patrick.net

Ironman says

Strategist says

You left out 2 other qualifications, which you meet:


4. Housing appreciation that can make you wealthy.

But you're missing this part:

He can stay in CA and pay $4K - $5K a month on a mortgage payment...

or

He moves to GA and pays $2K a month on a mortgage payment and invests the other $2K - $3K a month that he would be blowing on the mortgage payment in CA in a nice index fund.

Where does he end up better off??

California is the easy answer.
The $5,000 per month gets him a $1 million home, with lots of tax write offs, and in 10 to 12 years it will be worth $2 million.
The $2,000 or so mortgage in Atlanta will get him less tax benefits, and a third of the appreciation.
The higher appreciation is the number one factor that makes California worth every penny. example....My aunt in a small town in Illinois built a custom home 18 years ago on a golf course for $400,000. She can't sell the well kept home for even $375,000 today. Homes in So Cal have increased about 3 fold since then. Now tell me, which place will lead you to being better off?

Ironman says

Strategist says

5. Weather you are guaranteed to miss.

The weather isn't bad in GA and you can swim in the ocean without turning blue!

I have visited friends in North Atlanta. Summer is very humid, winter is cold and wet. I love the woods in Atlanta, but California is better. No one from Atlanta will drive from Atlanta for a dip in the ocean.
Joshua, I do not mean to discourage your move. I'm sure it was a good move based on your circumstances. You sound very happy, and I am happy for you. I am only debating my crazy friends on Patnet for the fun of it, because this is what we do on Patnet. I wish you and all the best. The freedom do make choices, and the freedom to move are some of the benefits a country like ours offers, and what contributes to us being Number One.

Strategist says

5. Weather you are guaranteed to miss

Not sure if I agree. Cold mornings and cold and windy afternoons. The central coast is a fog bank half the time. From 9am-12pm was the sweet spot but when you have to work you don't get to enjoy it.

Swimming? Only indoor pools in the Monterey area. Otherwise you'll freeze your ass off.

Believe it or not, my wife and I were tired of the weather.

Ironman says

He moves to GA and pays $2K a month on a mortgage payment and invests the other $2K - $3K a month that he would be blowing on the mortgage payment in CA in a nice index fund.

Wrong. Pay cash for the place. Then save 95% of my six figure salary and 100% of what my LLC makes.

I drive a civic now but was joking to my wife that I may just buy a Porsche for the hell of it.

joshuatrio says

Ironman says

He moves to GA and pays $2K a month on a mortgage payment and invests the other $2K - $3K a month that he would be blowing on the mortgage payment in CA in a nice index fund.

Wrong. Pay cash for the place. Then save 95% of my six figure salary and 100% of what my LLC makes.

I drive a civic now but was joking to my wife that I may just buy a Porsche for the hell of it.

So you can pay cash for a home in Atlanta, and you drive a Civic. Sounds to me like you should be the one giving advice.

Strategist says

I have visited friends in North Atlanta. Summer is very humid, winter is cold and wet. I love the woods in Atlanta, but California is better. No one from Atlanta will drive from Atlanta for a dip in the ocean.

Joshua, I do not mean to discourage your move. I'm sure it was a good move based on your circumstances.

All good. No offense taken.

I agree that the west coast offers more in terms of natural beauty. I hike, cycle and surf so this was a big decision for us.

However. I loved in Monterey and spent many weekends down big sur, yosemite, Tahoe and so forth. Sure the coast and the sierras are beautiful but everything else in the state is a dump/wasteland/desert - which is about 80% of the state. Not to mention, I drove through 11 states getting out here and the roads in CA were the worst. The minute I got out of state, my car felt like a new car because of the roads.

lostand confused says

It is called Hotlanta for a reason

Which is why you don't live in Atlanta itself. The suburbs are very nice, upscale and clean. Look at Marietta and Kennesaw. That's my plan.

I've driven all over the Atlanta burbs and have yet to see piles of trash all over the sides of the roads or large hoards of homeless people which were common sights in CA.

joshuatrio says

Not to mention, I drove through 11 states getting out here and the roads in CA were the worst

This is true. I live in the upper Midwest, with snow and salt on roads and snow ploughs-and the roads here are far better. Just a shame. Maybe the road money goes to the 300# welfare freaks.

joshuatrio says

Which is why you don't live in Atlanta itself. The suburbs are very nice, upscale and clean. Look at Marietta and Kennesaw. That's my plan.

I lived in Lawrenceville for 6 months-still hot. But much better than Midwest!

Ironman says

Strategist says

The $5,000 per month gets him a $1 million home,

What if you don't have the salary/income to afford a $5k mortgage payment?

Buy a half million dollar condo, and let that double.

Ironman says

Strategist says

The $2,000 or so mortgage in Atlanta will get him less tax benefits, and a third of the appreciation.

and he'll need a third of the income to pay for it, which means he can enjoy life and not be a wage slave to pay for the house.

You are assuming bigger homes bring more happiness. Not so.

Ironman says

Strategist says

and in 10 to 12 years it will be worth $2 million.

So, in 10 years, you think that house will double in value? Really? There will be people in the next 10 years (based on the last 10 years) that will be able to afford a $10K a month mortgage?

Yup. Most buyers will use their equity to move up. Income is not always relevant to high net worth families.

Ironman says

Will wages double in the next ten years or will mortgage rates be declining by a lot?

I doubt if wages will double in the next 10 years. The net worth of Californians and Americans will explode. Chinese, Indians and other Asians will buy like crazy.

well, this is a wise choice. well done. not many people can leave for one reason or another. you will miss it here but there are enough positives to counter that feeling. with all of the extra money there is always a resort suite on the coast that will welcome your business.

joshuatrio says

While the traffic sucks, I'm near bike trails that will get me directly to work.

Traffic sucks everywhere.

i really do love the coastline in the west.

Exactly how is the West Coast any different from some other coast, except for the west coast colder water temperature.

McAllen, TX....40 minute drive to the gulf for beach activities....5 minute ride to Reynosa for $10 hookers and $10 ounces...
course you need to smoke the whole ounce to get high, but that's besides the point.

I do have to say though, as a CA resident, money doesn't go as far as it should out here. It's easier to make money in CA, but it's value is much less if spent in CA. There is always a trade off somewhere.

Ironman says

But they still will be able to buy today's $1 million home for $2 million in 10 years (and have the 20% ($400K) available for the down payment?

No, you don't get my point. Those who benefit from stocks, investments, business owners, rich foreigners, and those with existing real estate holdings will easily afford those homes. It's not always income that counts, but the assets and net worth a family owns can also count.

FortWayne says

I do have to say though, as a CA resident, money doesn't go as far as it should out here. It's easier to make money in CA, but it's value is much less if spent in CA. There is always a trade off somewhere.

Make money in California, and spend it elsewhere. Now that's a plan.

Strategist says

The $5,000 per month gets him a $1 million home, with lots of tax write offs, and in 10 to 12 years it will be worth $2 million.

The $2,000 or so mortgage in Atlanta will get him less tax benefits, and a third of the appreciation.

I'm guessing that you haven't heard of AMT and don't make enough money for it to matter. If you make good money AMT wipes out your tax write offs totally.

SoftShell says

McAllen, TX....40 minute drive to the gulf for beach activities....5 minute ride to Reynosa for $10 hookers and $10 ounces...

course you need to smoke the whole ounce to get high, but that's besides the point.

Why would you want to be 40 minutes away from the beach in McAllen? Laguna Vista, Laguna Heights, and Port Isabel are dirt cheap right on the Laguna Madre. Like 350k waterfront with a dock. http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/918-Trout-Ave_Port-Isabel_TX_78578_M89863-72384?row=1&ex=TX604215807. A 2 minute drive puts you in south padre for surf, sand, sun, and nightlife. Bonus points, lawn, pool, domestic help is incredibly cheap.

Matamoros has better hookers than Reynosa I've been told.

bob2356 says

I'm guessing that you haven't heard of AMT and don't make enough money for it to matter. If you make good money AMT wipes out your tax write offs totally.

Smart people pay no taxes.

Strategist says

Smart people pay no taxes.

So the smartest people are the homeless then?

Thanks for the post Josh, been thinking about moving myself for years. The only reason we're still here is our income has increased faster than taxes/cost of living, and our rent is $300/month under market.

The federal taxes are the ones I really want to get away from though, meaning a much bigger move...

Welcome to The Bay Area, Cool And Hip, ground zero for Obnoxious Folks from all over the USA and all over the world.

Here's Another Obnoxious Phenotype easily found in the Bay Area: The Obnoxious A**hole who will argue to prove you wrong (and being stupid) for not "building Bay Area house equity" in tradeoff for so many other quality of life aspects. Hah-hah! Gotcha you Podunk Devil.
Too much time focusing on The Equity and The Cool and Hip Silicon Valley career, and we may find ourselves scraping the flesh of our teenager from the Caltrain Rails, or blaming everyone and everything else but ourselves when they get caught and disciplined for cheating on exams.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Here's Another Obnoxious Phenotype easily found in the Bay Area: The Obnoxious A**hole who will argue to prove you wrong (and being stupid) for not "building Bay Area house equity" in tradeoff for so many other quality of life aspects

---So the smartest people are the homeless then?---
...The DUMBEST people are homeless.....

Why do I always have to fix Dan's screw ups?

Build Bay Area Home Equity, or BE HOMELESS, you dumbest haolie!

Strategist says

Smart people pay no taxes.

I always suspected you were in prison.

NuttBoxer says

Thanks for the post Josh, been thinking about moving myself for years. The only reason we're still here is our income has increased faster than taxes/cost of living, and our rent is $300/month under market.

We were sorta in the same boat. Incomes kept rising and our LLC took off, but our rent was not under market and it kept increasing. Plus, the property management companies we've used in CA have been horrendous and we were tired of dealing with them all.

Ultimately we just want a flexible lifestyle, paid off house and to be self employed. In California, we were doing fine on our LLC income, but it always felt like I had to maintain a typical career in IT because the cost of living seems to keep going up and we like saving $$ each month - not spending.

Like I said, I love the coast, but it just wasn't worth it to us. Plus the pay raise I got and relo bonus were enough to tip us to make the move.

Right now, it is mostly about finances, because being mortgage free will allow us a more flexible lifestyle so we can do whatever we want - rather than having to work for the man long term.

We were on the central coast 8 years. The last 2-3 we were really considering moving. Keeping your west coast salary and enjoying it on the east coast is a wonderful thing

Dan8267 says

So the smartest people are the homeless then?

I would say they are pretty damn smart. The "bush man" on the wharf in San Fransisco makes $70k a year, tax free, and just scares people for a living.

Because he has no real income, he gets free healthcare, section 8 housing voucher, wic, food stamps and all sorts of government aid.

This guy doesn't report to anyone, takes home 100% of his income and gets everything else for free - while the rest of us slave away and try to do things the "right way."

You tell me who's smarter?

joshuatrio says

I'm near bike trail

Metro Atlanta has bike trails???

zzyzzx says

Metro Atlanta has bike trails???

Shocking isn't it? I didn't think they had any bike infrastructure - but they actually have a pretty large multi-trail system that is only getting better (according to the bike shop). I can make a 12 mile bike commute with about 8 of it on dedicated trail, and the other 4 miles through residential.

I was also told that there is a trail that runs to Alabama (not sure where) that is 40-50 miles in length.

Ironman says

He moves to GA and pays $2K a month on a mortgage payment

That 2K/month number might be on the high side there.

joshuatrio says

Shocking isn't it? I didn't think they had any bike infrastructure - but they actually have a pretty large multi-trail system that is only getting better (according to the bike shop). I can make a 12 mile bike commute with about 8 of it on dedicated trail, and the other 4 miles through residential.

I was also told that there is a trail that runs to Alabama (not sure where) that is 40-50 miles in length.

I used to live in Atlanta (Chamblee - Dunwoody - Doraville area) and I rode my bicycle all over. Never saw a bicycle trail anywhere, but that was in the 80's.

zzyzzx says

That 2K/month number might be on the high side there.

Depending on the terms 15/30year, yeah that's high. Really high.

You can live in your 500k plus mcmansions if you want, but what's the point?

Hell, we could buy a big ass 4,000 sq ft monster, for $300k, but there is no need to have a house that big with a medium sized family.

I'm looking in the $200-250k range. Maybe less if I can find something nice.

Ironman says

Strategist says

---So the smartest people are the homeless then?---


...The DUMBEST people are homeless.....

and the ones paying rent in Boca Raton.

If you make $100K + and live in Florida, a state that could see higher home appreciation rates than California, have no hungry kids to feed, and drive an old car, then where do you spend your money? Buy a condo. What's wrong with you, Dan?

zzyzzx says

I used to live in Atlanta (Chamblee - Dunwoody - Doraville area)

No way! Me, too.

We were in Dunwoody (Redfield is a great neighborhood if you're taking suggestions on neighborhoods). I loved Atlanta. Lived there about five years. I didn't find the summers to be too ridiculous. And the rest of the year is pretty perfect. Typically, just a dusting or two of snow a year... Enough to feel winter... But not so much that you will ever have to wield a shovel. And Spring is gorgeous. The whole state blooms. Just make sure you have your allergy medicine handy if pollen is a problem for you.

joshuatrio says

I would say they are pretty damn smart. The "bush man" on the wharf in San Fransisco makes $70k a year, tax free, and just scares people for a living.

Because he has no real income, he gets free healthcare, section 8 housing voucher, wic, food stamps and all sorts of government aid.

This guy doesn't report to anyone, takes home 100% of his income and gets everything else for free -

They don't have these generous benefits in Georgia, that's why you don't see those sights. You get what you subsidize.

joshuatrio says

I've driven all over the Atlanta burbs and have yet to see piles of trash all over the sides of the roads or large hoards of homeless people which were common sights in CA.

turtledove says

No way! Me, too.

We were in Dunwoody

Actually when I moved to Atlanta in 1969, Dunwoody hadn't been invented yet. It was Chamblee before that (Peachtree Industrial Blvd @ Tilly Mill Rd area; I think there is a Home Depot there now).

I lived in Atlanta for 20 years, and IMO, it's a pretty fucking boring place to live. Having said that, since you are moving from CA, you might not notice the difference, and I'm sure it's better now than when I left in 1989. That and I was really sick of the place. At least you didn't move to Raleigh, that place is much worse and probably more expensive than Atlanta. I've lived there too.

zzyzzx says

I lived in Atlanta for 20 years, and IMO, it's a pretty fucking boring place to live.

I guess that just depends on where a person is in his life. I had just had two children... so for me, boring and family oriented was right up my alley. My 21-year-old stepson, on the other hand, would agree with you completely.

bob2356 says

Strategist says

Smart people pay no taxes.

I always suspected you were in prison.

That parking ticket I got 8 years ago finally caught up with me. :(

Strategist says

That parking ticket I got 8 years ago finally caught up with me. :(

In CA, the fines and interest must be worth 5k now!