuit was filed in Los Angeles Superior Court and seeks unspecified damages.

Hollywood Presbyterian said in a statement it had thoroughly reviewed its patient discharge policies to ensure nothing of the sort ever happened again.

The hospital added it had held extensive talks with Olvera's lawyers and remained optimistic about reaching a satisfactory out-of-court settlement.

The Olvera case was one of about 50 reported incidents in the past 12 months of sick, confused and homeless patients being left by ambulances in the 50-block area of downtown Los Angeles thought to have the highest concentration of homeless people in the United States.

Estimates of the number of homeless in the United States ranges from 500,000 to more than a million.

In Los Angeles, an estimated 12,000 people, many of them mentally ill or addicted to drugs and alcohol, live and sleep on the streets of the area known as Skid Row.

Vera called Los Angeles "ground zero in the fight against unlawful dumping of homeless patients by hospitals."

Lawyers for Olvera said one of the goals of the lawsuit was to force local hospitals to change their practices.

In May, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals, the country's largest nonprofit health-care provider, settled a lawsuit involving the dumping of another patient by agreeing to find shelter places for all patients it discharges in Los Angeles.

Kaiser also agreed to improve discharge procedures and to contribute $500,000 to homeless services on Skid Row.

69   SP   2008 Jan 17, 11:56am  

PAR said:
We have also been trying to fill about six open headcount spots since August and four of them remain open.

Do you work at a startup? Because I have heard from several people who are specifically looking for a NON startup employer.

70   Malcolm   2008 Jan 17, 12:00pm  

PermaRenter, I feel a violent rage building when I read stories like that.

71   PermaRenter   2008 Jan 17, 12:02pm  

>> Kaiser Foundation Hospitals, the country’s largest nonprofit health-care provider

If Kaiser is non profit, why it behaves like this. Is this because executives can take home fat pay by keeping cost low. I would like to understand Kaiser in more detail -- can any insider help?

72   Randy H   2008 Jan 17, 12:03pm  

I bought a refurbished, vintage 1911 concert tuba a couple years ago at my favorite instrument store in Oakland. It only works in life v1.0 though, and the 4th key is a bit sticky.

73   skibum   2008 Jan 17, 12:09pm  

If Kaiser is non profit, why it behaves like this. Is this because executives can take home fat pay by keeping cost low. I would like to understand Kaiser in more detail — can any insider help?

In short, yes. Kaiser has always done things on the cheap. Their managers and MDs are incentivised to keep costs low. It's okay for some issues, IMO, like using generic drugs that are not only cheaper but have longer proven track records. But this system fails for other issues, like the homeless patient dumps in Skid Row. This story has been playing out for a couple of years now, BTW.

Kaiser's premiums are usually around 3-5x cheaper than other plans, but you get what you pay for.

74   Randy H   2008 Jan 17, 12:14pm  

My rent went up over the past couple years, but SFH rents here in Marin have definitely softened recently. 6 months ago all you'd see in CL was an occasional 3+BR house for between $3K-$4K/mo., and then a whole bunch for $7.5K-$8.5K/mo., right about mortgage-coverage level for recent buyers.

Now most all the homes are in the $3K range, and the "cover my mortgage please" people don't even bother. There are even occasional 5BR or nice 4BR homes under $4K, which I haven't seen the entire time since living here until now.

Hey, the more rents come down the cheaper houses have to get before I buy one. Or, they can just keep paying me to rent...

75   danville woman   2008 Jan 17, 12:14pm  

I am a nurse practitioner and have worked at Kaiser in various departments on and off for the last 30 years . I have worked at Kaiser in Oakland, Pleasanton and Walnut Creek. In my personal experience, it is a very ethical organization.

76   SP   2008 Jan 17, 12:22pm  

He cited the tech sector’s strength as a key factor contributing to the Bay Area’s 1.9 percent payroll employment growth

I am suspicious of the "tech" part - a lot of the crap that passes for tech these days is just some fancy-pants consumer-discretionary item with a chip.

Fortunes of companies in this sector ("Yes, I am looking at _you_, AAPL") will behave more like consumer product companies than like tech companies, so evaluating them as techs is somewhat misleading.

77   SP   2008 Jan 17, 12:26pm  

StuckInBA Says:
What ???? No comment on the DQ report ?

There was, on the _previous_ thread. Recycled here...

skibum Says:
I like their headline: “Bay Area home sales drag along bottom”

At least another quarter of dragging along the bottom, then a couple of quarters of sliding down the back of the thigh, a quarter dragging along the back of the knee, maybe a quick run down the shin, then circle the ankles for another quarter.

Let me know when it is tickling the sole, I may start looking at a house to buy.

78   Randy H   2008 Jan 17, 12:30pm  

The "tech sector" as a financial analyst target has always been a broad category comprising everything from hardware, software, overlap with chips, overlap with telecom, and overlap with "techy" appliances like gaming consoles. SAP and Oracle have as much in common with EA and Vivendi as Apple has in common with Google. They're called "techs" because they aren't car companies, oil drillers, drug producers, or the makers of the Swiffer.

79   surfer-x   2008 Jan 17, 12:43pm  

So we were merrily watching our mid century Ventura stucco masterpiece drop every so nicely, about 5-10K a month and then WHAMO our house is "zestimated" at 50K more than we bought it for. Shit, I need this technology because I have a whole lot of history i would like to revise.

80   surfer-x   2008 Jan 17, 12:43pm  

danville woman, Kaiser rocks!

81   losaltosrenter   2008 Jan 17, 12:50pm  

Even at $3K plus, rents in the fortress are between 2 and 2.5% of asset value which is something like 200-250 bps below the historical average. Translation: rents can rise a long way before it makes much economic sense to buy.

Granted, in absolute terms it's hard to stomach paying that kind of rent - enough to comfortably cover the mortgage, property tax impound and maintenance on a pretty nice house in many, many parts of the country. Nonetheless, if you're here you've already made that choice...

The problem, of course, is that people don't make the buy decision dispassionately on the numbers - if they did, prices should plummet around here where people pay a massive premium to "own" that can't be justified (rationally) in an environment where appreciation is anything less than constant double digits.

82   goober   2008 Jan 17, 12:55pm  

Was it my schizophrenia or did Warren Buffett actually say the housing troubles won't affect the broader economy......just wondering.....

83   OO   2008 Jan 17, 1:05pm  

The bottom line is, if you can afford it, go with PPO.

In fact, the best doctors of the Bay Area do not even accept any insurance. They only take cash. That's my experience anyway, since we hooked up with a very good doctor whom we used to refer to all other practices (yeah, we are using him as the human search engine). Out of say, 10 recommendations he made, 6 of them accept cash only and accept no new patients, 4 of them on Blue Shield or Blue Cross PPO, and hesitate to take on new patients without strong referral from doctors they know well. We have to drop names to get on the patient list.

84   Malcolm   2008 Jan 17, 1:29pm  

That's why I am a huge believer in MSAs with a catastrophic policy. I don't understand why people pay a bunch of money in insurance, go through paperwork hassles just so that they can have a cheap office visit. Just save the money, pay the office visit in cash and keep the insurance for something big, this mentality of not wanting to pay for something is really irritating.

85   Peter P   2008 Jan 17, 1:41pm  

Just save the money, pay the office visit in cash and keep the insurance for something big, this mentality of not wanting to pay for something is really irritating.

I totally agree.

Unless we allow Free Market to bring down health care costs we will all pay dearly in the future.

I laud Bush's veto of the children's insurance bill. If we allow special interest groups (Medicare is another example) separate access to health care, we will never have a reasonable and efficient system.

86   FormerAptBroker   2008 Jan 17, 1:59pm  

Randy H Says:

> My rent went up over the past couple years, but SFH
> rents here in Marin have definitely softened recently.
> 6 months ago all you’d see in CL was an occasional
> 3+BR house for between $3K-$4K/mo., and then a
> whole bunch for $7.5K-$8.5K/mo., right about
> mortgage-coverage level for recent buyers.

I don’t know if Randy has noticed it in Marin, but many of the apartment and rental home owners I know (even my parents the cheapest people in the world) have realized that spending $10K on a unit (granite counter tops and new stainless steel appliances) in an apartment will often bring in an extra $200 a month and spending $20K on a rental home will often bring in an extra $500 a month (a much better return than we are getting from money markets and CDs that are mostly below 5% these days). The owners of Parkmerced (the biggest apartment in SF) have invested over $60 million (more than $15K a unit) over the past couple years to improve the property.

87   skibum   2008 Jan 17, 2:01pm  

Unless we allow Free Market to bring down health care costs we will all pay dearly in the future.

That is only true to a certain extent. To believe that free market forces will bring down health care costs, you have to argue for changing at least two fundamental paradigms in the current US healthcare system: financial incentives for hospitals and physicians, and CYA-based medical practice, which is a direct result of our over-litigious society.

Seeing how patient care is carried out by private practice clinics and hospitals, it's no wonder healthcare costs are huge. I see firsthand private MDs who will perform procedures, order tests, refer to subspecialists for completely unwarranted reasons. Unfortunately, the vast majority of patients don't realize that essentially they've been had by these "doctors." Why does this happen? Because hospital, clinic and physician compensation in most cases is based entirely on how many procedures, tests, consults they can bill. I hate to say this at risk the of sounding xenophobic, but there's a clear trend I've noticed of FMG's (foreign medical grads) being guilty of this bad behavior more so than US trained MDs as a whole. This is in contrast to one cost-containment strategy that does work at Kaiser - their physicians are salaried. Kaiser just goes too much in the opposite direction on occassion.

From a hospital's perspective, they make their money by billing insurance companies (including Medicaire) per procedure/test/consult as well. They recoup their costs handily for buying expensive equipment (the latest surgical tool, the latest MR scanner, etc.) by shoving as many patients through the system as possible. Also, because hospitals are compensated by diagnostic entity, meaning if someone comes in for say, a stroke, they are paid for what insurance thinks that diagnosis should be paid only, no matter how many days the patient is in the hospital. That's a less-publicized but important reason why hospitals are always trying to shove people out the door (see Skid Row reference above).

I won't even get started on the CYA style of practicing medicine we all do now because of fear of litigation. That's a whole other topic.

BTW, for a look at how private hospitals operate, check this out:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xskFo75Wdhs

88   skibum   2008 Jan 17, 2:03pm  

Patrick,
I dunno why, but I have a comment in moderation. Thanks.

89   FormerAptBroker   2008 Jan 17, 2:08pm  

Malcolm Says:

> That’s why I am a huge believer in MSAs with a
> catastrophic policy.

So am I…

> I don’t understand why people pay a bunch of
> money in insurance, go through paperwork hassles
> just so that they can have a cheap office visit.

For the same reason that most Americans pay a bunch of money for new care with warrantees, and go through paperwork hassles just so they can save a few hundred in maintenance and repair costs every year (while the vehicles depreciate by thousands of dollars each years)

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