patrick.net

I would like people to seriously evaluate how much space they need. Do 2 adults and 1-3 kids really need 2000+ sqft?

No. They need at least 1000sqft more than that.

Although I disagree with Cote' in his disdain for "subsidizing urbanization", I do agree overall that the market will most efficiently allocate resources. If people demand 3500sqft garage snout outburban estates, then in the very long run these will either (a) be abandoned, devalued and replaced with something more productive, which could even been forest preserves or farmland; or (b) they will provide valuable standard of living to those dwelling therein, consequently making those people, who are also workers, more productive and valuable resources themselves.

My perfect world is one in which people realize that other people disagree with their notion of a "perfect world". And, that that's ok.

M. Cote,

"I thought we were in general agreement and merely working out the details."

Okay, that'll all cool then. ;) I'm sorry about the last comment. I thought you were objecting to my points when I've largely agreed your points.

I'm not a big fan of public transportation in the US. But in many situations(currently, mostly outside of the US), they can become efficient once sufficient population density is achieved. Public transportation can also work by relieving road congestion and making everybody else's commute a bit more bearable. Using public transportation is generally more reliable timewise than dealing with congested traffic and result in better time usage (napping or reading blackberries rather than driving) and fewer accidental deaths.

As for living in suburbs. Yes, it's the length and quality of the commute that matters, rather than driving distance. I find BART travel to be quite tolerable for going from Pleasanton into SF (direct line), but much less pleasant for getting into Berkeley (which require a changeover that adds 20 minutes to the commute).

My utopian ideal is that we don't have to sacrifice commute time or privacy or anything else. Going underground is one solution, telecommunication would be another. I would like for there to be greenspace and for people to live in comfortable houses and for people to minimize their commute time.

(One type of public transportation that I'm strongly against are regular service public buses. Commute time buses make some sense, but regular service buses are an extremely inefficient economic transfer to people who don't drive. Anyone who can drive tends to avoid them like crazy.)

Most denizens of industrialized and developing economies make do with much less than 2000 sq ft per family, without resorting to psychologists or medication. Furthermore, I'd maintain that a 1500 sqft but well designed home with lots of multi-use spaces can be much more useful and more private than a McMansion twice its size. The sheer size of the home is quite meaningless. We could all live in airplane hangers but still lack privacy and meaningful storage space.

I think in large part my view of "utopia" is hopelessly skewed.

Have any of you spent any time at all on a "military installation"?

Because penalties are swift and severe there is virtually no crime. When I say no crime I'm not talking about murders and armed robberies I'm talking about parking in the commanding officer's parking spot. It just isn't done!

Things "work" on a military base. One line for officers, one for enlisted's.

Things are orderly. When children are done using the playground they are picked up after. Buildings are well maintained. Lawns are kept tidy. People respect one another's property by not dinging your car doors in the parking lot.

I realize the military isn't for everybody but what a great way to run a "city". Just about every base I've ever been on looks like it's frozen in the 1950's.

Granted (the taxpayers) foot the bill for much of this "attention" but why is it so damn impossible to replicate in civilian society? Why are we running such a free for all?

DinOR,

With a strict enough set of bylaws, condos and gated communities can do just that.

Most denizens of industrialized and developing economies make do with much less than 2000 sq ft per family, without resorting to psychologists or medication.

Space is good. Overpopulation is bad.

astrid,

We attempt to replicate that in our complex with a sense of community and taking pains to make sure every one stays involved wether it's fall clean-up or making sure the recycling finds it's way to the curb.

It's not that damn difficult. What's amazing on mil. bases is that the avg. age is like 23 years old. So I believe young people can embrace these values as well.

In my Utopia overpopulation will be dealt with.

"In my Utopia overpopulation will be dealt with."

Do you want to build a ringworld, or go ahead and tackle a Dyson sphere?

With a strict enough set of bylaws, condos and gated communities can do just that.

We also need a way to keep away the undesirables. A society cannot be great if it tolerates bad elements.

Other solutions include creating a highly successful cult that prohibits procreation.

Do you want to build a ringworld, or go ahead and tackle a Dyson sphere?

Maximum solar energy?

Other solutions include creating a highly successful cult that prohibits procreation.

Procreation is necessarily. But the current system appears to be upside down. Ideally, we want the right people - and the right people only - to have children. The reverse is happening.

Utopias? I might prefer a townhome layout to a SFH, with two exceptions. First, moving "real" furniture up stairs is not fun; and second, the SFH usually includes some sort of private outdoor space where you can put a hot tub, victory garden, or even just grass.

Transportation is the key; there is such much beautiful country out there, but it's just not feasible to commute. (Define "God's country": any place where it's hell to make a living.) There's a nice essay on the economics of public transit here that I think is worth a read. Other than that, proper enforcement of lane discipline and setting speed limits in accordance with established traffic engineering principles would also save a number of lives as well as improving road courtesy, seatbelt use, etc.

I think going police state is actually the wrong way to help clean up a community; it may get immediate results, but inevitable spins out of control to end up either an East Palo Alto or a "Pleasantville". My opinion is that focusing on community involvement is better, with a firm application of force when needed and /only/ when needed.

Oh, ringworlds and orbitals rock! If you have the tech to build them, you likely have transportation problems well in hand, plus everyone can have all the space they want. Scarcity is for primitives.

Transportation is the key; there is such much beautiful country out there, but it’s just not feasible to commute.

Telecommuting should be encouraged.

All roads should become toll roads so that the costs of transportation can be passed on to the users. This WILL lead to better resource allocation.

East Palo Alto

I thought EPA screwed up because of rent control. I have yet to see a nice city that is rent-controlled.

Any attempt to "protect" the people with price control will only hurt them more.

requiem,

I'm certainly not advocating any kind of a police state. Any time someone is transferred to a new mil. base they will rec. an "indoctrination" about local places in town where there have been problems, how to find your way to the hospital and sometimes you'll be assigned a "sponsor".

So it's more about "upholding" tradition as one of the cleanest and safest bases than brow beating anyone. In some cases there really doesn't have to be a threat of conformity. When I was stationed at Long Beach, CA (right off of Santa Fe Ave.) the sirens NEVER stopped! 24/7 emergency goin' down somewhere! Who wanted to get kicked out and have to deal with some apt. complex's "stabbing of the week"?

"I thought EPA screwed up because of rent control. I have yet to see a nice city that is rent-controlled."

Allegedly, there are some really nice rent control apartments in NYC and Santa Monica, and some pretty good ones in SF...though they're probably nice inspite of the rent control, rather than because of it.

requiem,

I thought Peter P was talking about the overpopulation problem. The most obvious solution to the problem is to create more land surface (by building up, building down, orbital colonies or whatever).

As for the commuting problem. A transfer booth or transfer beam or dial-a-travel will do just fine.

I thought Peter P was talking about the overpopulation problem. The most obvious solution to the problem is to create more land surface (by building up, building down, orbital colonies or whatever).

Reducing total population growth to zero is also effective. This is the only thing I have in common with environmentalists.

The best solution to commuting is to end work. Make computers and robots do all the menial/not fun/drudge work. People can work for fun or lifestyle upgrade, but make work optional.

The best solution to commuting is to end work. Make computers and robots do all the menial/not fun/drudge work. People can work for fun or lifestyle upgrade, but make work optional.

Possible. The only "perfect" economic system is to have seemingly unlimited resource.

"Possible. The only “perfect” economic system is to have seemingly unlimited resource."

Yes! Now would you please get on with creating fusion power, making an army of skillful yet completely loyal robot servants and building that Dyson sphere. I'd like to see it soon so I can retire early.

I'm not sure overpopulation is a problem; it's just that so many people are clustered because of poor transportation options. (Though, cutting down on kids would help a great deal.)

DinOR: if the motivation is not to be kicked out, isn't that a sort of passive-aggressive browbeating? Just tossing out ideas; from my own experience, I think the "upholding tradition" aspect or similar is more than enough for most of the inhabitants.

I’m not sure overpopulation is a problem; it’s just that so many people are clustered because of poor transportation options. (Though, cutting down on kids would help a great deal.)

If people is the problem that having too many people will be a big problem.

Upholding tradition aspect only works if you have a relatively homogenous group of individuals sharing similar views and objectives. It's no good if you live next door to a flipper owned house rented out to four illegal migrant families or a meth brewer.

Even well intentioned new immigrant families tend to neglect outside upkeep.

requiem,

The truth is that the base housing in Long Beach at the time (early 80's) wasn't all that enviable. It had been built in WWII and was showing it's age. But it was affordable and orderly and just outside LB was Hell Hole of the first and worst order!

At the time LB had a higher per capita murder rate than Detroit. Property crimes were so commonplace the PD didn't even respond. Santa Fe Ave. that ran along the east side was known as the Ho Chi Minh Trail b/c it was wall to wall Vietnamese strip clubs etc. To their credit LB has cleaned up somewhat but even Ocean Blvd. was scary. It was a hangover from the Viet Nam era (and boy did it look it). Tattoo parlors, peep shows and pawn shops. In contrast base housing looked LIKE utopia!

Even well intentioned new immigrant families tend to neglect outside upkeep.

Is this a cultural issue or an available-time issue? (serious question) The case of the flipper and the migrant workers seem solvable by the application of sane economic/immigration/security policies. The meth brewer, well, that's what the local police are for. So, if we end up with a rational environment, will the immigrant family still be neglecting the upkeep?

In contrast base housing looked LIKE utopia!

Perhaps Utopia is relative.

austingal,

I tend to lean toward your vision. People that live in climate extremes may want to consider earth sheltered options, folks in moderate climates probably won't worry about it.

The reason I got interested in water catchment systems was for all the rain we get in Oregon our shared well was a pain in the a$$. Always needed work, parts or maint. and by August you couldn't do laundry and dishes at the same time. Is that crazy or what? The spring break quake of 1993 changed our water table that much!

I think it's more a cultural and a learning curve issue. Chinese people (and presumably Japanese and Koreans) don't really know how to take care of grass. They're also cheap, so they won't water enough to keep the grass green and doesn't seed or fertilize on time.

The best way to get an immaculate lawn/garden is to have the HOA hire an outside contractor to do all the work. You get efficiency of scale and it cuts down weekend noise pollution, and enforcement becomes a non-issue.

Just for fun!
Put your utopian ideals to the test by creating your own nation state over at

www.nationstates.net

Your government can accept, reject and dismiss an outstanding issue every day, and your answers will affect how well or how badly your country turns out.

You can join together with others to create regions and when you get big enough you get admission to the United Nations.

/Just for fun!

The building is filled with mostly quite wealthy people who live in gorgeous rentals because there is absolutely no incentive for them to move out of those apartments, ever.

But are they updated with modern kitchens and marble baths? There is not much incentive for landlords to renovate rent-controlled buildings, right?

Rent control is quasi ownership. The renters can afford to update the interior at their own expense.

The main point is that while there are many problems with rent control, I don't think you can blame EPA on rent control.

The main point is that while there are many problems with rent control, I don’t think you can blame EPA on rent control.

Must be the feng shui.

Prop 13 is vaguely a form of rent control. This is why I am not a supporter.

It is a mistake. We will see more and more examples of resource misallocation because of Prop 13.

I think the bubble blogs are driving some Realtors insane.

I like marinite, but I am against making accusations against realtors or other individuals.

One of my friends lives in that building and she did a major renovation of the kitchen and baths and redid the floors, major paint job, gorgeous curtains, etc.

If there is a legally-enforcable long-term lease, why not?

Has anybody read this?
http://marinrealestatebubble.blogspot.com/2006/09/local-broker-slams-this-blog_11.html

I think the bubble blogs are driving some Realtors insane.

As the bubble collapse becomes undeniable to even the most obstinant perma-bull, watch out for idiots like this to start wagging an accusatory at blogs like this one. Who know? Maybe LAY will sue Peter P for personally lowering her house value by 40%.

I guess we'd better start wearing camo & body armor --"shoot the messenger" season's just started and there are millions of FBs with itchy trigger fingers out there.