patrick.net

Sorry you have to deal with all this.

As you'll note from the assortment of posters here there are all kinds including the self defeating.

turtledove says

Eventually, the kids would age out and then I'd never have to hear her name again.

I think there's good chance that you'll keep hearing from her. Aged kids still cost money. If your husband cares about them she'll find ways to squeez $ from him. Later there'll be grandchildren too...

turtledove says

At one point, she was getting $72k per year in child support...

That's double what half of the people in the country get paid for their full-time job.

turtledove says

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with her?

The problem is that the legal system we use allows for crazy, vindictive, or greedy people to threaten good law-abiding people with imprisonment for not being able to pay exorbitant extortion fees.

The legal system in general, and the use of child support specifically, are indeed a form of indentured servitude and should be overturned as Unconstitutional. Unfortunately America has long adopted a fucked-up culture that men are bad and therefore there is nothing morally wrong with turning men who had sex into slaves for two decades or more and to enforce that slavery with violence and the threat of violence.

Unfortunately, I don't have any advice as no rational argument or evidence can counter the utter anti-male bigotry in the family court system. It is worth noting that the injustices of the family court system are the primary reason that men largely refuse to marry in our society today.

Dan8267 says

At one point, she was getting $72k per year in child support...

That's double what half of the people in the country get paid for their full-time job.

That was from 2002 to 2008 then GA went from 23% of gross to income shares... which cut her payments in half. She actually left the courtroom screaming how everyone was against her. It was an awkward moment. She's insane. Since then she's been getting 3k/month. Considering the original order was for two children, and we continued to pay the full amount even though the oldest has been out of the house for FOUR years, you'd think she'd be happy. Nothing makes her happy. She's just pissed that she isn't going to be able to control how things go. Anything going forward is between us and the kids. And she cannot stand that. And don't forget... she got those payments tax free. So, that $72k was like a $100k income if she had to earn it.

Women don't mind if you leave them, A., as long as you live an impoverished, bitter, cruel, diseased, unhappy, financially bereft and deteriorating existence without any recourse for companionship or sex.

If it looks like, B., you might be happy, or fly into the arms of another ( even worse, younger and tushier woman) than the forces of evil need to be unleashed upon you for the rest of your life until you return to condition A.

Why do they bury lawyers 100 ft underground?

Because deep down under they are good.

Lawyers careers revolve around gaining trust while lying and setting people up, including their own "clients".

She knew that your presumption that she somehow had an honorable bone in her body created the perfect opportunity to set you up as you wandered the corridors of naive presumption.

turtledove says

I drafted a response letter basically saying that the matter is now in the hands of the state, so they will not receive a lump sum payment until they provide us proof that the accounts have been closed both in Georgia and California. Basically, you can't have it both ways.

She sounds crazy. I wouldn't give her the benefit of a response. Get a lawyer and let them talk to her or the state. It's too bad that it couldn't have just been worked out without lawyers, but at this point, just hire someone and let them deal with it.

The only problem I see going forward is paying for kids college tuition. I don't know how they handle financial aid issues when parents are divorced, but I think it's based on the combined income of both parents. If one makes a lot more than the other, better paid one may demand that the lesser paid one pay their half. If the lesser paid parent can't pay, the kid gets screwed. This happened to a roomate I had in college. I didn't care for the guy too much, so I never got the details. But despite not liking him, I felt like he got the shaft. I think he had to transfer to another college.

YesYNot says

She sounds crazy. I wouldn't give her the benefit of a response. Get a lawyer and let them talk to her or the state. It's too bad that it couldn't have just been worked out without lawyers, but at this point, just hire someone and let them deal with it.

The only problem I see going forward is paying for kids college tuition. I don't know how they handle financial aid issues when parents are divorced, but I think it's based on the combined income of both parents. If one makes a lot more than the other, better paid one may demand that the lesser paid one pay their half. If the lesser paid parent can't pay, the kid gets screwed. This happened to a roomate I had in college. I didn't care for the guy too much, so I never got the details. But despite not liking him, I felt like he got the shaft. I think he had to transfer to another college.

Our response was written under advice of counsel. The stupidity of the whole thing is that she would have gotten it in a lump sum, but if she doesn't dismiss the account with the state, she will be forced to accept much smaller monthly payments. The states don't encourage that you pay it off all at once. They get federal matching funds on what they collect each month. So, they are very easy to work with on a monthly basis. This has no real affect on us other than we cannot just mark her off the list.

That said, Georgia has no requirement for post majority support. Support ends at the age of 18 or when the child graduates from high school. Period. This has nothing to do with post-majority support. Nor would we ever agree to post-majority support. Any money that goes to the kids now, can go directly to the kids. She can no longer control the money. It no longer has to go through her. And the state cannot mandate it under current Georgia law.

In total, including alimony, that woman has received more than three quarters of a million dollars. So don't feel too sorry for her. This last $33k (the same that was based on two kids when she only had one, mind you) is nothing compared to the total dollars she's received over the years. Five years ago, she and her husband quit their jobs and opened their own businesses. What do you think they were living off of?

Being done with her on September 15th was very exciting to me. I was looking forward to it. She knew it was over for her too. That's the only reason to try to make an issue out of something that isn't an issue (we had already agreed to a date two weeks before she sent the demand letter asking for the very same thing we already agreed to). She opened the account with the state to rattle a sabre... She just didn't realize that by doing that, we can no longer pay her directly, verified both with an attorney and DCS. She will end up with less, as a result. It was a very stupid move on her part. I guess I should delight in that. But I really just wanted her drama behind me once and for all. September 15th was my release date... and now it doesn't look like it will happen.

Look at it this way... she did all this when she would have been paid within four months of when the payments would have stopped altogether. Remember, the last payment was due at the end of May 2016. That's just a few months ago. I swear, the minute she heard that we would be paying her off, she just had to get one more in there. She was just fine as long as we were beholden to her. As long as we had to give her monthly progress reports, she was powerful.

In retrospect you should not have said anything and sent the check on the 15th.

turtledove says

Being done with her on September 15th was very exciting to me. I was looking forward to it. She knew it was over for her too.

Ranina ranina says

In retrospect you should not have said anything and sent the check on the 15th.

I said the exact same thing to my husband last night. Alerting her to it was a mistake. I was lulled into a false sense of security by her reasonable behavior over the last year. We thought she'd be happy. Boy, were we wrong. It's hard to think like a crazy person.

If we were really smart, we'd have just sent the check on the 15th, maybe before if funds clear faster.... That was the outside date.... Anyway, we should have just sent the check with a letter from my husband saying, "I hope you're happy. TD took the kids and left me." That would have made her so happy.

I'm sad to say that the yearly trips to court began when we got married. I had a process server greet me when we got home after the babies were born. We went on a vacation and decided to leave the night before instead of the next day, as planned. That next day, I get a call from a neighbor saying that a car with a person in it had been parked in front of our house for hours. We knew immediately it was a process server. She times these things to ruin events. How did I forget that?????? That's exactly what just happened this week.

She took us to court repeatedly under the belief he had all this hidden money, which was ridiculous. She lost every time. She really created a mess for herself putting 100k on credit cards for all those legal bills. The final time she took him to court, the judge told her she had had enough and didn't want to see her back. It was shocking. I had hoped that the judge would order her to pay our legal fees, but no such luck.

We only went back to court one more time in 2008. But that was us who brought the action... The only action we ever brought. The law had changed, meaning that our support obligation would be cut in half, so we had to do it. That was the one she ran out of the courtroom screaming that everyone was against her.

I have a friend who has grown up children from a previous marriage. His ex wife periodically makes large presents to them (like cars, house down payments, vacations) and always insists (with 100% success rate as far as I know) that he contributes equal amont.
He does have a second family with young children.

turtledove says

In total, including alimony, that woman has received three quarters of a million dollars. So don't feel too sorry for her.

How much have you received, effectively, from your husband? How much does raising your children cost?

FP says

His ex wife periodically makes large presents to them (like cars, house down payments, vacations) and always insists (with 100% success rate as far as I know) that he contributes equal amont.

That is his choice-which is fine. What I don't like is the state under threat of jail forcing you to fund these critters luxury lifestyle.
72k of tax free funds for years is just illogical.

Turtledove, hang in there. There is nothing you can do, just realize you will be free of the witch soon and this is he last jab she can legally throw at you and she could not resist-so grin and bear it!

FP says

I have a friend who has grown up children from a previous marriage. His ex wife periodically makes large presents to them (like cars, house down payments, vacations) and always insists (with 100% success rate as far as I know) that he contributes equal amont.

He does have a second family with young children.

He's lucky. It's the way it should be. We unfortunately, have never been given credit for the support payments made. She's always told the kids that the support their father sends isn't adequate. For shits and giggles, I just did the calculation for reals... Including the two years of separation, so from the end of 2001 through May 2016, she received $1,0001,000 in support payments ($144,000 was alimony). This does not include the $100k in legal fees for the various court battles, nor does it include the fact that she got the house. But she tells the kids that his support isn't adequate and they just don't understand all that's involved in raising children. But she's going to make a federal case about the last $33k THAT WE ALREADY SAID SHE'D HAVE IN THREE MORE WEEKS!

Is it too early to start drinking? I actually couldn't go into work today. I wasn't fit to be around people. This is where my husband has me beat every time... All the shit in the world could be falling on his head and he can still go forward and do whatever has to be done. I have to cry for several hours and then retreat to my fortress of solitude while the wheels turn and I can make things make sense again. You all are the only people I've been able to handle conversation (longer than a couple of sentences) with since Friday evening.

turtledove says

Is it too early to start drinking? I actually couldn't go into work today. I wasn't fit to be around people. This is where my husband has me beat every time... All the shit in the world could be falling on his head and he can still go forward and do whatever has to be done. I have to cry for several hours and then retreat to my fortress of solitude while the wheels turn and I can make things make sense again. You all are the only people I've been able to handle conversation (longer than a couple of sentences) with since Friday evening.

From what you said, she shot herself in the foot over this, so why get down about it?

turtledove says

She actually left the courtroom screaming how everyone was against her.

Greed cannot be satiated. The more it's feed, the hungrier it gets.

Rashomon says

From what you said, she shot herself in the foot over this, so why get down about it?

I guess it just goes to show how much it meant to me for it to be over. I was like a kid counting the days down to Christmas.

My darkest thoughts were the idea that no matter how hard I work, no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't matter. I brought in all those Chinese IVF cases starting at the end of August and going into September. They were our ticket to freedom. They were my windfall. I worked for months and months to make this happen. I had it all planned out. 1) Pay her; 2) Make a larger 2016 quarterly payment to the IRS, 3) Pay for my son's military school that he's dreamed of going to for years, 4) Put half in savings, 5) Do something to make the house a little nicer. She was first on my list. She always was. I just wanted it to be done. I worked for it. I earned it. But it doesn't matter. Parole denied.

FP says

How much have you received, effectively, from your husband? How much does raising your children cost?

FP, I know you mean well... and I don't want to take out my anger on you. But I'm in a serious mood, and it doesn't include humoring people who think that "first children" deserve a premium lifestyle over "second children."

The vast majority of our marriage, we were renters... Not by choice, but because the support obligations made savings very difficult. You understand that when a person pays 23% of gross in c/s, that amounts to roughly 40% of a person's take home pay, right? We moved from place to place as my husband chased jobs to afford his support payments. In 14 years of marriage, we moved six times for jobs. My children have been to four different elementary schools. They have no neighborhood they identify as "their home." Our attempt to buy a house in Atlanta was met with an immediate lawsuit alleging that we were hiding money. We fell behind on our mortgage payments paying for those legal fees to fight her erroneous claims. We ended up having to borrow money from my husband's parents in order to get straight. We went periods of time without health insurance while we paid for the other kids to have health insurance. I assure you, my kids have never had the kind of money available to them that she had for her children. They grew up in one house... went to the same schools... We didn't own a house again until Nov. 2014. But you know what, we didn't really care about that. We just asked not to be hassled in the process. But she couldn't give us that.

Down.... Up.... Just got an email from The Doctors. They want us back on the show. Okay, good things... It's not all bad. Snap out of this... Hit the reset button. You can do it..

turtledove says

She just didn't realize that by doing that, we can no longer pay her directly, verified both with an attorney and DCS

Sounds like a rookie mistake for a long-time attorney.

MMR says

Sounds like a rookie mistake for a long-time attorney.

She never really practiced. She liked wearing the law school t-shirt more than being a practicing lawyer. She didn't work as a lawyer until maybe 8 years ago. A good 10 years after going to law school. She had multiple jobs for the first few years because she couldn't find a place where she liked to work... and then she decided to hang up her own shingle. So, she is pretty inexperienced. Her inexperience was well earned.

turtledove says

She always was. I just wanted it to be done. I worked for it. I earned it. But it doesn't matter. Parole denied.

She's not going to get anywhere near what she hoped for in cash flow and it seems like your cashflow will be relatively unharmed. Certainly less than making a 33k lump-sum payment.

turtledove says

She never really practiced

Certainly sounds like it. Talking to seasoned attorneys, they all seem to say that students who have graduated law school and passed bar still don't know enough law to be really effective for more than one year on job

turtledove says

FP, I know you mean well... and I don't want to take out my anger on you. But I'm in a serious mood, and it doesn't include humoring people who think that "first children" deserve a premium lifestyle over "second children."

Hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Don't take me too seriously.

BTW, my impressions from relatives is that the second set of children usually get the more luxurious lifestyle. That's because they are born when the father has already established career. When you marry an older guy with an established career you avoid the early lean years of struggle (medical school, residence, etc), but there is a price - the baggage he carries. C'est la vie

If I were you, I'd leave it to your husband to deal with problem.

I'm telling ya the 100' policy is there for a reason.

FP says

BTW, my impressions from relatives is that the second set of children usually get the more luxurious lifestyle. That's because they are born when the father has already established career. When you marry an older guy with an established career you avoid the early lean years of struggle (medical school, residence, etc), but there is a price - the baggage he carries. C'est la vie

The guy marries his high school sweetheart. She waits tables while he goes to college and graduate school. She works in his office while he's setting up shop. Then, she finally gets to have some kids and be a stay at home mom. They buy the dream house. She's finally made it. Then, he runs off with the 20 year old secretary, puts all his assets in his girlfriend's name, claims he has no money, and ex-wife and kids end up living hand-to-mouth in a roach infested apartment in Compton.

Maybe at some point in history this was the case, but it hasn't been this way in a long time. Most of the people I know who go through a divorce, the guy ends up in the apartment living hand to mouth... and any increase in salary immediately triggers a recalculation of child support... So, he can never earn his way out of it. The worst part is, the child support has nothing to do with the needs of the children. It's this arbitrary calculation based on percentages of incomes... as if the cost of a loaf of bread increases alongside one's salary... So, what's happening is that alimony is being flown under the flag of child support. Remember, alimony has a very different tax treatment. With c/s, the guy pays the taxes on the money... with alimony, the ex-wife pays the taxes as if it were income. When you cheat and inflate c/s to cover alimony, she's getting some serious tax free income. This is an especially difficult problem for professionals because not complying can result in loss of licensure and you are always trackable based on your license... They are the hardest hit. The super rich can hire lawyers that can make things impossible on the ex... The super poor can just disappear. The rest of us get screwed.

FP says

If I were you, I'd leave it to your husband to deal with problem.

If only I could... About eight years ago, our lawyer instructed that my husband isn't allowed to send emails/letters/texts without my approval. My husband sometimes says things that get him in trouble. I'm better at seeing all communications as potential exhibits in a courtroom, and therefore present those communications as such from the get-go.

Interesting. Looks like my observations do not apply to the US. Here very few in my circle are divorced. One of the few cases- a close friend whose wife left him did not ask for the house or alimony, even though she has meager income, only for modest child support. He sends her extra payments sometimes out of concern for her; she is the mother of his children afteer all.

FP says

Interesting. Looks like my observations do not apply to the US. Here very few in my circle are divorced. One of the few cases- a close friend whose wife left him did not ask for the house or alimony, even though she has meager income, only for modest child support. He sends her extra payments sometimes out of concern for her; she is the other of his children after all.

I've never been against supporting the children. The reason we didn't take her back when the oldest aged out (you'd think the recalculation would be automatic, but not in Georgia... You have to get a new order) was because I knew that his ex would fight it. We'd end up spending everyone's college money on lawyers. So, we continued to pay for two kids when there was only one kid in the house. Supporting the kids never bothered me. Her making my life a living hell. That bothered me. Her doing the kinds of things she's doing right now are what bothered me. I don't begrudge the kids. But it's a little upsetting when you're struggling to pay her... She and her husband decide to start their own businesses... and we hear from the kids that they are also remodeling a bathroom. WTH! Child support is supposed to be for the care of the children... It's not supposed to support adults who want to start their own businesses and leave enough left over to put subway tile in the bathroom cuz they always thought that would look better. It's those kinds of things that make me question the calculation.

Dan8267 says

It is worth noting that the injustices of the family court system are the primary reason that men largely refuse to marry in our society today.

Isn't this story more of a reason not to have kids than to not marry?

zzyzzx says

Isn't this story more of a reason not to have kids than to not marry?

Or at least, have them through a surrogate and IVF with an egg donor. Then the kids are all yours... and no one can use them against you to extort cash. You can raise them as you see fit. Since I do this for a living... Just let me know who's interested. I'll create a Patnet discount.

Sorry TD that you're having this rough time, and thanks for sharing about why you're so upset. There is no understanding that kind of dysfunction. Maybe the husband is a factor (a prick). He has enjoyed that income stream too. When it slowed down, maybe he hounded her with, "what's up ?" "Why do you trust them ?" "Why do you believe they will pay in September ?" Or maybe it is all her, and she really is THAT dysfunctional or for some sick psychological reason not able to resist a little more drama as you said, before it's over. Or maybe she's a stupid asshole of an attorney and she thinks she's using her tools. Who cares what the reason is ?

It's too easy to say, but this too shall pass. It just prolonged the BS a little.

If you stay upset, then the terrorists win.

zzyzzx says

Dan8267 says

It is worth noting that the injustices of the family court system are the primary reason that men largely refuse to marry in our society today.

Isn't this story more of a reason not to have kids than to not marry?

The injustices of the family court system goes far beyond indenture servitude and applies to childless husbands as well. Two generations of men have seen men being abused severely by the family court system and have adjusted their world views accordingly.

Marcus does have a point.

It is ALWAYS the 3rd party, it is not who you think it is.

Dan8267 says

The injustices of the family court system goes far beyond indenture servitude and applies to childless husbands as well. Two generations of men have seen men being abused severely by the family court system and have adjusted their world views accordingly.

I wasn't saying that isn't an issue, but these days isn't child support usually way more onerous than alimony?

turtledove says

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with her?

She is jealous. I'm sure you are prettier.