patrick.net

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/30/nyregion/where-the-one-percent-fit-in-the-hierarchy-of-income.html

bgamall4 says

I am quite sure it is worse than I understand it. You are stupid.

Okay. I just don't see it. Good luck. I wish I could believe some of the worst recent events were hoaxes. I'd actually find that comforting. The government doesn't appear nearly that sophisticated.

FunTime says

Cite your source. I think you're way off. U.S. census numbers put mean incomes(I think that's the measure for the discussion here which is a consideration of how hard it is to become part of the top percentile incomes) at about $60k. I don't see any data suggesting $20k jumps you that far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

I think you are talking about household, whereas I was talking about individual income. HRH makes her money, not counting on her "hot husband."

bgamall4 says

Try millions of dollars.

Well, I got this from a site sympathetic to your position on the Sandy Hook matter:

"The estimated payout was $281,000 paid to each of the victims’ families, who have raised additional funds from their own websites—some of which were apparently advertised on the web in advance of the shooting. At present, all of the victims, both children and adults, have memorial funds that are currently collecting money."

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/01/07/top-ten-reasons-sandy-hook-was-an-elaborate-hoax/

So, not really millions.

bgamall4 says

You are a fool.

Uh, okay. Your great wit, agile mind, and fierce command of the English language will serve you well. Have you ever considered the possibility that EVERYONE else might not be wrong?

turtledove says

"The estimated payout was $281,000 paid to each of the victims’ families, who have raised additional funds from their own websites—some of which were apparently advertised on the web in advance of the shooting.

Wow. Imagine browsing the web, and seeing that your parents have created a website saying you're going to be killed tomorrow and asking strangers to donate money. Do you still have to eat your vegetables?

WOW! The UNtrustworthy are certainly in control of what information is apparent to the people!

Say hey! This was in the Wall Street Journal on March 30, 1999. Note "... how much it will buy."

Holy cow/interesting/compelling ...!

And where is it up to date??? Right here ... see the first chart shown in this thread.
Recent Dow day is Monday, February 10, 2014 __ Level is 101.2

WOW! It is hideous that this is hidden! Is there any such "Homes, Inflation Adjusted"? Yes! This was in the New York Times on August 27, 2006:

And up to date (by me) is here:
http://patrick.net/?p=1219038&c=999083#comment-999083

WOW! The UNtrustworthy are certainly in control of what information is apparent to the people!

And http://patrick.net/?p=1230886

hrhjuliet says

A lot of people in the trades wait at the hall or by the phone. The truth is that it's not all about choice.

I was and am in construction and proud of it. I got laid off in 2009, but rather than sit by the phone, I worked HARD at finding another job. In the end I moved 2500 miles and ended up with a job that paid more, in a less expensive area to live and have moved up in the company since then. What do you do when life turns sour?

This is my second career. At the age of 48 I got laid off from the semi-conductor industry and we were going through a recession (2001). After looking and looking for almost a year, I cashed in my 401K and went back to school. Four years later, I got laid off from the job that I found/struggled for in another recession. That is when the move came about. Had I stayed put and waited, well, that would have been a choice, I don't think I'd be too happy with the results.

hrhjuliet says

Did your parents help you buy a car? Then a leg up. Did your parents or relative help pay for college? Leg up.

Etc, etc, etc, and no, none of those 'leg ups' apply. What DID apply was my raising was in a comfortable middle class house. I had two loving parents, who didn't divorce. I started working (in the berry fields) when I was 8 (during the summer). I carried two paper routes. I washed dishes and bused tables when I was 16, driving the car that I bought with money I earned from my paper routes and mowing lawns. Moved to working as a stocker and checker when I was 18, and on and on and on.

hrhjuliet says

The people living in poverty are not women's studies majors addicts and welfare moms - most of them live on the streets.

And I didn't say they all were. There is no one cause, although it certainly seems (to me) that a disproportional segment have mental, drug or alcohol problems. There are many folks who come out of college with degrees that really don't have much of a career path. There are many who, for whatever reason, refuse to move (physically move locations). Never said I planned or wanted to be part of the 1% but I have and continue to work my rear end off.

One less Realtor in the "business". Oh no, what will we do?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/PRh-fYObmRA

Reality says

I think you are talking about household

Yeah, they're difficult to separate. Don't household studies include single-person households? I understand that they do. The 116 million households suggests they do. This "CPS" data has a note about that which clears up some of my confusion.

Still this definition of income, while it makes sense to most of us, sure leaves a lot of money off the table of comparison. For this to be the most widely cited income data, according to the Wikipedia page, is telling when considering awareness for the big gaps in income near the top percentages. I think this definition would leave out a lot of the income in the top few percentages which would make the averages low.

"The CPS measure of money income is defined as the total pre-tax cash income received by people on a regular basis, excluding certain lump-sum payments and excluding capital gains."

The sad thing here is instead of allowing correction they are encouraging foreign criminals with ill gotten monies to inflate the cost of living here further while the pan national oligarchs ship jobs overseas. not a good formula. its as if the FedGov was playing sim-city as stupidly as possible at the moment.

Mick Russom says

The sad thing here is instead of allowing correction they are encouraging foreign criminals with ill gotten monies to inflate the cost of living here further while the pan national oligarchs ship jobs overseas.

The price appreciations actually enable the landlords to put up with low rent income. That decreases the cost of living for American renters in those select few grossly over-priced markets. People really shouldn't be buying in those few grossly over-priced coastal metro markets if they care about not losing their money in the coming years. It's not going to be fun for the foreign upper-middle class that worked hard to earn their money and are now buying those homes in the $500k-$1.5mil range. The "foreign criminals with ill gotten monies" buy monstrous estates, and are not at all in the same market as Americans who care about cost of living.

FunTime says

For this to be the most widely cited income data, according to the Wikipedia page, is telling when considering awareness for the big gaps in income near the top percentages. I think this definition would leave out a lot of the income in the top few percentages which would make the averages low.

When one is gauging whether $82,500k makes the cut for top 10%, it makes no difference whether the top 0.01% makes $1mil or $1bil per year. It's the income in the bottom 90% that moves the line.

mmmarvel says

Etc, etc, etc, and no, none of those 'leg ups' apply. What DID apply was my raising was in a comfortable middle class house. I had two loving parents, who didn't divorce. I started working (in the berry fields) when I was 8 (during the summer). I carried two paper routes. I washed dishes and bused tables when I was 16, driving the car that I bought with money I earned from my paper routes and mowing lawns. Moved to working as a stocker and checker when I was 18, and on and on and on.

The interesting thing about this is that we are screwing over today's youth 2-fold:

1) Deficit-spending and accumulating mountains of debt they will have to pay off

2) Spoiling them instead of preparing them for the reality that awaits them.

This asshole has done far worse to far more, yet he's still living free and in luxury. Call me when a big fish gets fried.

Reality says

Are you complaining because you are not in the 1%? Apparently social mobility worked in your case: someone else took the spot among the 1% that you could have expected to keep if the society were entirely run by nepotists (bureaucrats usually are).

In any case, it's not necessarily membership among the top 1%, but membership among the top 10%, top 25% or top 50% that a person's effort can make a big difference. To get into the 1%, obviously one has to out-compete 99 other people; that may be a multi-generational effort. Getting into the top 10% is not that hard: only takes about $82K a year or so income as an individual right now; get yourself there and stay there for a while, then you might be able to provide the base for your kid to get into the 1%.

We already are in the top 25%. My mother had her reasons for leaving her 1% family and it's not pretty and most of you would have done the same. I can't say that people within that class are turning out great people for the most part. A sense of entitlement and that you deserve more than the next person is a sick way of thinking, and has more than one sick way to manifest itself. Maybe stop making assumptions?

Reality says

it makes no difference whether the top 0.01% makes $1mil or $1bil per year.

Unless the mean is considered, which I think is actually the number that makes sense here. Each person counts equally, so their income has an equal proportion contribution to the mean. One person with a multimillion dollar income moves the mean.
For median calculations, I agree.

FunTime says

Reality says

it makes no difference whether the top 0.01% makes $1mil or $1bil per year.

Unless the mean is considered, which I think is actually the number that makes sense here. Each person counts equally, so their income has an equal proportion contribution to the mean. One person with a multimillion dollar income moves the mean.

For median calculations, I agree.

The percentiles have nothing to do with the mean. The mean is always much higher than the median simply because the extra weight given to the top end.

hrhjuliet says

We already are in the top 25%. My mother had her reasons for leaving her 1% family and it's not pretty and most of you would have done the same. I can't say that people within that class are turning out great people for the most part. A sense of entitlement and that you deserve more than the next person is a sick way of thinking, and has more than one sick way to manifest itself. Maybe stop making assumptions?

I have been in and out of the top 1% in terms of income several times. I was even in the bottom 25% for some period in my early adult life. I don't think I changed much. People are individuals, not members of classes. Do you feel particular affinity for fellow members in the top 25%? probably not.

You really need to give your obsession a vacation.

Has he Changed the shit out of us, or insured the Fuck out of us?

You Decide!

No. He's waiting for $1000.

If gold hits 1000, your house and his crapshacks in concord will be worth 25% of what they are now. However, we all know Ol Yellen will print the fuck out of the world's ink and paper supply before that happens.

Ether way, maybe we ZH readers aren't so crazy after all.

Scared?

I agree with you, people are individuals, I was merely pointing out that people leave wealth by choice in some situations because it can create a climate of apathy - think The Great Gatsby. I also believe that raising children in a self-entitled environment often breeds self-entitlement. I also believe raising kids in a day care often makes them have attachment issues. NOT always, just often. People can rise above all kinds of horrors. I actually agree with you. My whole point was that people are good, bad and hardworking in all of the income brackets. I was trying to point out that it's harder to avoid desperation if the person is poor, and its harder to avoid greed when the person is rich. Anyone can choose to rise above any negative emotions in any walk of life, but some environments make certain deadly sins harder than others to overcome. People are individuals, and their choices to do the right thing are to be commended in all situations. At the same time, where a person ends up economically is often based on luck or heredity. Not always, just often.

Reality says

hrhjuliet says

We already are in the top 25%. My mother had her reasons for leaving her 1% family and it's not pretty and most of you would have done the same. I can't say that people within that class are turning out great people for the most part. A sense of entitlement and that you deserve more than the next person is a sick way of thinking, and has more than one sick way to manifest itself. Maybe stop making assumptions?

I have been in and out of the top 1% in terms of income several times. I was even in the bottom 25% for some period in my early adult life. I don't think I changed much. People are individuals, not members of classes. Do you feel particular affinity for fellow members in the top 25%? probably not.

I have an observation to offer. As you all may be aware, I militate about the massive deception by omission here:
"The Public Be Suckered", at
http://patrick.net/?p=1230886
Most blameworthy for this omission are conpersons-in-control, who figure to have far more than their share of the top 1%!!! I think this bell will ring LOUD, please consider ringing!
For what it's worth, I went to school until my mid-20's; I recall NEVER hearing the likes of "how to FOOL the people".

mell says

The interesting thing about this is that we are screwing over today's youth 2-fold:

1) Deficit-spending and accumulating mountains of debt they will have to pay off

2) Spoiling them instead of preparing them for the reality that awaits them.

The deficit-spending will just end up (government deficit-spending) with higher taxes and fees, and the government figuring out more ways to get it's hands on your money. Personal deficit-spending ... that IS a personal problem. A basic understanding of finances (don't spend more than you make) and discipline can go a long ways there.

The spoiling issue - man, the coddling of youth drives me nuts. Rather than a right answer and a wrong answer, the question has become, 'How do you feel about your answer' - what??? I worked at an early age, now instead of working part (or all) of your summer, the kids are sent off to camp, part of the learning about a work ethic is lost right there. Instead of trying different jobs as you grow up, the kids are steered into doing one thing or nothing, then magically they are suppose to KNOW what they want to do. How many, many kids go through college, piling up debt, come out, go to work and quickly decide - 'Uh, I know I don't want to do this the rest of my life.'

We've taken winning and losing away from kids, but that is exactly what life is. There are winners and there are losers. One of life's lessons is that just because you didn't win today, so what, tomorrow is another day to try again. Just because you're not a winner in this area, doesn't mean you'll be a loser in another area. I really feel for the upcoming generations.

mmmarvel says

The spoiling issue - man, the coddling of youth drives me nuts. Rather than a right answer and a wrong answer, the question has become, 'How do you feel about your answer' - what??? I worked at an early age, now instead of working part (or all) of your summer, the kids are sent off to camp, part of the learning about a work ethic is lost right there. Instead of trying different jobs as you grow up, the kids are steered into doing one thing or nothing, then magically they are suppose to KNOW what they want to do.

. You are over generalizing. I worked in the summer and during the school year while in High School, and I was not an isolated case. Whether or not you are a boomer who wants to validate why a whole new generation deserves to be priced out, or whether you are a young adult feeling sorry for yourself and blaming the boomers, the fact remains, the prices are too high. The boomers home cost twice their income, just like their parents home, and a successful society would have the same available for this generation and the next. What kind of society does not want the same quality of life for their children they had? It should improve, not digress, and its not this generations fault, so stop blaming them.

Facebooksux says

No. He's waiting for $1000.

If gold hits 1000, your house and his crapshacks in concord will be worth 25% of what they are now. However, we all know Ol Yellen will print the fuck out of the world's ink and paper supply before that happens.

Ether way, maybe we ZH readers aren't so crazy after all.

Scared?

Yeah, now that the market is exhausted I suspect the dollar will continue to weaken as they can't stop printing in order to keep the market at these levels and gold will rise.

mell says

I suspect the dollar will continue to weaken as they can't stop printing in order to keep the market at these levels and gold will rise.

Dollar is hitting records against some EM currencies. If liquidity is removed by taper, dollar might continue getting stronger.

After United Airlines Flight 93 was hijacked, Beamer and other passengers communicated with people on the ground via airphones and cell phones, and learned that the World Trade Center and the Pentagon had been attacked using hijacked airplanes.

Beamer tried to place a credit card call through a phone located on the back of a plane seat but was routed to a customer-service representative instead, who passed him on to GTE supervisor Lisa Jefferson.

Now if you're suggesting that Airlines didn't have Elitist phones on every flight in 2001, then you never flew. Every Jet Blue flight had, a 5 to 7 inch flat screen, and a Phone with a credit card swipe.

tr6 says

mell says

I suspect the dollar will continue to weaken as they can't stop printing in order to keep the market at these levels and gold will rise.

Dollar is hitting records against some EM currencies. If liquidity is removed by taper, dollar might continue getting stronger.

On full taper towards zero I can see that happening, also likely any short maket bloodbaths will strengthen the dollar. But I cannot see it gaining significant strength against the EUR, I think while rangebound for now the EURUSD will eventually go to 1.40+.

First time home buyers do not usually pay cash for houses. Boomers buying a median house in 1980 would have paid 15% interest that cost nearly 3x then median income. That's a much higher percentage of median income than the current 4% interest on a house that is nearly 4x median income. 15% mortgage on a $150k (3x median income) house would be like $2000/mo, whereas today 4% 30yr mortgage on a $200k house (today's median price) is $1000/mo.

Interesting. Anyone watched this before? http://www.youtube.com/embed/7e1kyK5wmEc

Terrabella says

He deserved the sentence and will most likely die in prison. However, some of the comments here are juvenile and downright stupid. To paint an entire industry as a bunch of crooks is ridiculous. And,

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch leads the pack as an uneducated, redneck spouting bad taste. 7800 + comments kind of tells you something...doesn't it !!

I think he should dump those special needs kids on the Judge's doorstep. See if HE takes them in.

It now looks like Boner is giving up and will put to vote a clean debt ceiling bill:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/02/11/debt-ceiling-republicans-boehner/5390293/

I hope this is a sign of the fever breaking and the Republicans returning to some semblance of sanity. A man can dream.

Boner is folding like a cheap suit.
Clearly he doesn't have what it takes to shoot the hostage.

Dan8267 says

And here's how to fix it.

Removing $800 billions of spending is like removing 5% of the GDP, plus second order effects, probably enough to start a downward spiral.

I'd say that would kill the hostage.

The guys climb in to dumpsters to take a nap???

Your prices are too high. A home in San Ramon in 1980 did not cost $150,000. It was more like $25,000. a href="http://patrick.net/?p=1237859&c=1051669#comment-1051669">Reality says

First time home buyers do not usually pay cash for houses. Boomers buying a median house in 1980 would have paid 15% interest that cost nearly 3x then median income. That's a much higher percentage of median income than the current 4% interest on a house that is nearly 4x median income. 15% mortgage on a $150k (3x median income) house would be like $2000/mo, whereas today 4% 30yr mortgage on a $200k house (today's median price) is $1000/mo.

Man I was there! There was a phone call placed by Beamer, and it was what it was. No body back then balked and asked... "Well wait a minute, hows comes he's using a phone on a flyin machine, whens theys aint evens goings to invent thems untils 2006?"
Just how stupid do you think Cavemen were back 2001, before the smart phone was invented?

lostand confused says

The guys climb in to dumpsters to take a nap???

An Obama voter no doubt.
Hey if you're happy and you know it clap your hands!

Sirs:

In your arguments please distinguish between current deficit and long term debt.