patrick.net

bob2356 says

If the government steps in and sets prices across the board then it's not a free market.

It's not a free market if we have drug patents and licenses that limit the number of doctors and clinics. The free market went out the window a long time ago.

Dan8267 says

It's not a free market if we have drug patents and licenses that limit the number of doctors and clinics. The free market went out the window a long time ago.

Or a blanket ban on imported drugs from developed countries.

If we did a theoretical exercise and imagined going to a health care system whereby there was no insurance, and doctors, medications, hospitals, device makers, etc., were all paid in cash, with no middlemen (there are currently LITERALLY DOZENS OR MANY DOZENS OF MIDDLEMEN, that leech monies through bureaucracy, administration, price-fixing, etc., an example of this is 30,000 plus medical billing codes whereby there are dozens if not hundreds of different prices for same services, procedures, medications, etc. based on who is being charged and who is insured and what insurance they do or do not have), we'd get true price-discovery in medical care, with medical schools, doctors, hospitals, drug makers, device makers, etc. all having to completely revolutionize their business models and structures to become as efficient as Amazon or other such companies, and prices would fall dramatically (probably by a factor of 300% to 3,000%, depending of service, medication, device, treatment, procedure, diagnosis, care being provided/furnished).

AllTruth says

If we did a theoretical exercise and imagined going to a health care system whereby there was no insurance, and doctors, medications, hospitals, device makers, etc., were all paid in cash, with no middlemen (there are currently LITERALLY DOZENS OR MANY DOZENS OF MIDDLEMEN, that leech monies through bureaucracy, administration, price-fixing, etc., an example of this is 30,000 plus medical billing codes whereby there are dozens if not hundreds of different prices for same services, procedures, medications, etc. based on who is being charged and who is insured and what insurance they do or do not have), we'd get true price-discovery in medical care, with medical schools, doctors, hospitals, drug makers, device makers, etc. all having to completely revolutionize their business models and structures to become as efficient as Amazon or other such companies, and prices would fall dramatically (probably by a factor of 300% to 3,000%, depending of service, medication, device, treatment, proc...

We can reduce our healthcare costs by almost 80% today without changing any of that. All it takes is personal responsibility, which is severely lacking.

FortWayne says

We can reduce our healthcare costs by almost 80% today without changing any of that. All it takes is personal responsibility, which is severely lacking.

Yeah, no action is required except praying away sickness.

AllTruth says

The U.S. Should Go To A Single-Payer, Everyone Gets Medical Care, System, PERIOD

YES!!

Next can we force everyone to only be allowed to shit in their own bathroom, public toilets should be reserved for their rightful use, glory holes, and homo/bi/trans-sexual trysting.

NuttBoxer says

glory holes, and homo/bi/trans-sexual trysting.

I knew you used glory holes for punching nuts.

Check this out guys.
Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, and Charlie Munger on healthcare. 2 minute videos.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/08/charlie-munger-the-amount-of-waste-from-overtreatment-of-the-dying-is-just-disgusting.html

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/08/forget-taxes-warren-buffett-says-the-real-problem-is-health-care.html

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

If the government steps in and sets prices across the board then it's not a free market.

It's not a free market if we have drug patents

If we don't have drug patents, no company will bother to develop new drugs. Don't tell me governments can do the same job, because they can't, as proven by communist governments.
We probably need a single payer for health care, the ability to buy drugs from anywhere else in the world, and allow outsourcing of medical care to countries that can do the same thing at a fraction of the cost.

AllTruth says

If we did a theoretical exercise and imagined going to a health care system whereby there was no insurance, and doctors, medications, hospitals, device makers, etc., were all paid in cash, with no middlemen (there are currently LITERALLY DOZENS OR MANY DOZENS OF MIDDLEMEN, that leech monies through bureaucracy, administration, price-fixing, etc., an example of this is 30,000 plus medical billing codes whereby there are dozens if not hundreds of different prices for same services, procedures, medications, etc. based on who is being charged and who is insured and what insurance they do or do not have), we'd get true price-discovery in medical care, with medical schools, doctors, hospitals, drug makers, device makers, etc. all having to completely revolutionize their business models and structures to become as efficient as Amazon or other such companies, and prices would fall dramatically (probably by a factor of 300% to 3,000%, depending of service, medication, device, treatment, procedu...

Most people who get a major illness would end up dying.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

If the government steps in and sets prices across the board then it's not a free market.

It's not a free market if we have drug patents

If we don't have drug patents, no company will bother to develop new drugs. Don't tell me governments can do the same job, because they can't, as proven by communist governments.

We probably need a single payer for health care, the ability to buy drugs from anywhere else in the world, and allow outsourcing of medical care to countries that can do the same thing at a fraction of the cost.

If people are free to screw up their health consciously, others shouldn't be responsible. Bad outcomes are the only real deterrent to unhealthy choices.

FortWayne says

If people are free to screw up their health consciously, others shouldn't be responsible. Bad outcomes are the only real deterrent to unhealthy choices.

Those who smoke, drink too much, eat garbage would be examples, but there is no practical way to exclude them from healthcare.
What might work is tax the hell out of cigarettes, alcohol, and fattening food, and use that tax towards healthcare. So irresponsible really end up paying for their stupidity.

i fail to see the connection from "Medical Care Complex is ripping everyone off" to "therefore, you should pay for some losers' medical bills."

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

i fail to see the connection from "Medical Care Complex is ripping everyone off" to "therefore, you should pay for some losers' medical bills."

Simple. Some folks (like the Jesus lover above) would rather have the Med. Complex ripping them and everyone off, than pay a dollar for somebody else's health care.

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

If the government steps in and sets prices across the board then it's not a free market.

It's not a free market if we have drug patents and licenses that limit the number of doctors and clinics. The free market went out the window a long time ago.

I didn't say there was a free market. I said free market advocates have painted themselves in a corner. Read the whole post next time.

Sorry for not being a expert on goat anuses like you, piggy. At least I know how to recharge #rechargableBatteriesDumbass so to keep electronics working.

Strategist says

and allow outsourcing of medical care to countries that can do the same thing at a fraction of the cost.

We have that now, it's called medical tourism. Considering only something like 20% of Americans even have a passport and there are only about 11 million people a year that go overseas it's not going to be a big option. Very few Americans go abroad.

The down side is that in most of these countries if it goes bad you don't have any legal recourse. It's strictly buyer beware. You can get very good care, but you need to do your homework.

Strategist says

FortWayne says

If people are free to screw up their health consciously, others shouldn't be responsible. Bad outcomes are the only real deterrent to unhealthy choices.

Those who smoke, drink too much, eat garbage would be examples, but there is no practical way to exclude them from healthcare.

What might work is tax the hell out of cigarettes, alcohol, and fattening food, and use that tax towards healthcare. So irresponsible really end up paying for their stupidity.

I suppose that would be a good free market solution that would work as a deterrent. But you know how it is, idea might be great but somehow the markets change and twist it somehow in an unpredictable ways. I wonder how this one would work out.

bob2356 says

and allow outsourcing of medical care to countries that can do the same thing at a fraction of the cost.

We have that now, it's called medical tourism. Considering only something like 20% of Americans even have a passport and there are only about 11 million people a year that go overseas it's not going to be a big option. Very few Americans go abroad.

The down side is that in most of these countries if it goes bad you don't have any legal recourse. It's strictly buyer beware. You can get very good care, but you need to do your homework.

We need our insurance companies to allow medical tourism. Follow up care can always be done in the US.
e.g. I had a torn meniscus last year. The total cost was an astounding $15,000 + for the 15 minute surgery. My share was $3,000. My insurance, Aetna PPO should just contract with hospitals in Thailand, Singapore and India where the total cost including airfare would be about $3,000.
Prescription medicine in India costs just 2% of what it costs in the US for the same damn thing. Any way you look at it, our healthcare costs for whatever reason are out of control. We need a drastic change.

Strategist says

We need our insurance companies to allow medical tourism. Follow up care can always be done in the US.

A number of them do. Did you ask? Skip India/Thailand and go for Malaysia. Prince Court Medical Center Kuala Lumpur is ranked the number one hospital for “patients without borders” by the Medical Travel Quality Alliance. Costa RIca is a good choice if you don't want to hump half way around the world, Plus it's an awesome place that I've spent considerable time exploring. If I weren't a very serious skier/boarder I'd really consider living there.

For a brief period you could do medical tourism in NZ until the government figured out the public system would end up backstopping the private system without being paid for it if anything went wrong.

Health care costs are out of control for many reasons but drastic change isn't going to happen. It's just going to get worse and worse.

"If we don't have drug patents, no company will bother to develop new drugs"

Of course they would. Companies develop new products all the time without getting patents.

At the end of the day any plan called "Single Payer" or any plan that will eventually evolve into a "Single Payer"

Simply means you are the single person responsible for paying the out of pocket, the deductibles, the doctor visits and the bulk of any medical work done.
The Liberals and Republicans have been delivering us a Single Payer plan for year, you're just too stupid to ask the right question.

It's called "Government Healthcare" you dickweeds, get used to dismal failure until you can learn what to ask for.