patrick.net

Reality says

"Second class citizens" is a very highly privileged position when the society has 4-5 different classes, with only the ruling class as the first class citizens. The average (non-monopolistic) local traders would be below you, the average local laborers would be lower still, then the women, then the imported laborers from 3rd world countries.

You don't know what you are talking about. Expats are second class citizens to ALL Kuwaitis. Obviously, you can then sub-divide the respective locals and foreigners, but that wasn't my point.

Reality says

Why did even bother to bring up what you have met in person? If your point was strictly about what you have met in person? We are not meeting in person. You were obviously trying to make the point that my points of view were strange. In that case, your lack of exposure to them only signifies your ignorance.

No, it doesn't. It signifies that of the people I know and have met none of them hold your particular economic views.

Reality says

Because you only mentioned the locals love to discuss politics when I mentioned the usual taboo on debating religion and politics in polite company. How often do you engage in civilized debates on religions with your friends? Is that an echo chambers or guns blazing, literally?

What are you blathering on about? I'd happily talk about religion (and have) with foreigners in other parts of the world. Here not so much for reasons that should be obvious to you.

Bigsby says

Reality says

"Second class citizens" is a very highly privileged position when the society has 4-5 different classes, with only the ruling class as the first class citizens. The average (non-monopolistic) local traders would be below you, the average local laborers would be lower still, then the women, then the imported laborers from 3rd world countries.

You don't know what you are talking about. Expats are second class citizens to ALL Kuwaitis. Obviously, you can then sub-divide the respective locals and foreigners, but that wasn't my point.

So are you required to cover your face in public? Were people like you not allowed to drive a car before 1991? (women in Kuwait). 2/3 to 3/4 of the people living in Kuwait are not Kuwaitis! Like I said, "2nd class citizen" in that society means you are above the next 3-4 different classes, second only to the ruling elite.

Bigsby says

Why did even bother to bring up what you have met in person? If your point was strictly about what you have met in person? We are not meeting in person. You were obviously trying to make the point that my points of view were strange. In that case, your lack of exposure to them only signifies your ignorance.

No, it doesn't. It signifies that of the people I know and have met none of them hold your particular economic views.

Since we are not meeting in person, why did you bother to bring that up? Except as a way of saying how strange my economic views are. They are strange to you because you are ignorant.

Bigsby says

What are you blathering on about? I'd happily talk about religion (and have) with foreigners in other parts of the world. Here not so much for reasons that should be obvious to you.

So how many religious debates have you (presumably a Christian or agonostic/atheist??) had with the local Wahabist tribesman? Zero? Why do you think that's the case?

Reality says

So are you required to cover your face in public? Were people like you not allowed to drive a car before 1991? (women in Kuwait). 2/3 to 3/4 of the people living in Kuwait are not Kuwaitis! Like I said, "2nd class citizen" in that society means you are above the next 3-4 different classes.

Let me guess, you are now going to 'educate' me about life in present day Kuwait. Don't bother. And I know how many foreigners there are. I live here. And what has driving a car before '91 got to do with anything? Oh, and obviously I'm not going to list every sub group and say this person is socially higher than that person, so don't waste your time going down that path. It was obvious what I meant. Foreigners are considered to be beneath the local citizens. Certain foreigners are obviously more 'privileged' than other foreigners but as a group we do not have the rights, influence or power that any Kuwaiti can call upon in this society. You would understand that if you lived here, but instead you google a few facts and then think you can tell me what life is like in a country that I've lived in for more than a decade. Like I said, don't waste your time.

Bigsby says

Oh, let me guess, you are now going to 'educate' me about life in present day Kuwait. Don't bother. And I know how many foreigners there are. I live here. And what has driving a car before '91 got to do with anything? I'm not going to list every sub group and say this person is socially higher than that person, so don't waste your time going down that path. It was obvious what I meant. Foreigners are considered to be beneath the local citizens. Certain foreigners are obviously more 'privileged' than other foreigners but as a group we do not have the rights, influence or power that any Kuwaiti can call upon in this society. You would understand that if you lived here, but instead you google a few facts and then think you can tell me what life is like in a country that I've lived in for more than a decade. Like I said, don't waste your time.

"Local citizens" in Kuwait means 1/4 to 1/3 of the population. Half of that small fraction are women, which makes them second class to men in that society's tradition. You are not going to bamboozle me with "all foreigners are 2nd class citizens in Kuwait" because I know that the overwhelming majority of the population in that country are "foreigners." I did a research paper on that country just before Saddam Hussein invaded it. I don't need to waste time googling.

Reality says

So how many religious debates have you (presumably a Christian or agonostic/atheist??) had with the local Wahabist tribesman? Zero? Why do you think that's the case?

Are you deliberately being a moron? That is the bloody point I've been making. I DON'T discuss religion here for bloody obvious reasons. Exactly how many times have I now said that? Do I really need to spell it out for you?

Reality says

Since we are not meeting in person, why did you bother to bring that up? Except as a way of saying how strange my economic views are. They are strange to you because you are ignorant.

Really. So because I find your economic views strange, I'm ignorant. Is that right? So presumably because I view support of fascism to be strange, I'm ignorant. Or religious fundamentalism, or...

Bigsby says

Since we are not meeting in person, why did you bother to bring that up? Except as a way of saying how strange my economic views are. They are strange to you because you are ignorant.

Really. So because I find your economic views strange, I'm ignorant. Is that right? So presumably because I view support of fascism to be strange, I'm ignorant. Or religious fundamentalism, or...

There is nothing strange about religious fundamentalism or fascism. They are distasteful and repugnant, but not strange. Both have been practiced and even made into main stream in numerous countries on numerous occasions. What do you think the government sponsored corporatism is? It is fascism.

Reality says

"Local citizens" in Kuwait means 1/4 to 1/3 of the population. Half of that small fraction are women, which makes them second class to men in that society's tradition. You are not going to bamboozle me with "all foreigners are 2nd class citizens in Kuwait" because I know that the overwhelming majority of the population in that country are "foreigners." I did a research paper on that country just before Saddam Hussein invaded it. I don't need to waste time googling.

What difference does it make how many foreigners are here? Foreigners are second class citizens to Kuwaitis. Just as foreigners are lower down the food chain in all the other Gulf countries. And what was the topic of the paper? Apparently not the status of foreigners in Kuwait.

Reality says

There is nothing strange about religious fundamentalism or fascism. They are distasteful and repugnant, but not strange. Both have been practiced and even made into main stream in numerous countries on numerous occasions. What do you think the government sponsored corporatism is? It is fascism.

Why don't you give your pedantic little word games a rest?

I ask you this:
upisdown says

DO you even have the slightest clue as to WHY home building shuts down in the
winter/freezing temps other than it's just cold to work in and employee
production drops?
I doubt it, but give it a shot anyway, I need some Friday
entertainment.

You then respond with:Call it Crazy says

Call it Crazy
says

Builder confidence declined in all four U.S. regions, led by a 14-point
plunge in the West to the lowest level since June.(I guess snow in CA can
cause that) The index dropped nine points in the Midwest to 50, the weakest
reading since May. In the South, the measure decreased to a nine-month low of
46, while sentiment among builders in the Northeast fell eight points.

Hmmm... "led by a 14 point plunge in the West to the lowest level since
June"...

Yeah, it's really tough to build in those western and southern states because
of the snow and cold.... (that snow in June sucks too)...

You freely admit above(although by a lame attempt at being sarcastic) that apparently there's no snow and aparently no freezing temps in California.
So, I then posted the response below to give you another chance at showcasing your vast amounts of housing knowledge:

upisdown says

Try again, though without the circle-jerk theatrics.

And this is what you post:

Call it Crazy says

Call it
Crazy says

Are you going to continue today to show us how much of a true asshole you are
with these fucked up comments of yours???

upisdown
says

Call it
Crazy says

OK, I'll give it a shot....

Just as I thought, you're f-n clueless.

Try again, though without the circle-jerk theatrics.

I rest my case....

So, beyond any shadow of a doubt, you have absolutely NO idea why home building shuts down in the winter, or at the very least to a crawl, because of the bitter cold and freezing temps, do you?

C'mon, at least a wild guess or maybe even making something up and running with it non-stop like you do about everything else. Hell, I'll even give you a big hint.......moisture, or lack of.

Bigsby says

What difference does it make how many foreigners are here? Foreigners are second class citizens to Kuwaitis. Just as foreigners are lower down the food chain in all the other Gulf countries.

It makes a huge difference: "second class citizens" in the context of Kuwait means #2 ranking in a system that has 4-5 different ranks on the power pyramid. Western "expats" have been the technocrats running those societies on behalf of the ruling elite for a century now.

And what was the topic of the paper? Apparently not the status of foreigners in Kuwait.

It's hard not to touch upon the unusual demographics and the political/economic ramifications of "foreigners" in Kuwait. "Foreigners" make up for the vast majority of the population in that country.

Bigsby says

Reality says

There is nothing strange about religious fundamentalism or fascism. They are distasteful and repugnant, but not strange. Both have been practiced and even made into main stream in numerous countries on numerous occasions. What do you think the government sponsored corporatism is? It is fascism.

Why don't you give your pedantic little word games a rest?

Words convey meanings; they also reflect the knowledge and capacity of the person who put those words together.

Reality says

I did a research paper on that country just before Saddam Hussein invaded it.

Are you sure it wasn't a book report? Did you have to stand up in front of the class?

Reality says

Words convey meanings and reflect the knowledge and capacity of the person who put those words together.

Indeed, and this is an online forum where the general intent of what a person means doesn't need to be parsed in the manner that you seem intent on doing. You play silly little word games while seeming to be oblivious to the fact that much of what you're arguing is simply wrong.

Reality says

It makes a huge difference: "second class citizens" in the context of Kuwait means #2 ranking in a system that has 4-5 different ranks on the power pyramid. Western "expats" have been the technocrats running those societies on behalf of the ruling elite for a century now.

Oh, give me strength.
Reality says

And what was the topic of the paper? Apparently not the status of foreigners in Kuwait.

It's hard not to touch upon the unusual demographics and the political/economic ramifications of "foreigners" in Kuwait. "Foreigners" make up for the vast majority of the population in that country.

I'm not sure what relevance that response has to what I said. What exactly do you think your remark demonstrates and what was your paper on?

corntrollio says

Reality says

I did a research paper on that country just before Saddam Hussein invaded it.

Are you sure it wasn't a book report? Did you have to stand up in front of the class?

No. It was a term paper. I had to go through more than a dozen books to write the paper.

Reality says

corntrollio says

Reality says

I did a research paper on that country just before Saddam Hussein invaded it.

Are you sure it wasn't a book report? Did you have to stand up in front of the class?

No. It was a term paper. I had to go through more than a dozen books to write the paper.

A term paper. A dozen books. What was it on?

Bigsby says

Reality says

Words convey meanings and reflect the knowledge and capacity of the person who put those words together.

Indeed, and this is an online forum where the general intent of what a person means doesn't need to be parsed in the manner that you seem intent on doing. You play silly little word games while seeming to be oblivious to the fact that much of what you're arguing is simply wrong.

I use precise words to convey precise meanings. I do not use phrases like "2nd class citizen" to mislead people, who general do not know #2 is a high ranking in a society that has 4-5 different ranks on the pyramid.

Bigsby says

And what was the topic of the paper? Apparently not the status of foreigners in Kuwait.

It's hard not to touch upon the unusual demographics and the political/economic ramifications of "foreigners" in Kuwait. "Foreigners" make up for the vast majority of the population in that country.

I'm not sure what relevance that response has to what I said. What exactly do you think your remark demonstrates and what was your paper on?

The paper was on Kuwait. Writing a paper on Kuwait naturally had to cover its unusual demographics of 2/3 - 3/4 of the population being foreigners.

The class was on society, culture and religions of the Middle East. Each student was allowed to pick a different country and write the term paper on that country. I happened to have picked Kuwait (because someone had beat me to claiming Israel), a few months before Kuwait was invaded and became headline news day and night every day!

BTW, if you want to know what _debating_ politics would be like among real life friends, take a look at the "dislikes" dished out around here.

Reality says

The paper was on Kuwait. Writing a paper on Kuwait naturally had to cover its unusual demographics of 2/3 - 3/4 of the population are foreigners.

The class was on society, culture and religions of the Middle East. Each student was allowed to pick a country and write the term paper on the country. I happened to have picked Kuwait, a few months before it was invaded!

Hmmm, naturally...

And the demographics aren't especially unusual for the Gulf. Only 17% of the population are locals in the UAE for example.

Reality says

BTW, if you want to know what _debating_ politics would be like among real life friends, take a look at the "dislikes" dished out around here.

I'm not pressing the dislike button if you were wondering.

Bigsby says

Hmmm...

And the demographics aren't especially unusual for the Gulf. Only 17% of the population are locals in the UAE for example.

You are supporting my point that the term "2nd class citizen" is misleading in the Middle East context. Western "expats" in the Middle East command a government-sponsored privileged position.

Reality says

I use precise words to convey precise meanings. I do not use phrases like "2nd class citizen" to mislead people, who general do not know #2 is a high ranking in a society that has 4-5 different ranks on the pyramid.

That's just a nonsense as is your random selection of 4-5 different ranks on a supposed pyramid. It's obvious what is being conveyed when I said foreigners are considered second class citizens in comparison to the locals. That doesn't need to be broken down into every possible permutation. You are simply playing more of your games.

Reality says

You are supporting my point that the term "2nd class citizen" is misleading in the Middle East context. Western "expats" in the Middle East command a government-sponsored privileged position.

Privileged to whom? Not compared to the locals, which was my point. What is yours?

Bigsby says

Reality says

I use precise words to convey precise meanings. I do not use phrases like "2nd class citizen" to mislead people, who general do not know #2 is a high ranking in a society that has 4-5 different ranks on the pyramid.

That's just a nonsense as is your random selection of 4-5 different ranks on a supposed pyramid. It's obvious what is being conveyed when I said foreigners are considered second class citizens in comparison to the locals. That doesn't need to be broken down into every possible permutation. You are simply playing more of your games.

No, it is not a word game. "2nd class citizen" in the modern western context means underprivileged minority, not technocrat or nobility class just below Royalty but above the majority of the population. In the Kuwaiti context, because nearly 3/4 of the population are "foreigners," the western "expats" are second only to the (male) Kuwaiti Citizens, which only accounts for a tiny fraction of the population.

The word "the locals" is also misleading. The proper term is actually Kuwaiti Citizens or Local Citizens. The emphasis being on Citizens, whose qualification involves tracing back ancestry many generations ago to a specific date. Most non-citizens in Kuwait are actually local middle easterners born and raised in Kuwait but not Kuwaiti Citizens.

Bigsby says

You are supporting my point that the term "2nd class citizen" is misleading in the Middle East context. Western "expats" in the Middle East command a government-sponsored privileged position.

Privileged to whom? Not compared to the locals, which was my point. What is yours?

More privileged than the vast majority of the population living in Kuwait. Your "locals" refer to the tiny fraction of the population that are qualified as Kuwaiti Citizens based on their ancestors many generations ago with a cut-off date either in the early 20th century or late 19th century. The majority of population living in the gulf states are not Citizens despite them being arabs and having been in the country for many generations.

Atrocities are only publicized on a case by case basis for political expediency.

Large atrocities completely ignored if it a "pox on your house" atrocity, small atrocities made up or exaggerated if it's "I need to intervene in your country and stir up some shit for political/economic advantage."

Read in between the lines, the press has a narrow, controlled cynosure.

komputodo says

really? that's how your mind works?

Yep--because it's a dumb statement to begin with, worthy of a pithy response.

Reality says

The majority of population living in the gulf states are not Citizens despite them being arabs and having been in the country for many generations.

That's the worst nonsense I've ever heard.. The gulf states are Kuwait, Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Oman and South Yemen are arab states but not gulf states. How the fuck could arabs have lived in the region for generations and not be citizens. Of course they are citizens, they are arabs. There's a reason it's called the Arab Peninsula. They've lived there for thousands of years. The first recorded usage if the word arab was a record of the assyrian conquest of syria 854-856. Trust me on this, after 3000 years you really are a citizen.

Perhaps you are trying to say the Emirates states? If so what does that have to do with Kuwait?

Reality says

Expats" and "expat" chambers of commerce have been in existence since long before "retirement" became a part of life for most people.

The term expat was first used in 1962 according to 3 separete dictionaries I looked in. I'm pretty sure retirement predated it.

Reality says

I understand the term quite well, both the legal meaning of it and how the chambers of commerce overseas promote it. I worked abroad, then the "abroad" became my home country, then I have worked several different "abroads" of various durations, including some to my country of birth as "abroad" because my home country changed. You can say that I actually expatriated from my country of birth in the legal sense.

ex·pa·tri·ate
[v. eks-pey-tree-eyt or, esp. British, -pa-tree-; adj., n. eks-pey-tree-it, -eyt or, esp. British, -pa-tree-] Show IPA
verb (used with object), ex·pa·tri·at·ed, ex·pa·tri·at·ing.
1. to banish (a person) from his or her native country.
2. to withdraw (oneself) from residence in one's native country.
3.to withdraw (oneself) from allegiance to one's country.
verb (used without object), ex·pa·tri·at·ed, ex·pa·tri·at·ing.
4.to become an expatriate: He expatriated from his homeland.
adjective
5.expatriated; exiled.

Of course you expatriated from your country of birth. That's where you are a citizen. The definition of expatriate is to leave your country of citizenship. Another definition and usage of the word expatriate is to give up your citizenship. Let me clue you in on some of the terms used by everyone in world except you. Citizen, overseas, homeland, and resident. Not abroad and home country. Now I know for sure you've never travelled further than the state fair.

Reality says

No, it is not a word game. "2nd class citizen" in the modern western context means underprivileged minority, not technocrat or nobility class just below Royalty but above the majority of the population. In the Kuwaiti context, because nearly 3/4 of the population are "foreigners," the western "expats" are second only to the (male) Kuwaiti Citizens, which only accounts for a tiny fraction of the population.

The word "the locals" is also misleading. The proper term is actually Kuwaiti Citizens or Local Citizens. The emphasis being on Citizens, whose qualification involves tracing back ancestry many generations ago to a specific date. Most non-citizens in Kuwait are actually local middle easterners born and raised in Kuwait but not Kuwaiti Citizens.

More of your games. It was perfectly clear that I was talking about local Kuwaiti citizens. Your trying to twist the language used to fit your argument doesn't change what I was obviously saying. And no, the western expats aren't only second to the male Kuwaitis, they are second to Kuwaitis, which is what I said, is it not? It doesn't make any difference to the point I was making how big the population of the local KUWAITI CITIZENS is. I know how big it is and I know the make up of the population. Only one group has the real rights and privileges conveyed on it, that gets all the grants, pensions, housing rights, best government jobs, etc., etc., that has the wasta that greases the wheels over here. And those aren't Middle Easterners or Asians born here, or the foreigners that come to work here. And yes, I know fine well that being born here doesn't automatically make you a citizen. You have to google it. I'm surrounded by people born and raised here, but who aren't citizens, do not hold Kuwaiti passports, and do not get any of the aforementioned benefits, so don't think you are informing me of anything.

I get the strong impression that you are simply bullshitting. I don't believe you did a paper on this. How convenient that when I said I lived in Kuwait and was talking about the population that you suddenly said you did a paper on the area. A paper indeed. And what was that on? Kuwait and the population. Oh, what a detail free coincidence.

Anyway I'm tired of this. You aren't saying anything. You aren't telling me anything. All you are attempting to do is 'win' an argument by implying that what I am saying is wrong because I didn't use the language that YOU think is most appropriate, but which is clear enough to anyone else who isn't playing the games you are, so enough already. I've lived here for over a decade. I don't live on some Saudi style compound, I live bang in the heart of the city. I see what goes on day-to-day. I see who has the power and influence. It is the Kuwaitis, male AND female. They have the wasta, and they get the handouts, not the foreigners (or those who aren't recognized as Kuwaiti citizens before you waste your time going down that path again), so don't think you can tell me what life is like over here from your keyboard in America. You can't.

Wow! You wake up so early in the morning in Kuwait just to write a lengthy verbiage?

Bigsby says

More of your games

gsr says

Wow! You wake up so early in the morning in Kuwait just to write a lengthy verbiage?

Bigsby says

More of your games

I wake up early every day. I didn't wake up early just to write a response.

What a surprise that you popped up.

Mush lay off the kids, you fukkk

Call it Crazy says

Let's see , besides being a financial expert better than Bloomberg and the
NAHB, A pension expert, you are now a construction expert...

Wow, you're amazing!!! (which shows you know nothing about construction along
without knowing anything about the other areas I just typed).....

I have to hand it to you, you're living up to all my expectations today of
being a total asshole!!!

C'mon queenie, tell us how the blog world works......LOL

Call it Crazy says

upisdown
says

So, beyond any shadow of a doubt, you have absolutely NO idea why home
building shuts down in the winter, or at the very least to a crawl, because of
the bitter cold and freezing temps, do you?

C'mon, at least a wild guess or maybe even making something up and running
with it non-stop like you do about everything else. Hell, I'll even give you a
big hint.......moisture, or lack of.

Let's see , besides being a financial expert better than Bloomberg and the
NAHB, A pension expert, you are now a construction expert...

Wow, you're amazing!!! (which shows you know nothing about construction along
without knowing anything about the other areas I just typed).....

I have to hand it to you, you're living up to all my expectations today of
being a total asshole!!!

So, the shitbag of san fran who can't afford a house has no clue..........go figure.

Call it Crazy says

Let's see , besides being a financial expert better than Bloomberg and the
NAHB, A pension expert, you are now a construction expert...

Wow, you're amazing!!! (which shows you know nothing about construction along
without knowing anything about the other areas I just typed).....

I have to hand it to you, you're living up to all my expectations today of
being a total asshole!!!

LOL, you really are aloser, aren't you. Ypour dumbass can't buy a shit-shack, and then pretends that nobody wants to buy that same shit-shack.

Tell us how it works, or how not to be able to buy property. LOL

Ooooooooooh scary, super duper scary,...........