patrick.net

Randy H said: "No thank you. I guess I’ll just keep shilling for evil corporate guy Big Bro. How dare companies like Monsantos dare try to improve yields of things people need to live. Bastards."

I don't think Monsanto does much with vegetables, even commercial vegetables. Also, most of the vegetable breeding nowadays goes to handling quality, appearance, disease packages (less of a concern for backyard gardeners than people who plant by the acre) and uniform ripening (so they can picked at the same time mechanically. For the backyard gardener, the older varieties tend to be tastier and better yielding. Most of the truck gardening and backyard gardening favorites are from 50 years or more back.

requiem Says:
DS: variation on a quote from Tom De Mulder (you don’t know him), using the same phrasing as the more well-known Jaws quote “We’re gonna need a bigger boat”.

oh, you're so clever...

How dare companies like Monsantos dare try to improve yields of things people need to live. Bastards.

they also try to breed seed stock that can't be re-used, i.e. has sterile offspring, so you will have to keep going back to them every year to buy more seed for next year's crop. not to mention the risks of potentially dangerous GM crops they keep working on and known lack of quarantine issues when testing them literally 'in the field'... maybe they are bastards! 8O

Glen, Randy,

HARM-X industries has already developed the perfect solution to the Whole Foods smug/organic/GMO controversey: Soylent Boomerâ„¢. It's 100% organic (aside from latent chemicals ingested/snorted/injected by the Boomers themselves), is non-GM, high in protein and goes great with Victory Gin! Try our new line of Ben & Jerry's*.

*Not ice cream, but the actual Ben & Jerry.

I dislike Whole Foods because I can't afford it and they don't focus on local produce (to cut down transportation inefficiencies). I also don't like the people they cater to - they tend to be consumerist, holier-than-thou and not particularly educated about the food they buy.

I prefer local farm markets. The produce are usually sustainably grown (often organic in fact if not in certification) and the money goes directly to support small farmers (there are some resellers so it pays to ask if the sellers grew the produce themselves).

It has also, however, been shown that the nutrient levels in organic produce are higher than in industrially farmed produce. Whether you are willing to pay the premium for this is a personal choice.

Whole Foods is just as profit driven as Monsanto. They have a strong incentive to cheat. Sure, studies may have shown that organic foods are healthier--but how do I know that the carrots I pick up at Whole Foods are actually grown in the same way as the carrots in the study? How can I verify it? Anyone can slap the word "Organic" on the label--the FDA is not likely to bat an eyelash. How does Whole Foods make sure that their suppliers don't cheat? Are the vegetables really healthier, or is it all in the mind of the consumer?

By the way, it is interesting to note that the source of the recent e coli outbreak was organically grown spinach. Contrary to popular belief, organically grown sprouts (not beef) have been shown to be the greatest source of e coli infections in recent years. I will take my chances with the trace chemicals in my "non-organic" food over the increased chance of a virulent bacterial or fungal infection. Especially when I can get my veggies for half the price.

(3) Ludditism: Organics make a big deal about being “Non-GMO.” Yet no one has ever shown GMO foods to be dangerous.

except for the tryptophan scare. well, alright, GM bacteria that make tryptophan as a metabolite... don't worry, it's as safe as nucular! or houses...

A wider debate needs to take place on whether the agribusiness model is actually sustainable. The “green revolution” of massively increasing yields since WW2 has been predicated on petrochemically-derived fertilizers and pesticides. This is arguably (extremely) unsustainable. There is also not a widespread understanding of how yields of biofuels rely on these petro-subsidies.

Well, unless you find a way to replace the massively increased yields, a lot more people will go hungry. It may be unsustainable, but until we find something better, we are probably stuck with the current agribusiness model.

and it has been shown that the bio-availability of nutrients is improved by cooking, which rather damages the raw food movement claims.

sometimes, but heating can also sometimes destroy or denature nutrients such as Vit C. it just depends...

@ Randy H:
(sigh)...I've told myself a thousand times not ot exaggerate. Make that 'punnets' then.
Put it this way, when confronted with yet another bag of tomatoes, potatoes or zucchini at the end of a productive summer, most of my friends would either bolt, or get the same look in their eyes as they would upon hearing thier grannie's hystrectomy story for the fourth time. Sometimes you just can't even give it away.

@Astrid:
Sadly, i'm not growing much at the moment. I had some heirloom tomatoes and peppers in pots earlier on this year, but due to my rush to the UK in june (when my mother passed ) they all died in 100 degree heat when the husband forgot to water them. He is not a garden-minded man.

Technically, I could start doing it again in the rental, but due to the fact that we don't know how long we'll be here, and our promise to the landlord to leave the place in the same condition we found it in (spotless), I'm reluctant to dig up the swathes of lawn that they so lovingly covered the back yard in.
Which is why I'm so intrested in buying a place with a bit of land, when we buy.
One day I hope to sell organic heirloom tomatoes and almonds from my own orchard at the Santa Monica Farmers Market. The husband thinks I'm on crack. But a girl's gotta dream, even if its only a methamphetmaine induced one... ;-)

@requiem:
My vegetable growing was done in a very nothern latitude, where we had real seasons, so I'm not sure when/what to grow over here.
But I'd reckon that most of the Brassica family (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, brussell sprouts, etc..) would be a good thing to grow over the winter.
Carrots too, and potatoes, but I'd wait until the weather cools down a bit - almost said 'by the first frost' - but you don't get frosts in CA, do you? Potatoes grown in heat tend to bolt, give inferior yields and get blight more easily - they like cold damp climates. The BA after November would probalby be OK.

Maybe I should set up a gardening blog....:-)

I don't think organic or not organic makes any different in E Coli infections rates. Irradiation would help and so would careful washing immediately before consumption.

In any case, it's a bad idea to feed raw green leafy vegetables to the very young and the very old.

I'd heard, but don't know if its true, that the e.coli,/i> was due to the farmers using untreated cow manure on the spinach - its part of the normal intestinal fauna for cows.
Nice that its organic, but make sure to pasteurise to poop first before spraying, please.

Sorry for the italic snafu.

On a serious note, I don't think all concerns about GMO crops are entirely Luddite in nature or unfounded. As DS pointed out, the aim of the companies that produce GMOs (Monsanto, etc.) is not entirely benevolent/altruistic --"Terminator" seeds being a notorious example.

It's true that to some extent, humans have been tinkering with the gene pool for many centuries, through animal husbandry, selective breeding, horticulture cross-pollination, etc. However, prior to the genetics revolution, people have never produced an organism that could not have arisen independently through the natural processes (evolution or breeding). By splicing insect & plant DNA, or mammal and fish DNS, for example, we are taking selective breeding to a whole new level.

As DS also pointed out, the long-term risks of releasing GMO spores/seeds in the wild are essentially unknowable. We are tinkering with the very blueprint of life itself, and doing so without any viable controls or ability to quarantine the results. This is not to say that everything produced by GM methods is bad/harmful, just that we don't fully understand the risks of doing so, nor have a good containment strategy if things go seriously awry.

except for the tryptophan scare. well, alright, GM bacteria that make tryptophan as a metabolite… don’t worry, it’s as safe as nucular! or houses

Is this obscure reference to a 17 year old outbreak involving dietary supplements the best evidence that GMO foods are dangerous? If so, I feel even better about eating GMO foods.

Although some might dispute this point, I do not think dietary supplements should be considered "food." I agree that disclosure and transparency are good things--if people want to avoid GMO foods, they should have the ability to do so. But I don't think this story shows GMO foods to be dangerous any more than the recent e coli outbreak shows spinach to be dangerous.

Requiem,

Peas and fava beans would do well in CA's long winter. Onions and garlic can also be planted now for sprng harvest next year. Brussel sprouts, collard, kale are all good (I tend to find cabbages and broccolis to not be worth the effort, they're cheaper on sale), especially if you live in slightly colder areas where you'd get a couple frosts in late December - February. Beets and radishes are also good quick gratification crops.

Oh yeah, and lettuce and mixed salad greens!

Those "organic" farmers probably didn't bother to properly age the manure before spreading it on food crops. Properly composted manure will produce a lot heat and kill most of the bacteria.

HARM,

I am not going to defend Monsanto's business practices. I do think that they have every right to engineer proprietary seed products. However, to the extent that they engineer "terminator" seeds, which create negative externalities, they should be exposed to civil liability to their victims in order to assure that they are forced to internalize these negative externalities and to discourage the use of terminator seeds in the future.

Speedingpullet,

If it's any comfort, I've read that this wasn't a good year for tomatoes and peppers, so your husband may have just saved you some heartache latter on.

On the subject of Monsanto's business practices/ethics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#As_Plaintiff

"In a high profile case in Canada, Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser, went to the Supreme Court level, Monsanto sued an independent farmer, Percy Schmeiser, for patent infringement for growing genetically modified Roundup resistant canola. The case, begun in 1998, shaped up in the media as a classic David-and-Goliath confrontation, with Schmeiser as the wronged little guy, facing the implacable Big Corporation. Essentially, a part of Schmeiser's canola crop, grown from seed he had bred over many decades, was accidentally contaminated with Monsanto's GE canola, likely by seed escaping from passing trucks. The Supreme Court issued their decision in May 2004 and one can view the decision as a draw. The Court determined that Monsanto's patent is valid, but Schmeiser is not forced to pay Monsanto anything as he did not profit from the presence of Roundup Ready canola in his fields. This issue started with Monsanto demanding Schmeiser pay the $15/acre technology fee and in the end, Schmeiser did not have to pay. The court did not impose punitive damages on Schmeiser, as may have been expected in a patent infringement case, and the decision did not absolve Monsanto of responsibility for genetic contamination, or even consider that aspect. The case did cause Monsanto's aggressively litigious tactics to be highlighted in the media over the years it took to play out."

SP,

I really like Jon's $46K number for a BooHoo type unit of accounting. We even have a standard index to fall back on (rather than chasing after Ha Ha's wildly successful yet not sufficiently successful career).

Gosh, wouldn't Schmeiser have a counterclaim against Monsanto for polluting his seed stock?

Gosh, wouldn’t Schmeiser have a counterclaim against Monsanto for polluting his seed stock?

One would think so, but something tells me Monsanto's lawyers had deeper pockets than Schmeiser's.

A couple of class action lawsuits will bring Monsanto to its knees.

Jon,

I'm way too cheap to shop at Ross. I get my undergarments at Costco and everything else at outlet stores on sale (typically March, July and February have the best markdowns).

And my boyfriend will actually wear Kirkland branded jeans. That's how ghetto he is. (Oh no, Citizen HARM is now really gonna come for his ass)

astrid Says:

> And my boyfriend will actually wear Kirkland
> branded jeans. That’s how ghetto he is. (Oh
> no, Citizen HARM is now really gonna come
> for his ass)

Astrid does not have to worry about her boyfriend comming out of the closet some day since no gay guy alive will ever wear Kirkland jeans.

My sister and her friends worry about guys that wear jeans that cost over $100 and say that when they see a guy wearign jeans that cost over $200 they are 99% sure he is gay...

Harm,

Please could you elaborate on what technologies you use to filter the implanted non-organic materials of the boomer body-remodelling? And are the boomers humanely slaughtered, or do you ignore boomer-welfare in the early stages of processing?

Silicone and other impurities are carefully removed from the expired Boomer corpse--er, "vessels" prior to processing. Most of it is saved for re-use in packaging, thus minimizing waste and protecting the environment. Big Boomer loves His planet.

Boomers are never harmed in any way in the processing of Soylent Boomerâ„¢. Freshly dead Boomer vessels are typically retrieved from industrial accidents or from the many voluntary Euthanizing stations conveniently located around our fair cities. Despite what some wild-eyed reactionaries may tell you, it's pure cooincidence that most of these unfortunate accidents tend to occur at NAR re-education camps.

Citizen HARM

"Ghetto" or "Ghetto-fabulous"?

Ross is, hands down, the best place to buy mens belts, ties, underwear and shoes (when in stock). Belts and ties are $10 (usually $20 plus at dept stores). Dress shoes are around $40 (usually $80+ at dept stores). The problem is that selection is limited and you can't always get what you are looking for.

JC Penney also has a pretty good "house brand" for affordable underwear and dress shirts (usually on sale) for hassle-free cheap shopping.

@astrid,

RE Kirkland jeans: Your boyfriend has nothing to fear, as long as he buys enough of them.

Re my last post: so much for post-consumerism.

I think all this chit chat illustrate the problem with going sheerly by dollar amounts to measure overall utility gains. Anti-biotics and clean water are two huge quality of life improvements in the modern world world, but they occupy a very small dollar amount of the economy.

FAB,

Thanks for your confidence. Though when I see a guy wearing $100+ jeans, I think he's an idiot and high maintenance (or has a significant other who is an idiot and/or high maintenance). I haven't thought about the sexual preference angle.

HARM,

So I guess I shouldn't tell you that 50% of his wardrob is composed of freebie T-shirts from college, career fairs and work.

He's actually quite willing to spend money if he feels he's getting his money's worth, he just needs to be convinced first.

Muggy,

Congrats! I recommend checking out NOLO's book on tenant rights. That could come in handy when dealing with FB landlords.

http://tinyurl.com/4qz8b

SFWoman,

I think the short answer to your question is that Whole Foods deals in scale. Even if they can get cheaper inventory locally, they tend to seek out larger contracts so they can supply all their stores at once. This why many long time organic farmers do not like Whole Foods and Costco's organic product lines. They think the mass produced organics goes against the original spirit of the organic movement.

When I grew up in Southern Maryland, I found the best supermarket for local produce was a relatively cheap local chain. Because they are relatively small and local, they tend to buy local corn, tomato and peaches that taste good and costs less!

Ironically, I find some of the freshest and cheapest vegetables from Asian grocery stores. They tend to be smaller and more local, so they often buy locally and offer the best deals to their customers.

Why own a low end condo at all? Those things depreciated like crazy during the last cycle.

Apt renting gives the renter all the inconvience of condo living (cheap construction, noisy neighbors on all sides, cramped parking) without the transaction cost.

Too many relatively responsible young people have been snookered into buying condos to get on the "homeownership ladder". Well, guess what kids, all those steps above and below you are falling away and you're stuck in the middle of a very uncomfortable position.

"you can get like twenty fuji apples at those places for $5."

Yeah, and they're not puny American supermarket apples but gargantuan monsters the size of a newborn's head. Persimmons and Asian pears are also coming onto the market, yum.

I find Costco to be a superior deal for many produce like cherries (they may not be the cheapest but they tend to be the best quality because they're pre-boxed and straight from the PNW), grapes out of season(pre-boxed and direct from Chile), pineapples (straight from Hawaii) and bagged salad mixes. That seems to be where their greater logistics capability wins out and I appreciate the lack of wholesaler involvement.

I love Costco and my only issue would be the understandable lack of local produce and ruthless inventorying (when will they bring back the Buffalo chicken tenders and the kimchi ramen?!?!?!). Oh, and figuring out what to do with 10 lbs of chicken wings.

Astrid said:
"Irradiation would help and so would careful washing immediately before consumption."

E. Coli O157:H7 infection cannot be prevented simply by washing food....that's a common misconception. The only way to effectively kill it is to cook the food item to a temperature of at least 160F.

I spent 15 years in the food business and, in a few of them, dealt with the industry fallout from the Jack in the Box outbreak in the NW. It was HORRIBLE....people died, including several kids.

If anyone likes "natural" or "organic" foods....great....just know the risks you are taking and find out what you can do to lessen the chance of infection by any number of food borne pathogens.

Maybe you don't want to know this but the most dangerous item on the menu can be iced tea.....in the large containers they use as a dispenser. Next, the ice itself....sometimes there's more fecal matter in the ice machine than the toilet. Next, I would not eat at a restaurant that utilizes gloves in food prep.....it's usually just for show to make the publice THINK it's OK.

Lot' more but I think I've ruined enough appetites for now.

Doug H,

Washing immediately before service does dramatically reduce the bacteria count, usually to a level acceptable for a healthy immune system. E. Coli infections are usually not that big of a deal unless you have a compromised immune system. The dilemma for fast food places is that they have a high proportion of young children eating their meals, so uncooked foods can be a greater danger.

Overall, I don't worry too much about food poisoning unless the food is obviously bad or if I'm already not feeling well.

I'm curious though: is one reason for the popularization of iceberg lettuce and cabbage on fastfood menu due to their relatively sanitary nature? Collards, Kales, broccoli, and non-heading lettuce are generally more nutritious, but perhaps they are also more prone to pathogen outbreaks.

ajh,

It's fall in the northern hemisphere, our genes are telling us to pack up some pounds and get ready for winter.

Is this obscure reference to a 17 year old outbreak involving dietary supplements the best evidence that GMO foods are dangerous? If so, I feel even better about eating GMO foods.

oh, NOW it's safe, but it wasn't back then... and it hasn't been hushed up by the emerging biotech industry, where GM foodstuffs still require very little testing today -- things are different now! 37 people were killed, 1500 disabled for life by shocoking immune reactions, and 5000 people were affected in some way.

go for it! and you can drink tritium recycled from nuclear plants just to prove the point!

ref the points other posters have made that 'naturally occurring' foodstuffs have effectively been tested on humans for thousands of years, whereas GM foods have not (altho it's all been said before 6 threads back). hail the brave volunteer guinea pigs! and they don't even have to pay them!

the belief is that the GM bacteria produced tiny amounts (0.01%) of up to 6 toxic byproducts, not normally produced by unmodified bacteria. how do you know your GM fish gene tomato is not going to produce some strange new compound tomatoes have never produced before? you're just gambling...

L-tryptophan essentially IS a foodstuff, and most supplements can be found in various quantities in food. besides which, the principle is pretty well exactly the same for foods as for producing supplements -- DNA operates by producing or expressing proteins to create an organism, and, besides containing the proteins and other structures, the organism functions in a certain way and produces metabolites. if anything, the controls over manufacturing supplements are stricter than for foods...

Organica News -- Social Commentary: The Wall $treet Man Returns

I'm not bothered by trace amounts of fecal matter. It's everywhere anyways, including a trillion bacterias in our bodies. I figure as long as my body does not get overwhelmed or catch something extra virulent, it's probably helping me maintain a healthy immunity for overseas trips.