patrick.net

Dan8267 has such a totalitarian streak. He wants to ban free speech, and he wants to ban religion.

By the way, Dan. If you ban Christianity, I bet it will become really popular. Boys will become bad. Chicks will dig it. Etc, etc.

P N Dr Lo R says

Which one gave birth?

Neither of them, which puts them in the same circumstance as the many opposite sex couples that rely on surrogacy.

Cal, do you have any children? Also, are you homosexual? Some of your statements make me think perhaps you are, seriously.

curious2 says

Neither of them

It neither invalidates male/female marriage nor validates gay marriage--it still takes a female to produce a child whether surrogate or not. That a person of today would pretend such an argument makes sense shows an abysmal ignorance. A man and woman 79 and 89, as my mother's widowed sister was when she married widower J. D. Tidwell in 1966, would produce no children, but their marriage recognized and honored the correct and traditional version of marraige in a way that two of the same sex can't.

Strategist says

flat earth, sun revolving around the earth.

That's the world people of 2,000-4,000 years ago believed they lived in. They believed the earth was supported with four columns at each corner, with a gloomy, dark space below and a dome overhead with a watery firmament above that, a three-story universe. Those people were no different from us in their spiritual lives and that's why the same Ten Commandments that were given to them apply equally to us--the first four having to do with our relationship to God, the remaining six to our relationship with each other. Replacing God with man, covetousness, envy, murder, lying, adultry are endemic to the human condition and involve the spiritual realm.

People today invest their entire lives in satisfying physical sensation through interaction with the physical world: sex, pursuit of things, drugs, ambition, pleasure and starve their spiritual selves. It's absolutely certain that the senses are going to atrophy with time and circumstances and ultimately death, but spiritual wealth, if cultivated and sought out, can never be touched or sullied.

NuttBoxer says

Strategist says

flat earth, sun revolving around the earth. All that nonsense comes from religion.

There's nowhere in the Bible any mention of either one of those. Those are beliefs of man.

Creation is definitely in the Bible though. Are you a programmer? If you are and you've ever worked on anything remotely complex, tell me how well it would function if you just mixed the code around in different methods, models, libraries, etc, then blasted it all into your Prod environment? When you look at the amount of inter-relationship, complexity that exists in the countless interactions of this world, to believe in anything but intelligent design is absurd.

Check this out. You will find it very interesting.

Richard Dawkins Vs Creationist (FULL DEBATE) - YouTube
Video for richard dawkins youtubeâ–¶ 58:37
www.youtube.com/embed/6qnOIhLZTpg
Jan 15, 2014 - Uploaded by Noam Chomsky Videos
Richard Dawkins Interviews Creationist Wendy Wright (FULL) - Duration: 56:36. rationalstabs 168,463 views ...

Some idiotic statements about evolution in this thread.

It's evolution by natural selection. The natural selection part is critical and it is not a random process.

Whoever likes watching LGBT videos - can knock himself out. But nobody shall be forced to watch them, religion or not.

P N Dr Lo R says

validates gay marriage

Cal, seriously, some of your statements make me think you have no children and perhaps you are homosexual. @Rin seems to have noticed the same about you, though I don't presume to speak for him. Your church has taught you to condemn others, including especially the gay couples who went out and got married and had children. You could have done the same, even in your time; your marriage would not have been legally recognized, but others proceeded even without that recognition. Your comments provide a poweful argument against religion, or at least against your particular church, because it has misled you to judge and condemn successful people instead of attending to the problems in your own life. It is very sad that you chose to constrict yourself all these years, imagining yourself morally inferior on the basis of a totally fictional standard. You're probably too old to start a new life now, but I hope you won't end up like this French closet case did: never married, no kids, shot himself on the altar at Notre Dame Cathedral. Even if it's too late for you to make something of your own life, at least you should be happy for younger people having a chance to do better; otherwise, you sound old and bitter, which is a sadly common combination.

BoomAndBustCycle says

quibbling over same sex relationships will seem comical in maybe as little as 100 years

@BoomAndBustCycle I don't think there will be any western culture in 100 years if we continue on the current path.

There will only be Islam, which will murder any remaining gays.

P N Dr Lo R says

Which one gave birth? This is pretend, and everyone knows the difference. It's like the alchemists of old, trying to convert lead into gold, but after all their incantations and vo-de-o-do, all they had was lead, the union is sterile. The gold standard is and always will be the male and female marriage regardless of how many courts declare otherwise. The West is killing itself, probably won't last as long as the Roman empire.

This is a stupid and harmful worldview. As a society, we should be strongly encouraging and enabling homosexual couples to adopt children because it is in the children's best interests. You propose a false dichotomy in which homosexual married couples compete with heterosexual married couples on adopting the rare child that has no guardians. This is utter nonsense that is completely rebuked by reality.

In reality there are plenty of children who are wards of the state, and not nearly enough people willing to adopt them. Every one of those children would be better off adopted by a gay couple than as a ward of the state. ...unless you believe in big government and the nanny state, P N Dr Lo R, you socialist. Allowing homosexual couples to adopt children is the free market solution, and allowing homosexual couples to compete with heterosexual for parenthood would be a good thing anyway.

[stupid comment limit]

And as for the gold standard, that's a load of crap. There are unique challenges that homosexual couples face, providing only one gender parents. However, this disadvantage is easily mitigated or eliminated by having opposite gender friends or family help like aunts and uncles. Far more common, it will be the case where there are advantages to the child being adopted by homosexuals because of unrelated factors like household income, mental stability, devotion, etc. At least half the time, the homosexual male couples will have better finances because men go into higher paying professions. So typically a child will be better off with two fathers than with a father and a mother. Yes, money matters far more than sexual orientation or even access to opposing sex parents, especially if you have an opposing sex aunt/uncle.

rando says

Islam

is probably the biggest hazard to western culture apart from nuclear war, which Islam might cause now that Pakistan has 100 nuclear weapons and Turkey could steal another 100 from America's tiny base there. I think it would take longer than 100 years though. On present trend, France will have a Muslim majority by then, but America won't unless we start importing much larger numbers of Muslims. I had hoped the Trump administration might publish a new Executive Order on that topic today, one that will survive judicial review.

NuttBoxer says

So if people use religion as an excuse to do whatever they want, you blame the religion, not the people!?

This is a false argument. It is not merely the case that bad people use religion as an excuse. That statement is based on the false assumption that religion does not influence people's behavior and worldviews. If that were the case, religion would have no sway over people. Clearly religion heavily influences many people. One needs only to look towards the Middle East for a plethora of examples.

It is a fact that religion influences people to do very evil things. Islam in the Middle East absolutely encourages terrorism, violence, tribalism, and oppression. Yes, those things would still exist without religion, but religion increases those evils by many orders of magnitude. The Middle East would be a hell of a lot safer, productive, and pleasant if Islam did not exist. Even more so if Judaism and Christianity also did not exist. And even more so if no other religion took their places.

American Christianity today is less destructive but only because it has a weaker hold over people and a hold over fewer people. Nonetheless, every single evil in American history has been heavily amplified if not outright caused by Christianity including slavery and genocide and the consequences of both those things that persist into today. As such to assert that Christianity does not directly cause people to do evil things, even today, is an outright lie.

There is no upside to irrationality and delusion. Nor should the irrational or delusional be respected.

NuttBoxer says

I'm gonna go fuck up some shelves in a 7/11 in the name of iPhones. Guess you'll have to throw yours away, huh Dan?

I would never use an iPhone or any Apple product. And I would consider that suggestion an ad hominem.

I've actually shifted to Apple products, because I trust Apple on privacy much more than I trust Google.

Dan8267 says

There is no upside to irrationality and delusion.

Religion appears to correlate positively with birthrates, so in that sense it is adaptive. With advancing technology and longer lives, lower birth rates become sustainable, but it's like a trapeze act: if you want to switch from a religious culture to a scientific culture, you have to ensure the technology is good enough to sustain the lower birth rate.

Dan8267 says

Nor should the irrational or delusional be respected.

I agree with that, but "most people are hallucinating most of the time." Nearly every advance in science has resulted from disproving the delusions that preceded it, including those held by seemingly rational scientists. We end up having to tolerate the delusions that are either harmless or do some good, though that should not spill over into respecting a dangerously totalitarian fraud.

justme says

Dan8267 has such a totalitarian streak. He wants to ban free speech, and he wants to ban religion.

You are in direct contradiction with yourself. Free speech and religion are mutually exclusive. Case example, boy arrested for showing disrespect to Christian god.

I will always favor free speech over religion. Furthermore, we never had freedom of religion in America. We have a few state approved religions and religious practices. Any time there is a conflict of interest between the state and religion, the state wins. People argue that using tax payer money for abortions violates their religious beliefs. Well, so does using money for war. So does the draft and the selective service. So does strip searches and body cavity searches. So does anti-drug usage laws. We NEVER had any kind of real freedom of religion in this country. We've only had state approved privileges for select religions and religious practices.

curious2 says

seriously

That's just commentary and speculation, you didn't invalidate a single point I made.

P N Dr Lo R says

curious2 says

science

Can tell you how but not why.

True, but lots of people try to sell you imaginary reasons "why", without actually knowing any better than you do. It's like in The Wizard of Oz, the only thing they've got that you haven't got is an ordination, or a deluded following. At least science requires actual hypotheses that can be tested and actual results, and it produces many advances. Religion hasn't really advanced in 2,000 years, in fact if you count Islam it's regressed.

P N Dr Lo R says

you didn't invalidate a single point I made.

You didn't make any points, you merely illustrated theory induced blindness and the backfire effect by denying without evidence the points that I had made above. You take a blinkered view of history and call that "traditional" and therefore "correct," but your blind assertions are not facts, you merely copied them from your preferred charlatan. You've sacrificed so much to their fraud, your whole life, that you feel committed to it now. Meanwhile, actual people living successful lives prove you wrong every day.

Dan8267 says

You are in direct contradiction with yourself. Free speech and religion are mutually exclusive. Case example, boy arrested for showing disrespect to Christian god.

Stop knocking Christianity all the time. They are pussycats compared to Muslims. If that 14 year old showed that kind of disrespect to Allah in the Mid East, he would instantly get beheaded.

curious2 says

You didn't make any points,

You just ignored them because you can't deny them. I made the point that people living in pre-scientific times had the same destructive impulses as those of us living in a scientifically enlightened age and the same moral laws given them apply to us as well--those are facts. While many false gods were and are believed in, it was Judeo-Christianity, the person of Jesus Christ, that provided the foundation for Western civilization. It sure wasn't atheism or paganism. Science deals with the physical world, religion with the spiritual world--one can't inherit the other. I also made the point that complete investment in physical sensation is a losing proposition because we're all going to lose our physical bodies eventually.

curious2 says

Religion hasn't really advanced in 2,000 years,

Human nature hasn't changed in 2,000 years, but it's Christianity that offers redemption.

curious2 says

You've sacrificed so much to their fraud, your whole life

Having some of the same friends for nearly 60 years, an extended family of believers since 1957, a comfortable home and retirement don't seem like sacrifices at all.

curious2 says

Rin

I wasn't going to mention anyone by name, but since you brought him up, let's talk about Rin. If you have a daughter, would you want her to be one of his conquests? One of his "ho's"? He's an icon to emulate or care what he thinks?

Dan8267 says

Allowing homosexual couples to adopt children is the free market solution, and allowing homosexual couples to compete with heterosexual for parenthood would be a good thing anyway.

As Judge Judy would say: "You're making it up as you go along."

P N Dr Lo R says

You just ignored them because you can't deny them.

I read your fictions and can deny them as easily as you can say them, because they lack evidence. In fact, people have a mix of constructive and destructive impulses, which evolved over time. The ancient Greeks and Romans provided the foundation for western civilization, long before Christianity. Christianity caused the fall of Rome, setting back western civilization for 1,000 years until the Enlightenment and our Republic broke religion's hold on power. Your claims about physical sensation are irrelevant, as you would know if you had ever been married or at least experienced love.

P N Dr Lo R says

Having some of the same friends for nearly 60 years, an extended family of believers since 1957, a comfortable home and retirement don't seem like sacrifices at all.

None so blind as those who refuse to see. Waco is terribly limited, and your echo chamber doesn't change the fact your beliefs are as false as the Davidians'. Different people can feel "comfortable" in different circumstances, but I wouldn't trade for a "Park Avenue" shack. I prefer living among people who appreciate life, rather than among bitter old bigots longing for death.

Human nature doesn't change, but you are wrong to expect your particular church to offer "redemption." No empty promise of eternal reward will forgive you for wasting the dawn. Nothing justifies your judgment and condemnation of others who do nothing destructive. You are especially wrong in your bigoted judgment against healthy families who teach their children to appreciate life. Your failure to respect others as you would have them respect you is entirely your own, not Christian.

P N Dr Lo R says

let's talk about Rin.

AFAIK, what he does is legal where he does it, the women seem happy about it, and there don't appear to be any injuries, so it is neither my place nor yours to judge him. After completing his career in finance, he wants to do scientific research. If he advances science in a way that helps people live healthier and longer lives, then he will have contributed more than your church ever did.

BTW, your religion says to rely on faith healing, so you can quit your meds now and go even sooner to the empty promise of "paradise" awaiting you. Just don't set your shack on fire, or hijack a plane into a building.

Dan8267 says

You are in direct contradiction with yourself. Free speech and religion are mutually exclusive. Case example, boy arrested for showing disrespect to Christian god.

That's not correct logic, dude. You are tacitly assuming that religious freedom includes the right to restrict free speech. It does not.

justme says

Dan8267 says

You are in direct contradiction with yourself. Free speech and religion are mutually exclusive. Case example, boy arrested for showing disrespect to Christian god.

That's not correct logic, dude. You are tacitly assuming that religious freedom includes the right to restrict free speech. It does not.

Dan is right on this. What is blasphemy?

justme says

By the way, Dan. If you ban Christianity, I bet it will become really popular. Boys will become bad. Chicks will dig it. Etc, etc.

That belief is almost as delusional as all other Christian beliefs.

NuttBoxer says

Creation is definitely in the Bible though. Are you a programmer? If you are and you've ever worked on anything remotely complex, tell me how well it would function if you just mixed the code around in different methods, models, libraries, etc, then blasted it all into your Prod environment? When you look at the amount of inter-relationship, complexity that exists in the countless interactions of this world, to believe in anything but intelligent design is absurd.

More evidence that religion rots brains. It's not something without extremely bad consequences, including in America today. No one would be foolish enough to believe in creationism if not for religion. That alone justifies banning it. The consequences of irrationality are simply too high. Those consequences include the extinction of the human race through nuclear war or ecological collapse.

Straw Man says

Whoever likes watching LGBT videos - can knock himself out. But nobody shall be forced to watch them, religion or not.

Clearly there were huge problems with personnel mistreating LGBT citizens and opening up the state to lawsuits as well as failing to perform there duty. If a job requires that you were a certain uniform than you either stfu and wear it or you quit the job. If your job requires completing a training course you either stfu and pass the course or you quit. You are not entitled to a job you refuse to do or an income paid with tax payer dollars if you aren't willing to do the job and do it right even when it involves interacting with LGBT tax payers.

That special snowflake should have been fired on the spot. You don't have to like everything about your job, but you do have to do it. It's a job, not welfare.

curious2 says

Dan8267 says

There is no upside to irrationality and delusion.

Religion appears to correlate positively with birthrates, so in that sense it is adaptive.

And that would have been an up side in the Stone Age. Today there are 7 billion soon-to-be 10 billion people on the planet, and we have enough clean drinking water for 2.3 billion of them. It's a down side today.

curious2 says

Nearly every advance in science has resulted from disproving the delusions that preceded it, including those held by seemingly rational scientists.

Which demonstrates that science is a self-correcting mechanism. Religion clearly is not. It's as bad as it's always been and not getting any better. Meanwhile, it's promoting foolishness that threatens the very survival of our species and is hampering the development of morality and ethics, two fields harmed irrevocably by religion.

Strategist says

Stop knocking Christianity all the time. They are pussycats compared to Muslims. I

And rapists are pussycats compared to torturers. But why should we tolerate either crime, especially if the lesser crime enables the greater one?

P N Dr Lo R says

Human nature hasn't changed in 2,000 years, but it's Christianity that offers redemption.

Charlatans have always offered great things. They never deliver. Jesus was a fraud. So has been every pope ever.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

Allowing homosexual couples to adopt children is the free market solution, and allowing homosexual couples to compete with heterosexual for parenthood would be a good thing anyway.

As Judge Judy would say: "You're making it up as you go along."

By definition, letting the free market decide is a free market solution. Making up a line of reasoning that follows deductive logic is still indisputable truth. Your counter-argument contains no material.

justme says

Dan8267 says

You are in direct contradiction with yourself. Free speech and religion are mutually exclusive. Case example, boy arrested for showing disrespect to Christian god.

That's not correct logic, dude. You are tacitly assuming that religious freedom includes the right to restrict free speech. It does not.

The example indisputably demonstrates that tolerating the existence of Christianity does cause the courts to restrict free speech including precisely the kind of speech the First Amendment was written to protect. Ignoring facts does not make them go away. Also, facts aren't logic. They are facts. They are backed by evidence and have nothing to do with logic. It is a fact that Christianity has caused our court system to undermine and violate the First Amendment. No logic is needed to support that fact as it is supported by empirical evidence.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Stop knocking Christianity all the time. They are pussycats compared to Muslims. I

And rapists are pussycats compared to torturers. But why should we tolerate either crime, especially if the lesser crime enables the greater one?

Because it's a waste of time going after the lesser evil when the greater evil stands before you.

Strategist says

Dan is right on this. What is blasphemy?

Blasphemy is the ultimate expression of free speech. It's worth dying for, and it's certainly worth killing tyrants for.

Strategist says

Because it's a waste of time going after the lesser evil when the greater evil stands before you.

Tell that to every cop who believes in the Broken Window Theory. They do argue that prosecuting the lesser evil prevents greater evils, and they have evidence to back that up.

NuttBoxer says

What did God ever do to you Dan to make you so bitter?

Nothing. The Christian god is a fictional entity and as such has never done anything to anyone. However, its followers have committed the greatest atrocities in all of human history and continue to do great harm to America today.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

You are in direct contradiction with yourself. Free speech and religion are mutually exclusive. Case example, boy arrested for showing disrespect to Christian god.

Stop knocking Christianity all the time. They are pussycats compared to Muslims. If that 14 year old showed that kind of disrespect to Allah in the Mid East, he would instantly get beheaded.

Christianity preaches love and forgiveness.
Islam preaches beheadings.

Dan8267 says

NuttBoxer says

What did God ever do to you Dan to make you so bitter?

Nothing. The Christian god is a fictional entity and as such has never done anything to anyone. However, its followers have committed the greatest atrocities in all of human history and continue to do great harm to America today.

Christianity is why America still exists today, you are a blind man Dan. Your dislike for Christianity has made you blind to reality. You support everything that ruins societies, and anti anything that brings society together. Christianity brings cohesiveness, LGBT crap destroys society.