patrick.net

errc says

As an American, are you more likely to be harmed by a Christian Drunk Driver, or a Muslim Jihadist?

False comparison.

We're comparing Christianity and Islamic fueled terror. Drunk Driving is not an act of religion. Going on Jihad is.

P N Dr Lo R says

It worked with the Japs.

Actually, no, it did not. When Japan surrendered to the United States, our government forced the emperor to admit that he was not a god, something the Japanese people believed. So the example you are using is one in which the United States directly and irrefutably interfered with freedom of religion and explicitly ended a religion that they did not want to exist. Your example proves my point.

errc says

No wonder we're so fucked. Logic and Reason were long ago abandoned, seemingly, IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!

Where'd the steam engine, cotton gin, railroad, etc. come from then?

rando says

That's true. Jesus fucked no little boys in the ass.

They do it because of the unattural way of life their religion imposes on them. Hence it is a direct consequence of Christianity. That was my point in case you did not get it.

rando says

Please hang around Muslims much more.

Nice! Very Christian of you!

If someone points out the harm and suffering caused here at home by Christians, wish death upon them!

Lulululululu!!

rando says

errc says

They're not Real Christians!

That's true.

This is exactly the same No True Scottsman argument that the left makes about Islam. Hell, Batman famously made this argument to Bill Maher and Sam Harris. Do I need to post the video?

I'm sorry, but power based on lies is ripe for abuse, and so the lie is very much relevant to the abuse of power.

rando says

Christians have done bad things in spite of Christian teaching.

There is good and evil in the Bible, including the New Testament, as well as in the Quran. Yes, you could argue that there are more vile passages in the Quran than the New Testament, but you are still cherry picking. The New Testament is pro-slavery and was used as an argument for slavery by the South. And quite frankly, if you can't even get the issue of slavery right, you're a shit source of morality.

There is NO good moral in the New Testament that relies on the supernatural. Even in principle, at best the New Testament is worthless. Historically, it has been counter-productive.

I have a long response to one of Marcus's post. Instead of breaking it down into several pieces, I just opened a new thread for it. It probably deserves its own thread anyway as the subject matter is rich enough. So here's the link.

The useful lie is not useful

I'll gladly defend my position against any attack.

Dan8267 says

I have a long response to one of Marcus's post. Instead of breaking it down into several pieces, I just opened a new thread for it. It probably deserves its own thread anyway as the subject matter is rich enough. So here's the link.

The useful lie is not useful

I'll gladly defend my position against any attack.

You "banned" half the forum, so the only person you need to defend your points are against yourself.

I'm opposed to celibacy for priests. Nor did I say that there is no harm from certain Christian beliefs. Celibacy for priests is not even intrinsic to Christianity. It was tacked on by Rome much later.

I think you're arguing that splattering the bodies of teen girls with explosives is somehow no worse than celibacy for priests.

errc says

If someone points out the harm and suffering caused here at home by Christians, wish death upon them!

No, Islam is the religion of peace. I was just wishing you more peace by wishing you more Islam.

FortWayne says

You "banned" half the forum, so the only person you need to defend your points are against yourself.

An outright lie. I banned a few persistent trolls who have never added anything to the conversation and have just derailed conversations. Banning trolls and banning political dissent are not the same thing. And it's not a coincidence that the same people tend to be banned by various persons.

In any case, you can reply to that post in this thread and I'll gladly thrash your ass in a debate. I feel a bit bad doing that since it's like playing basketball against a toddler who stands no chance, but I'll do it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

Salman Abedi. Born in Manchester in 1994, the second youngest of four children his parents were Libyan refugees who came to the UK to escape the Gaddafi regime. His parents were both born in Libya but appear to have emigrated to London before moving to the Fallowfield area of south Manchester where they have lived for at least ten years.

Lots more details:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/manchester-arena-attack-22-killed-suicide-bomber-ariana-grande/

Damn Christians, right?

The heart of the matter is the heart of the two religions.

What do they teach?

Christians have done bad things in spite of Christian teaching.

Muslims have done and keep doing bad things because of Islamic teaching.

--------------

Does it matter more what you think they teach, or their actual actions in the real world?

Are you attempting to build some bullshit case, that it all boils down to intent?

That Muslims supposedly try to harm you on purpose, but Christians only harm you on accident?

This is the fatal flaw in the heinous sect of modern Christianity: that everyone is born with sin, and all sins can be forgiven by simply asking Jesus for forgiveness. I could tell that this was horseshit by the time I was Six years old. Christianity should be classified as a mental disorder, although it seems more parasitical much like Toxoplasmosis Gondii.

Notice that as an Irish Catholic, I didn't even have to defend Islam, merely point out the similarities in Christianity, and you immediately wished death upon me. Wowza

errc says

Does it matter more what you think they teach, or their actual actions in the real world?

Actions in the real world.

Like splattering the bodies of innocent girls across an auditorium.

Why doesn't it seem to matter to you?

rando says

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

old Salman Abedi.Born in Manchester in 1994, the second youngest of four children his parents were Libyan refugees who came to the UK to escape the Gaddafi regime.His parents were both born in Libya but appear to have emigrated to London before moving to the Fallowfield area of south Manchester where they have lived for at least ten years.They had three sons in total and a daughter, who is now

Seems like a standard pattern. Young, naive, muslim, doing poorly financially... radicalized online goes to blow people up. These people are actively trying to murder us.

It's a crazy world out there. And America is the last beacon of freedom that stands against all that.

rando says

The heart of the matter is the heart of the two religions.

What do they teach?

So, do we judge religion by what is in the book or by the actions of the followers? There sure are a lot of arguments being made based on the actions of a small minority of the followers today. Those arguments ignore history.

rando says

Jesus fucked no little boys in the ass.

You do realize that you personally disagree with most of Jesus's teachings, right? Sure, you believe people should be nice, but you don't believe what Jesus actually taught. Think about the things you strongly disagree with.

Jesus would say that Europe and America should welcome Muslims in with open arms, even the ones intending to commit terrorist acts. After all, if you are blown up by a terrorist, that just shows how much you love your fellow man, and you'll be in heaven that day.

Jesus would be entirely against killing terrorists. Do good to those who hurt you. Turn the other cheek. Never take a life.

Jesus would also object to you living a life that was in any way comfortable. He told people to give up all their wealth, not excessive wealth, but all wealth. And he did this in a time long before air conditioning, cars, smart phones, washing machines, or indoor plumbing. Having a clay hut and a fire pit was luxury in his time. He meant you should live a very harsh and basic life devoid of all comforts.

Jesus was also the mother of all socialists. Capitalism is completely incompatible with his teachings. He believed in the core principle of communism, redistributing wealth according to need, not merit or desire or productivity, and certainly not by ownership rights.

Jesus was anti-weapons and that would certainly include anti-guns. The character of Jesus was the ultimate pacifist. He did not even resist being tortured and killed slowly. He certainly would not approve of packing heat to protect yourself. Jesus never carried a dagger, nonetheless a bow. He would be appalled at the very idea of a gun.

Since you reject most of Jesus's core teachings, why do you hold him as an example of how to be? The only teaching of his you seem to like is "be nice", and that's hardly unique to him.

I think you need to follow a new savior.

www.youtube.com/embed/t3ICRoe-QIw

Everything good about the New Testament without all the embarrassing baggage like slavery.

errc says

That Muslims supposedly try to harm you on purpose

This wasn't an accident, this was planned. This man was radicalized by an "organization", heavily financially backed. This isn't just some guy who got a few screws loose because he did too much cocaine. This is the result of the work of entire muslim based organizations that are constantly, constantly trying to undermine and murder us.

Do you not get it? ISIS and whoever else out there, they want us dead. And this is the best they can do for now, but if they could, they'd be blowing up a heck of a lot more people up in US.

errc says

That Muslims supposedly try to harm you on purpose, but Christians only harm you on accident?

This is exactly true.

Islam is trying to harm you on purpose, because you have rejected Islam. Christians are not trying to harm you at all.

errc says

Christianity should be classified as a mental disorder

If you think that, why do you never mention the Islamic mental disorder which is causing carnage around the world right now?

errc says

you immediately wished death upon me

No, I wished Islam on you. You don't seem to think that Islam is any threat to your safety, so it's all good, right?

rando says

Salman Abedi. Born in Manchester in 1994, the second youngest of four children his parents were Libyan refugees who came to the UK to escape the Gaddafi regime. His parents were both born in Libya but appear to have emigrated to London before moving to the Fallowfield area of south Manchester where they have lived for at least ten years.

This is gratitude, the Islamic way. Crazy pedophile loving lunatics.

YesYNot says

Those arguments ignore history.

You seem to be ignoring Islamic history.

rando says

errc says

If someone points out the harm and suffering caused here at home by Christians, wish death upon them!

No, Islam is the religion of peace. I was just wishing you more peace by wishing you more Islam.

Oh, my bad. Here I thought you were arguing that Islam demands that their followers kill all the infidels. After I gave some undisputed, real world examples of Christians causing harm, you got all triggered and wished death upon me.

Notice, I've yet to defend Islam. But this is exactly how Real Christians react to facts. They wish death on others. It's fucking sad, and I'm arguing in favor of stopping religious institutions from harming people. I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing in favor of, although it seems that you're fighting to suppress sny Speech that sheds less than positive light on Christianity.

I hope you never left your son alone in a Christian church, with a priest. God save you, if you have.

remember when Jesus was concieved? His mother was a virgin, how very scientific of your Home Team religion, Rocky

rando says

You seem to be ignoring Islamic history

I'm simply pointing out that nobody even bothers to defend the actions of Christians over the last 2000 years. Nobody even acknowledges the need to do so. There must be a reason for it.

errc says

and wished death upon me.

No, once again I wished Islam upon you, the religion of peace, right? If you think that Islam might not be a religion of peace, please say so. I would not want to wish anything on you that you object to.

I'm not a believing Christian by the way. I just happen to have actually read and considered the examples and arguments in the New Testament and found them greatly superior to the Koran's incitement to hate and kill.

errc says

you're fighting to suppress sny Speech

Have I suppressed your speech?

errc says

Notice, I've yet to defend Islam.

That's wrong. You have very clearly defended Islam by your tacit approval of the mass murder in Manchester. Your silence about the murders speaks volumes.

rando says

errc says

Notice, I've yet to defend Islam.

That's wrong. You have very clearly defended Islam by your tacit approval of the mass murder in Manchester. Your silence about the murders speaks volumes.

Wow, just wow. My approval of the mass murder? What other words do you want to put in my mouth this afternoon.

Here's an idea. Some of us are better than others at identifying actual threats. Have you ever heard the term " to have a healthy fear of something "? As an American living in the real world, I'm simply using facts and reality to do a cost benefit analysis on what i should actually worry about. Like getting maimed by a Christian drunk driver, or the 1200+ poor souls that died last year due to Opiod overdose in Philadelphia alone, after their Christian doctors prescribed them highly addictive pain meds, instead of say, medical cannabis, which this Christian society will kill you for utilizing. Or maybe kill your neighbor on accident, when they serve a no knock warrant at the wrong address. I'm worried for my teens driving on the roads, where tens of millions of obese ( one of eight of the seven deadly sins) Christians are driving about very dangerously looking at their phones.

Islamic terror in the Middle East is barely a blip on the radar. I mean, it might have been a problem worth concerning over, until Trump left Saudi Arabia off the Muslim ban list and i knew it was all a ruse.

You could use a breath of fresh air snd some perspective, put the keyboard down for a little why don't you

errc says

My approval of the mass murder?

Let me look it up for you:

Tacit approval is a form of approval that is not expressed clearly, in words. It is silent approval. It is approval that is implied by other statements, actions or by a failure to clearly express disapproval with the situation, performance, idea, plan or request.

So what's with your tacit approval of the mass murder in Manchester?

BTW, in accordance with your wishes, I hope no one ever treats you in a Christian way. (If I were a real Christian, I could not even say such a thing.)

rando says

I think you're arguing that splattering the bodies of teen girls with explosives is somehow no worse than celibacy for priests.

I don't know how you could reach conclusion.

Because you brought it up as an explicit comparison to the carnage in Manchester.

I do not approve of the mass murder in Manchester, or any mass murder, for that matter.

What is it with your tacit approval of the Institutional little boy penis touching of tens of thousands of young boys, by your beloved Christians?

i get that you're just another Christian defending your fairy tale of choice, but you ought be smart enough to see it for what it is. However, this is the problem with Christians: their religion demands that you abandon reason and thought, for unquestioned beliefs.

Remember the virgin birth lmao

BTW, in accordance with your wishes, I hope no one ever treats you in a Christian way. (If I were a real Christian, I could not even say such a thing.)

--------------

I'd pray to a God if I was gullible enough to believe in such nonsense, that no Christian ever impose their Christianity upon me, but alas, it's virtually impossible to escape the suffering wrought by Christians on this once great nation

I brought it as an example of religious beliefs, other than Muslim, leading to horrible things. Nowhere did I classify or imply which is worse.

Dan8267 says

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Like clockwork, the pro-delusion side repeats this debunked lie. Tom Selleck and Charlie Chaplin are the most dangerous despots ever.

And all these things, from the ancient to today, are intrinsic to religion. The hatred of gays, the torturing of religious opponents, the destruction of knowledge, the suppression of women are all done specifically because the religion demands it. In contrast, Stalin's and Mao's evil was solely due to imperialistic greed, not atheism, and is not supported by atheists or even acknowledged as atheist philosophy.

So the fact that Stalin was an atheist is as relevant as the fact that he had a mustach...

Like clockwork Dan trots out the red herring of mustaches being more important characteristics than ideas. Clearly the idea(s) of communism are relevant motivators to what communists do. while mustaches are evidence of people's motivation (to look like cops or porn stars or badasses depending on your opinion of mustaches), NOT the source of their motivation. The master of fallacious arguments strikes again, are you not ashamed of the endless fallacies you sling around.

but to the point of this thread, clearly the teachings and ideas of Islamists continue to spread hatred and violence throughout the world.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Dan said: "And all these things, from the ancient to today, are intrinsic to religion. The hatred of gays, the torturing of religious opponents, the destruction of knowledge, the suppression of women are all done specifically because the religion demands it."

I agree Dan religion APPEARS to motivate SOME people (though clearly not all) who practice religion to hate, torture, etc... (Though I would argue that hatred, and violence comes from within the human heart rather than from outside it). But the question I have for you is what motivates atheists to kill and imprison people of faith?

There is plenty of violence and hate in this world that has nothing to do with religion.

That being said, Islam was and is used to promote violence and enslavement of non-moslems. And it really isn't any better for moslems, they have to live under sharia.

So if solving the Islamic problem is the hill you wish to die on (or more likely, send someone else's son to die on in the name of MIC profits and Christian delusions), what is the solution?

As Bellingham Bill used to say," Nezzuna solucion, Nunca problema"

errc says

I do not approve of the mass murder in Manchester

Thank you. Why the great reluctance to say it? Closet Muslim?

For the record, of course I object to all child abuse. The difference here is that child abuse is not officially part of Christianity, while it is in fact officially part of Islam from the moment when Mohammed fucked 9 year old Ayesha. He's the "example for all of humanity" you know.

And sex with children is explicitly approved of by Islamic scholars down to the present day:

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister.
Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom"

May Islam be with you all the time.

Have I suppressed your speech?

------------

Not yet, however you got oddly nasty at the notion that America should get it's house in order before we go making another mess of someone else's house. Parlay that with pointing out the evil in Christianity, and you immediately wished death upon me. Again odd for someone who is generally quite reasonable and rational, and oft open to any ideas or possibilities.

Not here, though. Speaking truth to the failings of Christianity really triggered the fuck out of you. Why?

FP says

I brought it as an example of religious beliefs, other than Muslim, leading to horrible things. Nowhere did I classify or imply which is worse.

You brought it up as an example of religious harm explicitly as a comparison to the carnage in Manchester. Why else would you bring it up in a thread about Manchester?

errc says

Speaking truth to the failings of Christianity really triggered the fuck out of you. Why?

No, it's your failure to condemn the carnage caused by a Muslim in the name of Islam. Don't really mind what you say about Christianity.

errc says

So if solving the Islamic problem is the hill you wish to die on (or more likely, send someone else's son to die on in the name of MIC profits and Christian delusions), what is the solution?

The solution is very simple.

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.