patrick.net

Reality says

You apparently don't understand the simple logic that when the disease is non-existent or nearly non-existent, the reward/risk ratio of vaccinating against it drops precipitously.

So, you agree that for diseases that are NOT non-existent or nearly non-existent, vaccination shouldn't be a choice?

HydroCabron says

Reality says

That's why I asked you, did you get yourself or your kids vaccinated with the grand-daddy of all vaccinations: the Smallpox Vaccine. And why not?

Smallpox no longer exists outside of lab storage. The remote chance of side effects from the vaccination dwarfs the far more remote chance of getting the disease.

This argument does not apply to any of the diseases we currently vaccinate for: in all cases, the chance of getting the disease is far higher than the possibility of side effects.

If you live in a ghetto, perhaps. In that case, the most cost-effective immunization is really sterilization of the would-be parents. Sterilization (duration specific or permanent) should be mandatory condition for receiving welfare.

In particular the possibility of non-existent side effects, such as autism, is 0.

Auto-immune disorder is a non-zero risk, damage to brain is not a zero-risk, hence even the CDC has recommended minimum ages for a variety of vaccines. Vaccines are not nearly as safe to new borns as the vaxers make them out to be. Also, the emotional impact of pain inflicted on a child too young to understand why parents are not protecting him/her from the hurt is 100%.

tatupu70 says

Reality says

You apparently don't understand the simple logic that when the disease is non-existent or nearly non-existent, the reward/risk ratio of vaccinating against it drops precipitously.

So, you agree that for diseases that are NOT non-existent or nearly non-existent, vaccination shouldn't be a choice?

Vaccination is a choice, sometimes a bad choice. Let's keep it a choice instead of a mandate.

Reality says

Vaccination is a choice, sometimes a bad choice. Let's keep it a choice instead of a mandate.

So, you're OK with babies dying from measles then?

tatupu70 says

Reality says

Vaccination is a choice, sometimes a bad choice. Let's keep it a choice instead of a mandate.

So, you're OK with babies dying from measles then?

So you are okay with babies dying from adverse reaction to vaccines then?

What's next? You are okay with people dying from automobile accidents if you don't agree to banning cars?

Reality says

So you are okay with babies dying from adverse reaction to vaccines then?

What's next? You are okay with people dying from automobile accidents if you don't agree to banning cars?

OK, let's back up. First, why don't you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

No. Counter-arguments work like a LIFO Stack, not a FIFO Queue. A counter-argument is like a sub-routine; it has to be resolved first to produce the answer to the topic that launched it.

Reality says

No. Counter-arguments work like a LIFO Stack

OK--what is a greater risk: unvaccinated babies getting measles or the side effects of vaccinating children per the current vaccination guidelines?

Call it Crazy says

You mean to tell us there are many babies dying from the measles. Care to share the official totals with us?

So, it's only a problem if "many" die? Would you feel that way if your child was one of the "few" that needlessly died?

tatupu70 says

Would you feel that way if your child was one of the "few" that needlessly died?

'Course not. Beats having a drooling autistic kid to take care of.

tatupu70 says

OK--what is a greater risk: unvaccinated babies getting measles or the side effects of vaccinating children per the current vaccination guidelines?

Did your parents give you too much vaccine too early and caused mental retardation? Do you think "the current vaccination guidelines" are carved into the stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai?

Do you think there are more kids born into the ghettos or born into upper middle families? To which kids/parents do you think those "government guidelines" are written for? The gullible parents or the ones with analytical insight? Here's a hint: do you think most TV ads are made for couch potatoes or made for Einsteins who do no watch TV's?

Delaying my kid's MMR to 4yo had zero effect on other kids, especially those in 3rd world and in ghettos, simply because she was not exposed to the ghetto, 3rd world or early 20th century that you vaxers love so much. So the marginal benefit of giving her vaccine at 1 vs. at 4 was 0, whereas side effect would be 100%!

I liked the related articles better:
Soccer Mom To Suck Off World's Greatest Dad
http://www.theonion.com/articles/soccer-mom-to-suck-off-worlds-greatest-dad,9109/

Horrified Teen Stumbles Upon Divorced Mom's Personal Ad
http://www.theonion.com/articles/horrified-teen-stumbles-upon-divorced-moms-persona,681/
The only remarks came from Jared Ricks, a fellow junior at Commonwealth, who heard about the ad from Phillips.

"Yo, D, I left a voicemail for your moms but she ain't called me back," Ricks said. "I told her I like long walks and hot fucking."

tatupu70 says

Call it Crazy says

You mean to tell us there are many babies dying from the measles. Care to share the official totals with us?

So, it's only a problem if "many" die? Would you feel that way if your child was one of the "few" that needlessly died?

I would be very angry if my child were one of those who needlessly suffer from too much vaccine too early. The fact that the vaccine makers want legal immunity for their products is evidence enough that their products should be only used with extreme caution.

It's fine, the stupid once will die out.

Reality says

Do you think "the current vaccination guidelines" are carved into the stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai?

No--I think that if Moses brought them down, they wouldn't be called guidelines.. Do you deny that vaccination guidelines exist?

Reality says

Do you think there are more kids born into the ghettos or born into upper middle families? To which kids/parents do you think those "government guidelines" are written for? The gullible parents or the ones with analytical insight? Here's a hint: do you think most TV ads are made for couch potatoes or made for Einsteins who do no watch TV's?

Lots of questions there with no real point in mind... If you have a point to make about government guidelines--by all means, make it. You think the guidelines are wrong?

Reality says

Delaying my kid's MMR to 4yo had zero effect on other kids, especially those in 3rd world and in ghettos, simply because she was not exposed to the ghetto, 3rd world or early 20th century that you vaxers love so much. So the marginal benefit of giving her vaccine at 1 vs. at 4 was 0, whereas side effect would be 100%!

And why do you think that's relevant? Anti-vaxxers aren't just delaying their kid's vaccinations, they are refusing them.

Reality says

I would be very angry if my child were one of those who needlessly suffer from too much vaccine too early. The fact that the vaccine makers want legal immunity for their products is evidence enough that their products should be only used with extreme caution.

Again--who is arguing for too much vaccine, too early?

FortWayne says

It's fine, the stupid once will die out.

Oh if only. No they bring their measles and shit to BABIES who can't be vaccinated yet and don't have a mature immune system.

See first it's I "only want to delay". Maybe you even miss a shot, or a booster. Then you get around and tell all the other parents about your ideas, and it spreads. Like a virus.

There's one of the fundy jerks who is anti-vax, and they are having to walk that shit back after a measles outbreak.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/31/measles-cases-put-texas-megachurch-under-scrutiny/

Reality says

I did not give my child MMR until she was 4 and ready to attend pre-school.

Only child? Never left home, nanny, might as well go Full Bubble.

How many families have their kids at home until age 4? Few.

That shit sounds great, until your 5 year old brings something nasty home, and Mr. and Mrs. Immunized don't catch it but the baby does.

Once you have multiple kids going in and out of the house, different schools, sports, playdates at other peoples' house.... EVERYTHING comes home.

hopefully an epidemic wipes out all the liberals

tatupu70 says

Reality says

I would be very angry if my child were one of those who needlessly suffer from too much vaccine too early. The fact that the vaccine makers want legal immunity for their products is evidence enough that their products should be only used with extreme caution.

Again--who is arguing for too much vaccine, too early?

Everyone who argues for mandating vaccine for kids for whom any specific vaccine is not necessary at a specific development stage of the child.

Vicente says

I did not give my child MMR until she was 4 and ready to attend pre-school.

Only child? Never left home, nanny, might as well go Full Bubble.

Only in your retarded mind. You are obviously unfit to be a parent if you think providing the most healthy environment that the parents can afford for the child is something to be jealous of. Why don't you send your kid to a 3rd world hell hole refugee camp? Then yes, bring on all the vaccines for him/her.

Vicente says

How many families have their kids at home until age 4? Few.

Quite a few where I live. In the eyes of someone living in a 3rd world hell hole refugee camp, perhaps the equivalent of your question would be "how many families have 3 meals a day?" Cheap crap food would be a life saver in that case indeed. Just like cheap crap food should not be mandated for your family because you can afford a better living for your kid, don't mandate early heavy dose of vaccines for kids whose parents can afford a better environment than disease ridden surroundings and are self-disciplined enough to refrain form taking infants on mindless mall trips.

That shit sounds great, until your 5 year old brings something nasty home, and Mr. and Mrs. Immunized don't catch it but the baby does.

Once you have multiple kids going in and out of the house, different schools, sports, playdates at other peoples' house.... EVERYTHING comes home.

So you are saying your great vaccines do not work after being administered at 4? The same vaccine administered at 4 is much more effective when the child turns 5 than if it is administered 3 years earlier. You are obviously clueless about immunology too. You idiots are just experts advocating things you don't understand.

tatupu70 says

No--I think that if Moses brought them down, they wouldn't be called guidelines.. Do you deny that vaccination guidelines exist?

The vaccine advocates are pushing for mandates.

tatupu70 says

Do you think there are more kids born into the ghettos or born into upper middle families? To which kids/parents do you think those "government guidelines" are written for? The gullible parents or the ones with analytical insight? Here's a hint: do you think most TV ads are made for couch potatoes or made for Einsteins who do no watch TV's?

Lots of questions there with no real point in mind... If you have a point to make about government guidelines--by all means, make it. You think the guidelines are wrong?

Vaccine guideline is nothing more than an educated guess on where to draw the line between two overlapping Gaussian curves (risk of disease exposure while unvaccinated vs. risk of side effect from the vaccines themselves). The vaccine guideline for kids living in a 3rd world hell hole refugee camp would be very different from the guideline for someone living in even the urban slums in the US. Likewise, the guideline for densely packed urban slums would be very different from what is needed for suburban responsible parents who conduct life in a way that their infants have very little disease exposure. The government bureaucrats have their hands tied by political correctness to publish different guidelines, and frankly the bureaucrats do not know enough about any specific family to tailor guideline for each child.

tatupu70 says

Anti-vaxxers aren't just delaying their kid's vaccinations, they are refusing them.

Nope. The political/economic agenda of the vax advocates is get vax early and get vax often, in order to maximize the profit of vaccine makers.

Most parents who are against giving their newborns vaccine are simply trying to delay vaccination by 1-3 years. The propagandists are giving parents tons of grief for being responsible parents.

Reality says

Nope. The political/economic agenda of the vax advocates is get vax early and get vax often, in order to maximize the profit of vaccine makers.

Most parents who are against giving their newborns vaccine are simply trying to delay vaccination by 1-3 years. The propagandists are giving parents tons of grief for being responsible parents.

That is patently false. The anti-vaxxers are against vaccines at any age.

There may be a set of folks who want to delay vaccines by a few years, but they are not the core of the anti-vaxx crowd.

Reality says

Vaccine guideline is nothing more than an educated guess on where to draw the line between two overlapping Gaussian curves (risk of disease exposure while unvaccinated vs. risk of side effect from the vaccines themselves). The vaccine guideline for kids living in a 3rd world hell hole refugee camp would be very different from the guideline for someone living in even the urban slums in the US. Likewise, the guideline for densely packed urban slums would be very different from what is needed for suburban responsible parents who conduct life in a way that their infants have very little disease exposure. The government bureaucrats have their hands tied by political correctness to publish different guidelines, and frankly the bureaucrats do not know enough about any specific family to tailor guideline for each child.

Would they? The chances for contracting disease might be higher in a 3rd world hellhole, but the guidelines very likely would be the same. Palatine, IL is clearly an upper middle class suburb--are you going to argue that risks of vaccine side effects outweigh the risks of measles there?

tatupu70 says

Reality says

Nope. The political/economic agenda of the vax advocates is get vax early and get vax often, in order to maximize the profit of vaccine makers.

Most parents who are against giving their newborns vaccine are simply trying to delay vaccination by 1-3 years. The propagandists are giving parents tons of grief for being responsible parents.

That is patently false. The anti-vaxxers are against vaccines at any age.

There may be a set of folks who want to delay vaccines by a few years, but they are not the core of the anti-vaxx crowd.

LOL. So you are not against people who are selective about which vaccine to administer and when?

Reality says

LOL. So you are not against people who are selective about which vaccine to administer and when?

I am, but I make a distinction between folks who are anti-vaccination and those are which to delay by a year.

tatupu70 says

Would they? The chances for contracting disease might be higher in a 3rd world hellhole, but the guidelines very likely would be the same. Palatine, IL is clearly an upper middle class suburb--are you going to argue that risks of vaccine side effects outweigh the risks of measles there?

There are numerous additional vaccines that are recommended for travelers to 3rd world hell holes but not recommended at all for the average American living in the US. Your presumption that the guidelines would be the same can only lead one to conclude:

1. You assert vaccines have zero risk, which is false;

2. You don't understand statistics and probability.

I have no idea where Palatin, IL is, nor is it particularly revelant unless you can prove that more people have died in that place due to not using vaccine than all vaccine deaths in all of US.

tatupu70 says

Reality says

LOL. So you are not against people who are selective about which vaccine to administer and when?

I am, but I make a distinction between folks who are anti-vaccination and those are which to delay by a year.

Why only a year? Even CDC recommend some vaccines after kids are over 4years old; some much older. You are nothing more than a mindless propagandist reading off whatever script is handed to you.

Heard something funny about vaccines the other day.....
Kid with measles goes to the doctor. The doctor tells him "If you connect all the dots, it spells....My parents are idiots"

Reality says

There are numerous additional vaccines that are recommended for travelers to 3rd world hell holes but not recommended at all for the average American living in the US. Your presumption that the guidelines would be the same can only lead one to conclude:

1. You assert vaccines have zero risk, which is false;

2. You don't understand statistics and probability.

I have no idea where Palatin, IL is, nor is it particularly revelant unless you can prove that more people have died in that place due to not using vaccine than all vaccine deaths in all of US.

True--I was thinking only of the vaccines that are recommended for folks in the US, since that's what we are discussing. So, let's get back to the point at hand--should folks in middle class suburbia, USA be required to be vaccinated against measles? Probably and statistics say yes. What say you?

tatupu70 says

There are numerous additional vaccines that are recommended for travelers to 3rd world hell holes but not recommended at all for the average American living in the US. Your presumption that the guidelines would be the same can only lead one to conclude:

1. You assert vaccines have zero risk, which is false;

2. You don't understand statistics and probability.

I have no idea where Palatin, IL is, nor is it particularly revelant unless you can prove that more people have died in that place due to not using vaccine than all vaccine deaths in all of US.

True--I was thinking only of the vaccines that are recommended for folks in the US, since that's what we are discussing. So, let's get back to the point at hand--should folks in middle class suburbia, USA be required to be vaccinated against measles? Probably and statistics say yes. What say you?

Glad you finally agree that different circumstances dictate different statistical/probabilistic optima for vaccine scheduling.

For a family making $40-50k a year living in NYC or SFBA, getting the measles vaccine at age 1 is a good idea due to likely neighborhood population density and likely use of public transportation. OTOH, for a family living on over an acre of land, not sending kid or bringing kid to any venue with recirculated air shared with hundreds of other people, holding off on the MMR to 4+ is a lower risk than risk to vaccine side effects. That's for MMR specifically. For numerous other vaccines, the risk of vaccine itself could well be higher than exposure to the disease for much longer time (until higher age), some forever until a trip to the likes of African jungle is planned.

Reality says

For numerous other vaccines, the risk of vaccine itself could well be higher than exposure to the disease for much longer time (until higher age), some forever until a trip to the likes of African jungle is planned.

OK-so you agree all children need the MMR vaccine?