patrick.net

Dan8267 says

viruses, amebas, and volcanoes all have free will according to this definition

No they don't: they never consider alternatives and pick one. They react to stimuli and or just represent an unfolding natural phenomena not making any choice.

Dan8267 says

That's not free will, nor is it what the typical person means by free will. An algorithm given different inputs may produce a different output. There is no "will" free or otherwise involved.

That's your opinion. And it's a mute argument anyway because people never think carefully about going back in the exact same state they were in at some point in the past.

Dan8267 says

Nothing in what you are proposing is non-deterministic or non-predictable.

So what?

Dan8267 says

So let's say for the sake of argument that free will, by whatever definition, existed in our universe. How would our universe change if it were removed? How would your decisions change if you didn't have free will. Be specific.

Removing free will would remove intelligent reaction to a new problem. It would remove playing chess. It would remove humans.

Heraclitusstudent says

No they don't: they never consider alternatives and pick one. They react to stimuli and or just represent an unfolding natural phenomena not making any choice.

Reacting to stimuli or following the laws of nature is decision making.

Computers
Make decisions by executing algorithms. The algorithms are ultimately executed by following electrical laws.

Viruses
Make decisions about when to release their genetic content. These decisions are made by chemical and mechanical processes that follow the laws of electromagnetic force interactions.

Amebas
Make decisions of where to move, how fast, what to try to eat, when to reproduce. These decisions are made using complicated machinery, but that machinery is composed entirely of atoms obeying immutable laws of physics.

Humans
Make decisions also based on complicated machinery, but that machinery is composed entirely of atoms obeying immutable laws of physics.

Volcanoes
Make decisions on when to blow and how much. These decisions are based on thermodynamics. Essentially it's no different than amebas or humans making decisions based on their atoms following immutable physical laws.

There is nothing magical about the atoms in a human body. They are no different than the atoms in a virus, an ameba, or a volcano. Everything you do is due to the atoms in your body mindlessly obeying the laws of nature. In order for you to deviate from what those atoms would do, you would have to get those atoms to disobey the laws of nature. And that is something you cannot do.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

That's not free will, nor is it what the typical person means by free will. An algorithm given different inputs may produce a different output. There is no "will" free or otherwise involved.

That's your opinion

No, it's not an opinion at all, nonetheless mine. It's a fact.

Heraclitusstudent says

And it's a mute argument anyway because people never think carefully about going back in the exact same state they were in at some point in the past.

The practicality of a thought experiment is irrelevant. The idea is still valid. The fact is that the universe contradicts your beliefs. And when that happens, it's not the universe that is wrong.

The concept of free will is essentially that our decisions are not determined entirely by atoms following the laws of nature. I.e., that there is something literally supernatural that allows us to do things that our atoms would not due simply following the laws of nature. This is, of course, entirely bullshit. Free will does not exist. It would violate basic causality if it did, and there would be ample evidence of the laws of nature being violated by collections of atoms that form sentient beings. No such evidence has ever been found and it would be obvious as a dick slapping you in the face if it did exist. It would be happening all the time.

Heraclitusstudent says

So what?

Free will requires some level of indeterminism, by definition, and some level of unpredictability, also by definition. If your decisions are completely deterministic or I can predict them with unerring accuracy, you cannot have free will.

Side note: This demonstrates that an omniscient god contradicts free will. We are not free to make any choices except for the exact ones such a god knows we will make.

Heraclitusstudent says

Removing free will would remove intelligent reaction to a new problem. It would remove playing chess. It would remove humans.

No on all three accounts. Free will and intelligence have nothing to do with each other, and free will is certainly not a prerequisite for intelligence. The lack of free will would not "remove humans" from existence. Nor would it prevent such humans from playing chess. Again, computer software can play chess better than any human that has ever existed or will ever exist. Do chess-playing programs have free will?

Dan8267 says

Reacting to stimuli or following the laws of nature is decision making.

So you would say that when I turn the light on, the light "makes the choice" to turn on.
What the fuck is wrong with you?

I'll repeat again: they never consider alternatives and pick one. Making a choice requires having knowledge on some environment, being able to consider alternatives, pick one, and then execute actions based on that choice. The actions are then deliberate choices, not automatic reactions.

Dan8267 says

That's your opinion

No, it's not an opinion at all, nonetheless mine. It's a fact.

No it isn't. Otherwise show me the statistic on what people think free will is or is not you used to determine it is a fact.

Dan8267 says

The practicality of a thought experiment is irrelevant. The idea is still valid. The fact is that the universe contradicts your beliefs. And when that happens, it's not the universe that is wrong.

You have no observed fact. You are talking of what you think people in general believe with no tangible basis whatsoever for that claim.
Don't come and tell me you have facts contradicting my beliefs.

Seriously if you don't have anything of value to add, STFU.

Dan8267 says

Free will and intelligence have nothing to do with each other, and free will is certainly not a prerequisite for intelligence.

That's as close as you can come from a fact free assertion.
I took the trouble of giving a definition including making a choice, meaning evaluating alternatives, meaning having knowledge on a given universe and being able to think through alternatives. If this doesn't require some level of intelligence, I don't know what does.
Apparently posting on an Internet board doesn't.

Heraclitusstudent says

So you would say that when I turn the light on, the light "makes the choice" to turn on.

I'm saying that according to your definition of free will, the light makes the choice to turn on. That's why your definition of free will is stupid and not reflective of what people are talking about.

And yes, this applies to whether or not it's a smart light switch. You change the environment and the light reacts to that changes. It's reaction may be simpler than that of a virus, and ameba, or a human, but all of these agents are just as deterministic.

Heraclitusstudent says

What the fuck is wrong with you?

I make compelling arguments that disprove your sentiments. You are too emotionally immature to accept that you are wrong or to not take it personally. There's nothing wrong with me. It's you who are wrong.

[stupid comment limit]

Heraclitusstudent says

I'll repeat again: they never consider alternatives and pick one.

Computers clearly consider alternatives and pick actions. Yet computers are composed of nothing but atoms doing nothing but following the laws of nature. Both light switches and humans are also composed nothing but atoms doing nothing but following the laws of nature. Complexity doesn't magically introduce supernatural factors. Both Turing machines and your brain are binary switches built with atoms performing logic that follows one and only one way from the laws of nature.

The degree of complexity does not alter the fact that the very process of considering multiple actions and picking one is deterministic. The light bulb picks to either light up or burn out. A computer program picks to either send out a Social Security check or not. A human picks whether to eat a sandwich or not. It's all deterministic.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

Free will and intelligence have nothing to do with each other, and free will is certainly not a prerequisite for intelligence.

That's as close as you can come from a fact free assertion.

I took the trouble of giving a definition including making a choice, meaning evaluating alternatives, meaning having knowledge on a given universe and being able to think through alternatives. If this doesn't require some level of intelligence, I don't know what does.

Apparently posting on an Internet board doesn't.

It is hardly an assertion. It is an a priori conclusion that comes from the definitions of free will and intelligence. That's called deductive reasoning.

The fact that you are not smart enough to understand this or imagine intelligence without free will or vice versa is your failing, not the universe's. Just because you can't figure something out doesn't mean the universe can't implement it.

Free will is ultimately about non-determinism as I have shown several times now. If the decision you make, however complicated the process is to arrive at that decision, is determined entirely by atoms following the laws of nature with no deviation, then you have no more free will than a rock. That is the point you have been avoiding like the plague.

Heraclitusstudent says

No it isn't. Otherwise show me the statistic on what people think free will is or is not you used to determine it is a fact.

Jesus fucking Christ, are you really this dumb or just pretending? Do you even know what an opinion is? An opinion is not a fact that has not been proven. An opinion is a judgement that cannot be right or wrong even in principle. For example, people like the taste of shit is a factual statement, an incorrect fact, but nonetheless a factual statement not an opinion. Shit tastes good is an opinion. Christ, I learned this in kindergarten. Why haven't you mastered it.

And some facts are so apparent that there need not be a scientific study to confirm it. For example, I don't have to confirm that most people don't like the taste of shit. That's pretty obvious.

Just listen to how real people talk about free will. It's obvious what's going their their minds if you have any kind of listening skills.

Heraclitusstudent says

Seriously if you don't have anything of value to add, STFU.

Some people just can't handle having their false ideas challenged. This is why Trump won the election.

www.youtube.com/embed/WDZaUu-st0Y

www.youtube.com/embed/vCGtkDzELAI

Notes: Determinism does not require reductionism. Effects have causes, not necessarily "one single thing" but rather a collection of conditions. Also determinism doesn't mean morality and ethics are irrelevant. They are still important. In fact morality and ethics are both effect by the fact that free will does not exist. It is unjustifiable to punish a person, not as a deterrent or to prevent future crimes, but simply because the person deserves it. Our entire legal system is based on this false belief that people deserve punishment. So this is not simply an academic question.

www.youtube.com/embed/joCOWaaTj4A

Notes: Dennett is basically saying that free will doesn't exist, but we can use the term to refer to something that does: the ability to make conscious decisions, albeit ones that are deterministic, that are based on our values, which are also deterministic.

I have no problem with that, but it's not what philosophers, priests, popes, and the average person means by free will. So I wouldn't use the term "free will" for it, but rather "freedom". We are free from coercion to make decisions, but not free from determinism to make those decisions. Also, I agree that not having free will doesn't matter. What really matters is freedom.

Also Dennett is right that we have to give up the idea of moral blame, which is what I proposed when saying that punishing a person because he deserves it is wrong. I suspect that morally justifying inflicting pointless pain on another person is a primary reason people like to believe in free will. It justifies their bloodlust for vengeance.

Another great video...

www.youtube.com/embed/MzW-r_vPf50

Daniel is a student deeply engaged in brain science and philosophy of mind. He is an aspiring neuroscientist, writer, educator, and science communicator. In his free time, he enjoys biking, meditating, composing music, reading books, debating with his friends and family, and being alone with his thoughts.

Another advocate of what I've been saying...

www.youtube.com/embed/rfOMqehl-ZA

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

No it isn't. Otherwise show me the statistic on what people think free will is or is not you used to determine it is a fact.

Do you even know what an opinion is? An opinion is not a fact that has not been proven. An opinion is a judgement that cannot be right or wrong even in principle. For example, people like the taste of shit is a factual statement, an incorrect fact, but nonetheless a factual statement not an opinion.

We are considering 2 assertions:
A - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in exactly the same situation and make a different choice."
B - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in the same situation knowing what they know after the 1st try, and make a different choice".

Since most people don't spend time thinking very deeply about the nature of freewill, nor about what the hell going back in time could possibly mean and entail, they don't have a very clear opinion of whether A or B is in fact true. Most people do not make though experiments for the purpose of clarifying what they mean in every day life. All people feel about free will in everyday life is "I'm choosing what I'm doing".
To claim A is true and not B is as far away as could be from a "Shit doesn't taste good" kind of fact. It is your opinion, not a fact. Period.

All these videos do no answer anything I said above.
Dennett basically agrees with me that there are 2 layers: the physical where there is no choice, and a layer above that (biological in his case), and that this 2nd layer functionally makes a choice.

Daniel Do makes exactly the same misguided claims as Harris based on looking at only the physical layer. Just because we can observe decisions in a brain before we become aware of them doesn't mean no choice is made. It's like saying that you can see a chess program make the choice before the piece is moved on the chess board. Only the last step registers consciously as a decision but there is a large number of mechanical steps before that are necessary but unseen. This doesn't refute the fact that a choice is made by the computer.

The moral argument is even worse. It completely ignores how reentrant the logic is: we can absolutely deliberately choose to give more weight to concern for others and this affects our future decisions. This parameter and others represent who we are as individuals. And we choose that.

Harris is a moral philosopher but he takes a stand on freewill that denies the very existence of moral. Criminal justice is not moral. Can we blame a computer for having a bug? No. Why? Because a computer (at least so far) doesn't have a routine that looks constantly at what he is doing and evaluate it against who an idea of who it is as individual computer and what his morality is. But we do have that routine. Whether the routine itself is deterministic is irrelevant to the fact that it exists.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

I'll repeat again: they never consider alternatives and pick one.

Computers clearly consider alternatives and pick actions. Yet computers are composed of nothing but atoms doing nothing but following the laws of nature. Both light switches and humans are also composed nothing but atoms doing nothing but following the laws of nature. Complexity doesn't magically introduce supernatural factors.

This is silly because no one is talking about supernatural factors. All we are talking about is whether functionally alternatives are considered and 1 is chosen.
This is what "making a choice" means. People make choices about what they are going to do next. THAT is a fact.

Heraclitusstudent says

We are considering 2 assertions:

A - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in exactly the same situation and make a different choice."

B - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in the same situation knowing what they know after the 1st try, and make a different choice".

Since most people don't spend time thinking very deeply about the nature of freewill, nor about what the hell going back in time could possibly mean and entail, they don't have a very clear opinion of whether A or B is in fact true. Most people do not make though experiments for the purpose of clarifying what they mean in every day life. All people feel about free will in everyday life is "I'm choosing what I'm doing".

To claim A is true and not B is as far away as could be from a "Shit doesn't taste good" kind of fact. It is your opinion, not a fact. Period.

You are completely fucking wrong. The following statements are facts, true or false, not opinions.
1. The world is round.
2. The world is flat.
3. Most people today think the world is round.
4. Most people today think the world is flat.

It is not an opinion that "most people today think the world is round". This can be verified or disproved. You are simply wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

A - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in exactly the same situation and make a different choice."

This is exactly what every priest, philosopher, criminal judge, and moral or religious text has meant when talking about free will.

Heraclitusstudent says

B - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in the same situation knowing what they know after the 1st try, and make a different choice".

This is not what any priest, philosopher, criminal judge, and moral or religious text ever has meant when talking about free will. Furthermore, the following computer wholly and clearly meets this standard.

According to Heraclitusstudent, I have free will. Teleport me back in time and give me different data, and I will make different decisions.

Well, so would I. Change the pressure of the magma below me, and I'll choose not to erupt.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dennett basically agrees with me that there are 2 layers: the physical where there is no choice, and a layer above that (biological in his case), and that this 2nd layer functionally makes a choice.

No he doesn't, and appeal to authority means nothing anyway. What matters is the justification Dennett gives.

Dennett clearly states that the biological layer is a physical layer and is every bit deterministic as such. He is saying that choice is deterministic, and that's OK. Free will doesn't exist, but you could use the term to refer to deterministic choices if you wanted to. It would not mean remotely the same thing, but deterministic choices are all the freedom your will has, so deal with it.

A virus makes choices. An ameba makes choices. A computer makes choices. Choices do not require free will. Choices are deterministic. If you want to define choice as non-deterministic, then you do not make choices.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is silly because no one is talking about supernatural factors

If you are saying that choices are influenced by anything other than blindly following the laws of nature, then you are, by definition, talking about supernatural factors. And if you are not talking about supernatural factors, then every choice you made is really made by atoms following those laws of nature.

Dan8267 says

The following statements are facts, true or false, not opinions.

1. The world is round.

2. The world is flat.

3. Most people today think the world is round.

4. Most people today think the world is flat.

You seem to be confused about what a fact is. A fact is not a proposition that can be true or false. A fact is true by definition: google it:

fact: fakt/ noun: fact; plural noun: facts
a thing that is indisputably the case.
"the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas"
synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty; More

"The world is flat" is simply not a fact. Sorry.

Having cleared that: The following propositions are not facts, they are opinions. You "think" A is true. This doesn't mean it is until you prove it.
A - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in exactly the same situation and make a different choice."
B - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in the same situation knowing what they know after the 1st try, and make a different choice".

Dan8267 says

This is not what any priest, philosopher, criminal judge, and moral or religious text ever has meant when talking about free will.

Says who? What people mean in every day life is that they can make a choice about what to do next.
People including priests, philosophers, criminal judges do not have complex definitions of free will based on time travel.

Heraclitusstudent says

You seem to be confused about what a fact is. A fact is not a proposition that can be true or false.

Let me explain how language works. Words have multiple definitions. Chosing one nomeclature over another does not change whether or not statements are true; it simply changes how you word statements that are true or not.

So you could use two nomenclatures in this discussion. The first is
- A fact is a statement that is either true or false. Use the terms true facts, false facts, and disputed facts (which are either true or false, but not both, regardless of whether or not it's known which ever)
- An opinion is a statement that is neither true of false.

That nomenclature is damn useful and easy to use. But hey, if you want to bitch and moan about it, we'll switch to nomenclature two, but it's not going to make anything you say true.
- A fact is a true statement.
- A falsehood is a false statement.
- An opinion is a statement that is neither true of false.

Using that nomenclature
1. Fact: The world is round.
2. Falsehood: The world is flat.
3. Fact: Most people today think the world is round.
4. Falsehood: Most people today think the world is flat.

Again, none of the four statements are opinions. Here are some more examples. I'll keep them simple so you can follow.
1. Fact: I like ice cream.
2. Falsehood: I hate ice cream.
3. Opinion: Ice cream tastes good.
4. Unknown Fact: Bob likes ice cream.
5. Unknown Falsehood: Joe thinks ice cream tastes good.
6. Unknown Falsehood: I would like avocado ice cream.
7. Unknown Opinion: Avocado ice cream tastes good.

Is this use of language beyond your capabilities? We can always talk in terms of see Dick and Jane.

Heraclitusstudent says

Having cleared that: The following propositions are not facts, they are opinions. You "think" A is true. This doesn't mean it is until you prove it.

A - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in exactly the same situation and make a different choice."

B - "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in the same situation knowing what they know after the 1st try, and make a different choice".

Do you ever get tired of being wrong. Even using your nomenclature, neither statement is an opinion. Statement A is a fact, and statement B is a falsehood.

Why is first grade grammar so difficult for you? It is not an opinion that life exists in the Wolf 359 system. Either the statement is true or it is false, and it doesn't matter that you don't know which. Right now I may or may not have a marble in my pocket. The statement "I have a marble in my pocket" is either true or false; it is not an opinion. You are either right or wrong in your guess.

Heraclitusstudent says

Says who? What people mean in every day life is that they can make a choice about what to do next.

Have you ever read a religious book in your life? Sorry, I can't teach you reading comprehension. Frankly, you should have mastered this already. I'm not telling you anything that should be surprising if you have any grasp on reality.

Dan8267 says

you could use the term to refer to deterministic choices if you wanted to. It would not mean remotely the same thing

Yes I'm talking of deterministic choice. It may not mean the same as YOU mean, but there is nothing in the definition of choice that says the only way to make a choice is to violate the laws of physics. This is a silly requirement for anyone to add. It has nothing to do with the fact that a choice is made.

Dan8267 says

Choices are deterministic. If you want to define choice as non-deterministic, then you do not make choices.

Jeezz.... Let's go back to basics: Google definition of choice:
choice: CHois/ noun noun: choice; plural noun: choices
1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Obviously the act of selecting an alternative doesn't require non-determinism. Once again you are trying to redefine the language to fit your argument.
Silly.

Dan8267 says

A virus makes choices. An ameba makes choices. A computer makes choices. Choices do not require free will. Choices are deterministic. If you want to define choice as non-deterministic, then you do not make choices.

No a virus doesn't make a choice, as by the definition above.

As usual you are unable to acknowledge what was already said and adapt your argument. A virus doesn't consider consider alternatives nor pick one.
A computer can do it, though most of the time, it doesn't.

Oh, and since you'll probably bitch about word usage some more, the term "false facts" is used commonly in English.

False facts and the conservative distortion machine: It’s much more than just Fox News
14 Completely False Facts That Most People Believe To Be True.
10 false facts most people think are true
What's the best false fact you can come up with?

So quite getting hung up about nomenclature. It's what is meant that is important, not what diction you use.

Dan8267 says

Words have multiple definitions. Chosing one nomeclature over another does not change whether or not statements are true; it simply changes how you word statements that are true or not.

Well you are simply redefining the word "fact".
But I can certainly use your definition: Claiming the following assertion "People believe freewill means that they could go back in time in exactly the same situation and make a different choice." is true is your opinion. There is no proof it is true.

Unless you provide evidence, 10 of your posts above are just garbage.

Heraclitusstudent says

It may not mean the same as YOU mean, but there is nothing in the definition of choice that says the only way to make a choice is to violate the laws of physics.

So then, the only thing you are bitching about is that you want to use the term "free will" to refer to will that is not free. This does not change the fact that free will doesn't exist any more than if you renamed gorillas to "big foot" would mean that the big foot of all those photos exists.

Dan8267 says

Have you ever read a religious book in your life? Sorry, I can't teach you reading comprehension.

Very well Einstein show me a religious book that defines freewill as requiring non-deterministic choice.
I'll be waiting.

Dan8267 says

It is not an opinion that life exists in the Wolf 359 system. Either the statement is true or it is false, and it doesn't matter that you don't know which.

If you claim that, positively, there is life on the Wolf 359 system, it's an opinion. Until you prove that it is a fact.
11 of your posts above are just garbage.

Heraclitusstudent says

Jeezz.... Let's go back to basics: Google definition of choice:

choice: CHois/ noun noun: choice; plural noun: choices

1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Yes, and computers and amebas and viruses and volcano all make choices according to this definition. Unless you want to argue that there is one only possibility for whether or not a volcano explodes on a given day, in which case nothing makes choices, not even human beings.

Heraclitusstudent says

No a virus doesn't make a choice, as by the definition above.

Do amebas? If so, then show me the distinction between viruses, which you say don't, and amebas which you say do.

If not, then do earthworms? If so, then show me the distinction between amebas, which you say don't, and earthworms which you say do.

If not, then do flies? If so, then show me the distinction between earthworms, which you say don't, and flies which you say do.

If not, then do lizards? If so, then show me the distinction between flies, which you say don't, and lizards which you say do.

If not, then do dogs? If so, then show me the distinction between lizards, which you say don't, and dogs which you say do.

If not, then do monkeys? If so, then show me the distinction between dogs, which you say don't, and monkeys which you say do.

If not, then do chimps? If so, then show me the distinction between monkeys, which you say don't, and chimps which you say do.

If not, then do humans? If so, then show me the distinction between chimps, which you say don't, and humans which you say do.

If not, then you concede this argument.

Heraclitusstudent says

A virus doesn't consider consider alternatives nor pick one.

Of course viruses consider options and execute choices, just like computers do. A virus does this with the information processing power of its genetic code. It's genetic code is the decision maker. Same for every cell, both single celled organisms and cells part of multi-cellular organisms. Every cell in your body chooses whether or not to pump sodium out of itself. That requires decision making, even if not intelligent decision making, and, by definition, some degree of self-awareness. Not a mind like yours or mine, but definitely awareness of the self and the separation of the self from the environment. The fact that this is all automated is irrelevant. Your consciousness and decision making is also automated by the same laws of physics driving the atoms of the same elements of the periodic table. Your atoms, your parts, may be arranged in a different way, but they are obeying the exact same laws of physics.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Jeezz.... Let's go back to basics: Google definition of choice:


choice: CHois/ noun noun: choice; plural noun: choices


1. an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Yes, and computers and amebas and viruses and volcano all make choices according to this definition.

Can we all agree that amebas viruses and volcano do not consider possibilities and pick one?
It's like talking to a door knob. Do you have 2 neurons capable of understanding a sentence?
Humans do consider and evaluate possible choices and pick one. Viruses don't.
Get it? They don't consider alternatives. They just don't. Therefore they are not making a choice.

Heraclitusstudent says

Well you are simply redefining the word "fact".

Honey, both definitions can be found in the dictionary and in common usage. And which definition we use for this conversation doesn't make a fucking difference. The truth remains that the statement "there is a marble in my pocket" is not an opinion simply because you don't know whether the statement is true or false.

Dan8267 says

Honey, both definitions can be found in the dictionary and in common usage. And which definition we use for this conversation doesn't make a fucking difference. The truth remains that the statement "there is a marble in my pocket" is not an opinion simply because you don't know whether the statement is true or false.

A truth claim about something you cannot know is an opinion. The claim above like checking there is a marble in your pocket.
12 of your posts above are just garbage with 0 impact on the argument I made.