patrick.net

Ironman says

We know which one is the whiner.... YOU...

Do you ever stop crying about income redistribution?? Go start your own company and take the risks and you can make the big bucks instead of being a cubicle slave like you are now!

How many times are we going to have this same stupid discussion? I'm not complaining that I don't make enough--I do fine. I'm commenting on the idiocy of someone bitching about a guy trying to make a good living. Why in the world would Strat be mad at someone for trying to make as much as he can instead of that same money going into the pockets of billionaires? Strat has swallowed the propaganda from the Koch bros. They are laughing at him. And you.

Ironman says

Probably forever... Since you, being the socialist that you are, keep bringing up the same whining about income redistribution and certain people not getting "theirs" while CEOs make all the big bucks...

Nope--not a socialist--just someone educated enough to understand that an economy cannot function well when inequality reaches current levels. You'll see monetary velocity decrease, interest rates decrease, unemployment increase, debt levels increase, and more and deeper recessions.

All of which, not surprisingly (to me at least), is happening.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

LOL. I find this very amusing. Greedy union thugs who demand a "living wage"

I find it amusing that you think Americans trying to earn a wage that can support a family are "greedy". But you seem to have no problem with people making tens of million a year while they pay the people that actually do the work $10/hour. Tell me again--which one is "greedy"?

We are all greedy to a certain extent because humans were built that way.
The only fair compensation each one of us deserves, can only be based on our contribution to the end product, as dictated by free markets. Unions just suck up more based on "living wage" excuses.
Let me ask you....do you think it's fair for Kobe to get $100,000 for a 3 hour game, while the short guy who mops up his sweat gets close to minimum?

Let me know if and when you want to have an adult conversation.

tatupu70 says

Nope--not a socialist--just someone educated enough to understand that an economy cannot function well when inequality reaches current levels. You'll see monetary velocity decrease, interest rates decrease, unemployment increase, debt levels increase, and more and deeper recessions.

All of which, not surprisingly (to me at least), is happening.

It's all a myth.
You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

bob2356 says

It doesn't weaken the corporations making millions in profits exploiting them.

That says it all from a certified card carrying member of the Anti America Club.

Strategist says

You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

Most of it's 'trickled' up as a quick look at changes in the ratio of CEO pay to employees will tell you. 331 times more on average in 2013. Their pay has increased an inflation-adjusted 1000% since 1978. Inflation-adjusted. That compares with an increase of 10.9% for the average worker. But hey, I guess you must be a socialist if you look at those figures and question whether that's really the best thing for society as a whole.

Ironman says

As soon as Tat (and his other socialists) learn that, the better they will do and complain less.

They are "greedy" No matter how much more they get, they will want more and more of a "living wage"
It's only fair that 17 year olds make enough to......

Strategist says

They are "greedy" No matter how much more they get, they will want more and more of a "living wage"

It's only fair that 17 year olds make enough to......

So it's being greedy wanting a living wage, but perfectly fine for CEOs to get a 1000% inflation-adjusted increase since 1978?

Strategist says

You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. We're not comparing Cuba to the US.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

You know what real inequality is? It's a garbage collector making $20.00 per month in Cuba, vs a garbage collector making $3,000 a month in the US. They do the same messy work, but one has benefited from the trickle down thanks to those with skills making more money, while the other one gets pissed on by politicians and revolutionaries who think they have a better system.

Most of it's 'trickled' up as a quick look at changes in the ratio of CEO pay to employees will tell you. 331 times more on average in 2013. Their pay has increased an inflation-adjusted 1000% since 1978. Inflation-adjusted. That compares with an increase of 10.9% for the average worker. But hey, I guess you must be a socialist if you look at those figures and question whether that's really the best thing for society as a whole.

Maybe some CEO's don't deserve their pay packages. I don't think NBA players deserve $50 million contracts, nor do Heavy weight boxers deserve $8 million in 20 minutes even for losing. But it's not your money, so why care? They will end up paying more tax eventually, which will trickle down to the masses.
I care more about the pensions that public employees don't deserve, but I still have to pay for, while they don't pay for my retirement.

Ironman says

And that's exactly what Tat doesn't get... he thinks everyone should be "given" more instead of "earning" more, and to accomplish that, we need to take from the 1%ers...

To get a fair or higher compensation you need to be a BIGGER asset to the operation, not a drag on the system. As soon as Tat (and his other socialists) learn that, the better they will do and complain less.

No--I get it. The thing is-you don't get what you "earn", you get what you can bargain for. The biggest assets to the organization don't earn more for themselves--they just line the pockets of the CEO and owners more. That's what you don't get.

Strategist says

They are "greedy" No matter how much more they get, they will want more and more of a "living wage"

It's only fair that 17 year olds make enough to......

That's capitalism. Do you not want to earn more?? What the f*&k is wrong with you?? The question is--do you think the guys who actually perform the service and make the products are less valuable than the guy sitting in a boardroom somewhere? 1000 times less valuable?

Strategist says

Maybe some CEO's don't deserve their pay packages. I don't think NBA players deserve $50 million contracts, nor do Heavy weight boxers deserve $8 million in 20 minutes even for losing. But it's not your money, so why care?

Because it leads to a crappy economy, high unemployment, high debt, etc. A place where my children will have a harder and harder time finding a job. That's why I care.

The question is--why DON'T you care??

Ironman says

You can't even start to bargain if you don't contribute a better benefit to the company

Yep--the problem is that you can't start to bargain even if you do these days. There are too many people fighting for too few jobs. And I think I may have mentioned why this is before...

Ironman says

They absolutely certainly do if they can display to upper management their value and can bargain accordingly... I know that works, I did it my whole career!!

I didn't think checkers at Walmart had much bargaining power. Maybe you were the exception.

Ironman says

No, I GET it, I ran my own business for a long time. That's why I keep telling you, if you don't like how you're being compensated as a wage slave employee, stop complaining and start your own company and see how much you'll think you're worth then, when you have to deal with all the day to day bullshit..

I love how the crybabies complain about CEO's but they have never been on that side of the table, are clueless and don't have the balls to step up and deal with it from that side.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way. I don't think it's practical for the US to have 200 million small business owners. We need to find a way for average working Joes to make a reasonable living too.

Ironman says

Not to the socialists like you... It's much easier to "take" from someone else who's worked long and hard to earn it, versus earning it yourself

We're talking about people in a union working hard every day. I'm not advocating welfare--just finding a way to ensure that guys who work hard aren't exploited by large corporations.

Strategist says

But it's not your money, so why care? They will end up paying more tax eventually, which will trickle down to the masses.

Their pay doesn't come from thin air, does it? You and I are paying for their salaries. And it doesn't trickle down. That is the whole point. That is why the middle class has been gutted, wages have been stagnant or have fallen, and the rich have become even richer. The money has flowed upwards rather than trickled down.
Strategist says

I care more about the pensions that public employees don't deserve, but I still have to pay for, while they don't pay for my retirement.

And plenty of them do deserve it having worked difficult, and in some cases dangerous jobs. Rather the average hard working individual gets a reasonable pension than the richest in society continue to get tax breaks or even tax cuts despite getting ever richer. They should have to pay more than they are because they've gained more than their fair share over the last few decades.

Ever since Reagan Crushed the Unions, the standard of living for Americans has skyrocketed!

Ever since we allowed unskilled mass immigration, the bottom 50% are wallowing in pay increases and unlimited jobs created by the immigrants and their trickle-down employers!

Once we crush the public sector Unions and eliminate all restrictions on illegal immigrants, the economy will skyrocket and the bottom 90% will really be on Easy Street!

Bigsby says

Most of it's 'trickled' up as a quick look at changes in the ratio of CEO pay to employees will tell you. 331 times more on average in 2013.

Then why don't you become a CEO??? Or some other skill, trade or talent that they will pay you for? You know how much a CEO makes? He makes as much as they will pay him (or her). He asks for a level of pay, they pay him or offer him some other sum, he accepts it or he doesn't and quits. Companies look at what other CEO's in other companies DO for those companies (like make profits) and offer that CEO a large wage to get him away from his old company to come work for them - that's called a talent.

So what is stopping you? Get your MBA, start your own business, make it a success, sell it for an obscene amount of money, get hired by some other company for a large sum of money to help make their business profitable. See how simple it is?

Would you accept $100,000 a day for your services if someone offered? What if someone else (who wanted you more) offered you $200,000 a day? Would you take it? Your argument has no merit, it has no substance. Go join your buddy in Seattle who made everyone's pay $70K a year, regardless of if you are answering emails all day or bringing in large budget clients.

tatupu70 says

We're talking about people in a union working hard every day. I'm not advocating welfare--just finding a way to ensure that guys who work hard aren't exploited by large corporations.

If the large corporations don't put up the bucks, there is no HARD WORK to be had. Corporations don't put up money unless there is a good chance to make some money on the project/business. You don't make sense.

You are worth what someone offers and what you accept. LOOK, I deal with union and non-union workers every day. If a union carpenter is charging (per union contract) $20 an hour to pound nails and I can get a non-union man to do it for $15 an hour, I want/need to make money, I'll hire the non-union guy. If he does crap work, I get rid of him and get another. If all $15 an hour people are crap, I raise the price to $17 an hour in an effort to get better help. If no one will work for $15 an hour, I have to raise it to $17 an hour just to get people to apply. It's bargaining - this is what I want to pay, if no one will take the job, or if those who take it suck, I raise the rate. On the other side, if someone offers me $15 an hour for a job, I am free to turn it down. Maybe they find someone at that wage but the work, the person suck. If he comes back to me and asks how much I want, I'll undercut the union and ask for $19 an hour. He takes it or he doesn't. You don't like the wage or the job - you quit, it's really quite simple.

Strategist says

bob2356 says

It doesn't weaken the corporations making millions in profits exploiting them.

That says it all from a certified card carrying member of the Anti America Club.

Corporations obeying the law is anti america? I thought conservatives were big on law and order. Patriot act and all that. What else do you consider anti america in your bizzaro world?

Ironman says

"Working hard" and unions don't even belong in the same sentence or paragraph...

Union workers are the BIGGEST slugs in the workforce.. They're the bottom of the 80% are the biggest "takers" of all!!

Awesome. Why don't you go down to your local laborers union hall, tag along with them for a few days and see what you think. Who am I kidding, you wouldn't last 20 minutes before you'd be calling for your Mommy.

mmmarvel says

If the large corporations don't put up the bucks, there is no HARD WORK to be had. Corporations don't put up money unless there is a good chance to make some money on the project/business. You don't make sense.

Did corporations put up money in the 50s and 60s when workers made a living wage? Didn't seem that was a problem then.

mmmarvel says

You are worth what someone offers and what you accept

So, you're OK with the contined exploitation of the US workers by large corporations. What happens when there are many, many people competing for your job and suddenly you're worth a lot less?

Ironman says

Unfortunately, the socialists here will never understand any parts of those two posts. They just "expect" to be paid because they're "entitled" to get paid, doesn't matter if they provide any value to the employer. Being valuable isn't important to them, just give me my damn paycheck!!

I get that you are OK with exploitation of workers. But I also get that it becomes a race to the bottom and that it is extremely harmful to the overall economy.

Something you clearly don't understand.

Ironman says

I'd fall asleep only working 2 or 3 hours a day like they do... totally boring, and non-productive...

lol--you'd be passed out in 2-3 hours probably. You would NEVER make it through 1 day. That much I can guarantee.

I don't understand how you guys can't get this. When people can't make a decent wage, they can't afford to buy anything. When nobody can afford to buy anything, there is no reason to produce anything. When there's no need to produce anything, people get laid off. When people get laid off, they have even less money to spend. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Stop focusing on my posts as if I'm complaining because I don't make enough money. Look at the big picture. That's what i'm talking about.

Ironman says

Since you're a "taker", you'll NEVER understand how to make yourself valuable to your employer, and make more money... You'll whine and cry about income inequality until the day they put you in a pine box...

So sad....

Iron--why do you continue this nonsense.. You know where I lived when I was in NJ. It sure as hell wasn't in Ocean county.

Ironman says

The big picture is that ANY employee is responsible for their level of income. It's in THEIR hands, not the employers hands...

You don't get that and just expect employers to shell out more money, just because....

Tell you what, next time you go to the grocery store and your bill is $100., give the store $200., just because....

Nope--that's the small picture. Try again.

tatupu70 says

That's capitalism. Do you not want to earn more?? What the f*&k is wrong with you?? The question is--do you think the guys who actually perform the service and make the products are less valuable than the guy sitting in a boardroom somewhere? 1000 times less valuable?

Yes I do. They are worth less because they don't have the same skills. Ask yourself ....why would a company even want to pay someone a 1000 times more than the average worker? Some of the 18 year old brats are not worth $10.00. I've seen how they work. I would not even pay them 10 cents an hour. They come to work when they feel like, freak looking skinheads who can't even spell their names. If they were my slaves, I would give them their freedom just to get rid of them.

Bigsby says

Their pay doesn't come from thin air, does it? You and I are paying for their salaries. And it doesn't trickle down. That is the whole point. That is why the middle class has been gutted, wages have been stagnant or have fallen, and the rich have become even richer. The money has flowed upwards rather than trickled down.

Don't believe those myths. If nothing trickled down, the garbage man would have the same standard of living as a Sudanese who does the exact same work.

Bigsby says

And plenty of them do deserve it having worked difficult, and in some cases dangerous jobs.

Those who deserve it can have it. The rest don't. They work in slow motion, and snore in fast motion right on their desk.

Bigsby says

Rather the average hard working individual gets a reasonable pension than the richest in society continue to get tax breaks or even tax cuts despite getting ever richer.

Not a reason for me to pay their pensions when they don't pay mine.

Strategist says

Don't believe those myths. If nothing trickled down, the garbage man would have the same standard of living as a Sudanese who does the exact same work.

It's not a myth. The myth is that the policies introduced with Thatcherism/Reaganomics have done what they claimed they would do. They haven't. They have, however, enriched a small minority at the expense of everyone else.

Strategist says

Those who deserve it can have it. The rest don't. They work in slow motion, and snore in fast motion right on their desk.

Strange that that approach from you doesn't seem to apply to those in the private sector.

Strategist says

Not a reason for me to pay their pensions when they don't pay mine.

Fine, then stop paying taxes and see where that gets you and your country.

Strategist says

Yes I do. They are worth less because they don't have the same skills. Ask yourself ....why would a company even want to pay someone a 1000 times more than the average worker? Some of the 18 year old brats are not worth $10.00. I've seen how they work. I would not even pay them 10 cents an hour. They come to work when they feel like, freak looking skinheads who can't even spell their names. If they were my slaves, I would give them their freedom just to get rid of them.

They don't pay CEOs that kind of money in any other country (nowhere near the same), and they didn't used to do it America. Ask yourself why that is and why it changed.

mmmarvel says

Then why don't you become a CEO??? Or some other skill, trade or talent that they will pay you for? You know how much a CEO makes? He makes as much as they will pay him (or her). He asks for a level of pay, they pay him or offer him some other sum, he accepts it or he doesn't and quits. Companies look at what other CEO's in other companies DO for those companies (like make profits) and offer that CEO a large wage to get him away from his old company to come work for them - that's called a talent.

So what is stopping you? Get your MBA, start your own business, make it a success, sell it for an obscene amount of money, get hired by some other company for a large sum of money to help make their business profitable. See how simple it is?

Yes, yes, everyone can become a CEO. No-one should aspire to be engineers, doctors, researchers, teachers etc. etc. Anyway, you are completely missing the point. Feel free to try and become a CEO. I'm happy if you are a success and make money, but why does that success then have to translate in to you getting more than 300 times employee salary on AVERAGE in the US? That means the rest of the top management's salaries also reflect that. Tell me any other country in the world where that happens. It has squeezed the wages of everyone else and that negatively impacts the economy and job opportunities for the rest of society. You seem to think that is a good thing. I don't.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Don't believe those myths. If nothing trickled down, the garbage man would have the same standard of living as a Sudanese who does the exact same work.

It's not a myth. The myth is that the policies introduced with Thatcherism/Reaganomics have done what they claimed they would do. They haven't. They have, however, enriched a small minority at the expense of everyone else.

If the trickle down is a myth, how would you explain the wage differences between a garbage collector in Sudan and USA? The same garbage collector could immigrate from Sudan, do the same work, but suddenly he has all the creature comforts and luxuries invented by man. It's the same reason why illegal Mexicans keep crossing our border, the wealth created by our system trickles down and benefits all.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Those who deserve it can have it. The rest don't. They work in slow motion, and snore in fast motion right on their desk.

Strange that that approach from you doesn't seem to apply to those in the private sector.

It does not and should not apply to the private sector because they don't need my help, it's not my money, and it's none of my business. I don't tell you how to spend your money, why should I tell others? The government is my business because it's "a government of the people, for the people, by the people"

Bigsby says

Strategist says

Not a reason for me to pay their pensions when they don't pay mine.

Fine, then stop paying taxes and see where that gets you and your country.

I did not complain about paying taxes, I complained about how my money is being spent.

Bigsby says

They don't pay CEOs that kind of money in any other country (nowhere near the same), and they didn't use to do it America. Ask yourself why that is and why it changed.

I agree. I don't know why they get so much more. I don't care.

Bigsby says

Yes, yes, everyone can become a CEO. No-one should aspire to be engineers, doctors, researchers, teachers etc. etc. Anyway, you are completely missing the point. Feel free to try and become a CEO. I'm happy if you are a success and make money, but why does that success then have to translate in to you getting more than 300 times employee salary on AVERAGE in the US?

I don't think you are getting his point, Bigs. Marvel is saying...the reason why CEO's get so much more is because very few people have that ability. Most CEO's are at a genius level to begin with, and then the energy drive time sacrifice.
Marvel is stating...If being a CEO is so easy, why don't you make millions? He is right.

Strategist says

If the trickle down is a myth, how would you explain the wage differences between a garbage collector in Sudan and USA? The same garbage collector could immigrate from Sudan, do the same work, but suddenly he has all the creature comforts and luxuries invented by man. It's the same reason why illegal Mexicans keep crossing our border, the wealth created by our system trickles down and benefits all.

You keep repeating this comment as if it were some kind of proof. Trickle down in this respect refers to how the policies in recent decades would benefit everyone. They haven't. Before those policies were introduced in the 80s, were the bin men (and everyone else) getting 300 times less than their bosses? So who exactly has benefitted?

Strategist says

It does not and should not apply to the private sector because they don't need my help, it's not my money, and it's none of my business. I don't tell you how to spend your money, why should I tell others? The government is my business because it's "a government of the people, for the people, by the people"

Why not? What happens in the private sector impacts society as a whole, so it is your business. You can argue that X, Y and Z employees pension funds are too generous, but that's a distractor from you as it has nothing to do with the fact CEO and top management pay has got out of control in the US and that your belief in the miraculous power of 'trickle-down' economics hasn't actually materialized.

Strategist says

I don't think you are getting his point, Bigs. Marvel is saying...the reason why CEO's get so much more is because very few people have that ability. Most CEO's are at a genius level to begin with, and then the energy drive time sacrifice.

I do get his point and I don't accept it. That isn't the reason why CEOs get 300 times average employee salary. They weren't getting it before and aren't getting it in any other country. And most CEOs are at genius level? You are joking right? I know quite a few top managers and CEOs. I suspect even they would laugh if they heard that. Most CEOs in major companies worked their way up the ranks of that or other companies. They are generally capable and know how to play the game.

Bigsby says

but why does that success then have to translate in to you getting more than 300 times employee salary on AVERAGE in the US?

You know the answer to this, it has simply to do with the valuation of the company. If you take small biotechs, the CEOs don't make 300 times their employees salary, because their valuations are not that high. This is a direct result of the obsession with the stock market, the 401Ks poured into the stock market and the FED doing everything they can to keep the TBTFs and wall street cronies going. American companies have insane valuations, why shouldn't their CEOs make insane money? If you had let all the cruft fail in 2008, valuations and CEO salaries would have converged towards worker salaries, as in general inequality was being reduced by natural market forces. Again, you all voted for the 300x salary gap, and you keep voting for it. So don't hate the player, change the game.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

If the trickle down is a myth, how would you explain the wage differences between a garbage collector in Sudan and USA? The same garbage collector could immigrate from Sudan, do the same work, but suddenly he has all the creature comforts and luxuries invented by man. It's the same reason why illegal Mexicans keep crossing our border, the wealth created by our system trickles down and benefits all.

You keep repeating this comment as if it were some kind of proof. Trickle down in this respect refers to how the policies in recent decades would benefit everyone. They haven't. Before those policies were introduced in the 80s, were the bin men (and everyone else) getting 300 times less than their bosses? So who exactly has benefitted?

The trickle down is due to capitalism and democracy. It started way way before the 1980's.
Don't get me wrong. The future of mankind is not dependent on a few billionaires. It's dependent on what the average person can do. Invent, research, teach etc etc.
We need capitalism because of the wealth and opportunities it creates. Communism and socialism may create equality, but they don't create the wealth to progress and benefit everyone.

mell says

You know the answer to this, it has simply to do with the valuation of the company.

Sure, based on the equilibrium model, though that in itself points to the failure of trickle down. I also don't think it fully explains how salaries of top managers across the entire economy have increased well ahead of employees irrespective of the valuation of the company. These execs knowing others' salaries hasn't helped. It's created a race to the top and become self-reinforcing. Having this coupled with reduced taxes for the richest is a poor direction for society to take if it wants to maintain cohesion.

Strategist says

The trickle down is due to capitalism and democracy. It started way way before the 1980's.

Don't get me wrong. The future of mankind is not dependent on a few billionaires. It's dependent on what the average person can do. Invent, research, teach etc etc.

We need capitalism because of the wealth and opportunities it creates. Communism and socialism may create equality, but they don't create the wealth to progress and benefit everyone.

This isn't an issue of capitalism or not. I'm a capitalist. This is an issue of maintaining a cohesive society. I don't see the same level of cohesion in the US as I do in Europe and Japan for example. Having a very small minority of society soaking up more and more of the wealth as others are squeezed is simply not good for society in the long term.

Bigsby says

Strategist says

I don't think you are getting his point, Bigs. Marvel is saying...the reason why CEO's get so much more is because very few people have that ability. Most CEO's are at a genius level to begin with, and then the energy drive time sacrifice.

I do get his point and I don't accept it. That isn't the reason why CEOs get 300 times average employee salary.

So why does the board agree to give the CEO's so much money? You tell us.

Bigsby says

And most CEOs are at genius level? You are joking right? I know quite a few top managers and CEOs. I suspect even they would laugh if they heard that. Most CEOs in major companies worked their way up the ranks of that or other companies. They are generally capable and know how to play the game.

Most CEO's are at the genius level. I believe that applies mostly to the Fortune 500.
I have all the education requirements, but I am no genius. My professors knew everything in the book, but they do not have what it takes to be a CEO. I even considered becoming a professor myself, but you know what? I don't think I could even succeed at that. We all have our unique skills, and capitalism gives us the opportunity to capitalize on that. I did OK over time, nothing special, because capitalism gave me that opportunity. The same applies to everyone else.