patrick.net

Here are some elements of a timeline, as known today. All times are approximate

22:09 hours: shooting starts
TBD hours: shooting ends
22:25 hours: police arrive outside hotel suite of shooter, wikipedia says shots fired out through door at some unknown time thereafter
23:21 hours: police breaches door to hotel suite and finds the suspect dead, apparently from self-inflicted gunshot wound

It's is time for the first reasoned criticism: Why no immediate response from a Las Vegas Police helicopter? This seems like a huge tactical error. Given that it was soon known that gunfire was from an elevated position and in the general direction of Mandalay Bay casino, a brave helicopter pilot using a high-power searchlight could have made a big difference both as an offensive and defensive aid, with the following functions:

1. locating the shooter
2. visibly marking the shooter so as to assist the public in taking effective cover
3. distracting the shooter
4. indeed, blinding the shooter sufficiently that he would not be able to see his intended victims

So, I ask, why no Las Vegas Police helicopter with a search light aimed up high? Please don't tell me that this was for "officer safety" reasons -- all these officers that fashion themselves as brave and heroic need to ACT brave and heroic when it is needed.

For reference, here is an article from August 2017 about the new Las Vegas police helicopter:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/las-vegas-police-unveil-new-9-6m-helicopter/

Nice suicide photo in there..

justme says

why no Las Vegas Police helicopter with a search light aimed up high

Hmmm, blinding lights could have saved lives by making it impossible for the guy to see.

Patrick says

justme says

why no Las Vegas Police helicopter with a search light aimed up high

Hmmm, blinding lights could have saved lives by making it impossible for the guy to see.

By the time they figured out where he was firing from, and got the choppers up there, it would be all over. There is no way in hell these things can be prevented. The Islamic terrorists are gonna get lots of ideas from this.

justme says

It's is time for the first reasoned criticism: Why no immediate response from a Las Vegas Police helicopter? This seems like a huge tactical error. Given that it was soon known that gunfire was from an elevated position and in the general direction of Mandalay Bay casino, a brave helicopter pilot using a high-power searchlight could have made a big difference both as an offensive and defensive aid, with the following functions:

Chopper would have gone down in two seconds with automatic weapons being fired at it (chopper damage or pilot being shot). Knowing the shooter was a pilot, and even though it wasn't his type of bird he flew, he likely would know how to take it out. It's a good thing this didn't happen because you don't know where it would have crashed. Hell it could have crashed on the crowd.

Only way a chopper comes in is if they're prepared to launch a rocket, missile or whatever at the hotel and knock out the shooters position. Which means potential mass casualties in the surrounding rooms. I know it's Vegas, but there were likely people sleeping at that time on a Sunday night. Gamblers tend to lean towards the older demo and go to bed early I would think. Also, I pray (not religious at all) that a municipal police department doesn't have choppers with attack capabilities.

This is my immediate criticism of your request for reasoned criticism of the event. React appropriately.

@WookieMan, you do not have to ask me to react appropriately. I will. My response is that it is not easy to hit an object (helicopter) that is , say 500m away, when you are blinded. You simply cannot see the center of the light and aim clearly. There is definitely some danger, but that is what heroes are for. Two helicopters alternating and /or flashing at the shooter would be even better.

I doubt one can reasonably argue against using a helicopter with a searchlight if one had been present. On that we can surely agree? Look at the map. The helicopter could get there in 1min from the airport or heliport, which is less than 1km away. It could hover over one of the multiple dirt lots with no buildings, or over a (closed) runway/taxiway at the airport.

justme says

I doubt one can reasonably argue against using a helicopter with a searchlight if one had been present. On that we can surely agree?

I don't know, as you mentioned we don't know all the details. Could he have had night vision goggles? I personally haven't used them before, but I'd be surprised if bright light would blind the user to the point of not being able to aim and function a firearm with them on. Given some of the photos in your link, I wouldn't be surprised if there was other advanced equipment this guy had outside of weapons and some cameras.

And unfortunately, when you're able to fire hundreds of rounds in a minute, hitting a helicopter within light blinding range wouldn't be all that difficult. Not that it's applied to this exact situation, but this is the reason fully automatic weapons are frowned upon. You don't need that much accuracy. You just need volume and a general direction.

Either way, the helicopter would have to get between me and the crowd to affect my vision. The shooter was going for people and probably would have ignored a chopper if it wasn't shooting at him. If a chopper got in the line of sight he'd just keep shooting in the same direction and very likely would hit it if it got in the way. Hence why I mention a chopper crashing in the crowd could have been a bad thing.

You also have to remember reality. I don't fly planes or helicopters, but have researched getting a pilots license. By the time a chopper was ready to get in the vicinity the deal was sealed by the fact he probably killed himself around the time he shot the security guard about 20 min after he started shooting. There's not someone just sitting in a helicopter at 10pm on a Sunday night. Even then it would likely still take 10 minutes for prep to get the thing off the ground. I don't think the chopper would have made a difference in this situation even with the shooters elevated position.

People who are ideologically rigid and motivated will disagree with anything said by people they perceive as their opponents, even if what is said is completely reasonable. Winning!

justme says

It's is time for the first reasoned criticism: Why no immediate response from a Las Vegas Police helicopter? This seems like a huge tactical error.

Helicopters don't fly 24/7. Nor do helicopter pilots. At 10:30 on a sunday night I really doubt the pilot was sitting in the cockpit waiting for a call to go out. Driving to the airport, getting the helicopter out of the hanger, preflightingl and getting it running would take a good amount of time.

justme says

Las Vegas (Mandalay Bay) 2017 mass shooting: the facts

@Patrick, I object to this thread. Facts have no place on PatNet. They interfere with narratives.

Dan8267 says

Facts have no place on PatNet. They interfere with narratives.

Strategist says

The Islamic terrorists are gonna get lots of ideas from this.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-n806586

The death toll ticked up to 59, while the number of injured rose to 527.
Gunman Stephen Paddock had 19 firearms, several thousand rounds of ammunition and explosives in his home, according to investigators, in addition to 23 weapons found in his Mandalay Bay hotel room on the 32nd floor.
Two Nevada gun shops confirmed that they sold firearms to Paddock in the last year and said he passed all required background checks. It's not clear whether those weapons were used in Monday's massacre.
Paddock spent "tens of thousands of dollars" gambling in Las Vegas casinos in recent weeks, law enforcement officials told NBC News. It's unclear whether if he was winning or losing money off those large transactions.
It took 72 minutes from the first 911 call for police to locate the shooter, NBC News reported.
There is no apparent link between Paddock and any international terrorist groups, the FBI said.

Dan8267 says

It took 72 minutes from the first 911 call for police to locate the shooter, NBC News reported.

72min as reported by NBC News is misleading, and makes the police look worse than they actually were. I think the reason is that the 72min includes the time between locating the shooter and breaking in and finding him dead. In fact 72min is exactly 22:09 to 23:21 as in the WIkipedia timeline, but that includes a lot "dead time" (pardon the expression).

an article in the LATines today adds some color to this. In the so called "fog of war" Police dispatch advised to look out for "multiple shooters at multiple locations" with mentions of nearby Tropicana and New York New York. They also could tell from the sounds of multiple calibers that it was multiple weapons.

They also cite unnamed "experts" who said an air attack is "too dangerous"

I think the problem with any after the fact post morterm is that you are always operating with a much clearer picture which you NEVER have in the first critical chaotic minutes.

Imagine ordering the chopper to shine its lights on the mandalay- only to see it blown out of the sky by a shooter from the Tropicana. What too if this wasn't a domestic thing but "9-11 part 2" where someone had a nearby RPG lying in wait For the first responders to show up, then raining down massive explosive firepower turning the strip into a warzone?

>>Imagine ordering the chopper to shine its lights on the mandalay- only to see it blown out of the sky by a shooter from the Tropicana.

Again, risking a pilot and a $9.5M helicopter is a small price to pay for saving multiple lives. Being a hero and protector is what police officers sign up for, and here they had a chance to prove their all-too-common and often unsubstantiated hero claims.

But of course we cannot know what considerations went into choosing not to deploy a helicopter. That is why I raised the question of why-no-helicopter in the first place. Hopefully a journalist will read PatNet and start asking the right questions about the position/whereabouts, operational readiness, and decisions made about police helicopter(s).

I wasn't really thinking of the pilot or cost of the chopper - imagine a shot to the rudder causing the chopper to careen out of control into a crowd, side of a building, etc. I could easily see the criticism being 1000x worse for bringing a huge projectile into a relatively crowded area. Again this assumes the worst case "multiple shooter" or RPG turn out true which is impossible to know in the chaos of the moment.

It is interesting to see that a left-wing peacenik like myself has a better grasp of what constitutes effective and safe anti-terrorism tactics than the combined brainpower of all the right-wing constituents on this site.

Also, I just read a story on the chopper. Facts in your favor are twin engines to keep it flying if one fails and a small rotor for "tight maneuverability"

Speculation against you the chopper is used for rescues at red rock canyon and mt Charleston which are close to each other but 45 Miles from the strip. Even if they did keep it at McCarron (unlikely) they would be constantly criticized for not having it nearer to its intended purpose in the Toyabee Forrest

You don't know the first thing about my politics - nor will you.

I do think it's interesting that you seem to have a very "open and shut" solution based on a situation where by definition it's impossible to know all the variables when you must make a number of life or death decisions.

From ABC news:

"Mullen could see sheriffs officers walking through the hall with guns drawn through peephole in his hotel room door. He could also see a police helicopter flying very close to the hotel and shining a light near the shooters room he said."

It's an attribution quote so I wouldn't take notice of this as a fact til I checked police logs, but it's a pretty clear indication you got your wish here. Apparently those unnamed "experts" were wrong and they did put a helicopter up there. Those "heroes" were out there. Maybe they weren't able to do shit...or maybe "but for" their tactics the death toll would have been twice as high, yet another thing we can never say for sure.

Go search google or The abcnews.go.com site if you want to read more.

I wonder if it is possible that this is a setup and some other people were involved: maybe they "suicided" Paddock in this place, made it look like he was shooting his many weapons, and either had a way to escape the room while police stood outside or were in fact shooting from some other location like the roof.
I'm sure they eliminated that possibility. Just wondering.
If it really really looks like the guy had no motives and no preparation outside the room and car, maybe it's not him.

bob2356 says

It's is time for the first reasoned criticism: Why no immediate response from a Las Vegas Police helicopter? This seems like a huge tactical error.

Helicopters don't fly 24/7. Nor do helicopter pilots. At 10:30 on a sunday night I really doubt the pilot was sitting in the cockpit waiting for a call to go out. Driving to the airport, getting the helicopter out of the hanger, preflightingl and getting it running would take a good amount of time.

This, as I mentioned in my previous comment. And even if pilot was at the hanger, it's not like just starting a car and going. From the time shooting start to the time it stopped, not a chance you could scramble a non-military helicopter in that amount of time. Even if the military was called on there wasn't enough time to get anything done.
anonymous says

Also, I just read a story on the chopper. Facts in your favor are twin engines to keep it flying if one fails and a small rotor for "tight maneuverability"

The mechanical facts are true. But even a blinded shooter spraying automatic weapon fire towards a helicopter has a decent change of getting lucky with a head or body shot on the pilot. At least enough to make him land the thing. And besides the pilot, I wouldn't be worried about the engine. There are hundreds of things just one bullet could rip through to bring a helicopter down or force him to land in fear of crashing into things that would cause further casualties. I know the shooter likely had not played it, but have you ever played Grand Theft Auto? With an automatic weapon your first instinct would be to shoot the helicopter out of the sky to keep the carnage going. Fortunately 99.9999999% of people would never act on that based on a video game.

justme says

It is interesting to see that a left-wing peacenik like myself has a better grasp of what constitutes effective and safe anti-terrorism tactics than the combined brainpower of all the right-wing constituents on this site.

justme says

But of course we cannot know what considerations went into choosing not to deploy a helicopter. That is why I raised the question of why-no-helicopter in the first place. Hopefully a journalist will read PatNet and start asking the right questions about the position/whereabouts, operational readiness, and decisions made about police helicopter(s).

Listen, I don't particularly like getting in to the politics, especially in these circumstances. But you can't have it both ways. You say you're a left-wing peacenik but then you want anti-terrorism equipment (helicopter) that the left-wing likely shuns. You then have an unrealistic expectation of what a helicopter could do and assume in the moment that some police officer is just going to say "fuck it, I'm the hero today" and his superiors or supervisors would go along with it.

If the shooter had kept going 20-30 minutes, I'm all aboard on your thought process. The problem is there's no way to stay constantly prepared for events that have happened once in American history. The costs of keeping a licensed pilot, who would also be a government worker, on the clock and ready to go with a helicopter in most major metropolis' is insane. Any government watch dog would be all over it like flies on shit if a department was doing that. Of course always be prepared as much as you can, but in the end you cannot be prepared for every event or outcome. It's impossible.

And I know it will get called out, so getting in front of it. When I say once in American history I mean the scale of the attack. There really has been nothing close to this level of potential carnage. It could have been SUBSTANTIALLY worse then what it was. I know there have been mass shootings, so not trying to down play those events and the issues behind them.

justme says

It is interesting to see that a left-wing peacenik like myself has a better grasp of what constitutes effective and safe anti-terrorism tactics than the combined brainpower of all the right-wing constituents on this site.

What grasp is that exactly?

anonymous says

From ABC news:

"Mullen could see sheriffs officers walking through the hall with guns drawn through peephole in his hotel room door. He could also see a police helicopter flying very close to the hotel and shining a light near the shooters room he said."

It's an attribution quote so I wouldn't take notice of this as a fact til I checked police logs, but it's a pretty clear indication you got your wish here. Apparently those unnamed "experts" were wrong and they did put a helicopter up there. Those "heroes" were out there. Maybe they weren't able to do shit...or maybe "but for" their tactics the death toll would have been twice as high, yet another thing we can never say for sure.

Go search google or The abcnews.go.com site if you want to read more.

If you got this from ABC news why don't you have the link?

"Mullen said he could see sheriff's officers walking through the hall with guns drawn through the peephole in his hotel room door. He could also see a police helicopter flying very close to the hotel and shining a light near the shooter's room, he said."

If Keanu Reeves can do it in the Matrix, so can the Las Vegas Police!www.youtube.com/embed/QCsQ87fvUuw?t=5s

http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegas-strip-shooting-20-dead-100-injured-gunman/story?id=50223240

anonymous says

http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegas-strip-shooting-20-dead-100-injured-gunman/story?id=50223240

See, was that so hard to do? One guy says he saw it, but no one else anywhere has ever mentioned it. There are plenty of clips videos taken during the shooting. Not one shows a helicopter, never mind a helicopter shining a light at the hotel. I sure don't hear one, just gunfire. Pretty hard to cover up the sound of any helicopter close enough to shine a light, they make a lot of noise and a lot of wind.

Sorry, but one person relating what they thought they saw or heard during a disaster doesn't qualify as proven fact that it happened.

"Two men near Mandalay Bay said they heard someone in a helicopter with a bullhorn yelling, “Go! Go! Go!” as the incident unfolded."

I infer the two "near" the hotel were probably in addition to the one already quoted above, who was reportedly inside the hotel.

This photo shows a helicopter but does not include a time stamp.

Bob said "sorry, but one person relating what they thought they saw or heard during a disaster doesn't qualify as a proven fact that it happened"

Nothing to be sorry for Bob that is why I purposefully said its an attribution quote so I wouldn't take notice of this as a fact till I checked police logs You must have missed that. And I don't know why my link to the story gets held up for hours. Perhaps because I'm using my phone?

Well as we see now from curious2 more and more evidence of the helicopters likely involvement in this incident is documented. If this were an official report I would still collect police logs, but for Patnet purposes this is looking more and more like a fact. Wouldn't you agree?

The only deep question,how many could he have been wounded/killed if he had used stones,sticks,pitchforks,fire pokers,pool cues,barstools & broken beer bottles?
A sling shot rapidly firing poker chips would have been a massycre.
They would all be legal to have in his possession & no one would have ever suspected anything untoward.
He might could have killed thousands.

anonymous says

Well as we see now from curious2 more and more evidence of the helicopters likely involvement in this incident is documented. If this were an official report I would still collect police logs, but for Patnet purposes this is looking more and more like a fact. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree that you and curious george don't have the vaguest clue what the words evidence and fact means.

HEY YOU says

The only deep question,how many could he have been wounded/killed if he had used stones,sticks,pitchforks,fire pokers,pool cues,barstools & broken beer bottles?
A sling shot rapidly firing poker chips would have been a massycre.
They would all be legal to have in his possession & no one would have ever suspected anything untoward.
He might could have killed thousands.

It would be better to hijack an airliner then run it into the hotel so the hotel collapses onto the crowd. The guy took flying lessons. Very suspicious. I think the government agency that arranged 9/11 was afraid they would be identified if the airliner trick was used twice so they gave him a bunch of guns instead.

This makes at least as much sense as some of the other crap posted.

It's clear the CIA inflamed him and provided him with weapons, because the US is planning to declare war on Las Vegas.

curious2 says

bob2356 says

anonymous says

Well as we see now from curious2 more and more evidence of the helicopters likely involvement in this incident is documented. If this were an official report I would still collect police logs, but for Patnet purposes this is looking more and more like a fact. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree that you and curious george don't have the vaguest clue what the words evidence and fact means [sic].

Nominated.

PatNet users link two prominent news organizations reporting three eyewitness accounts, and another prominent news organization publishing a photo. Instead of supplying evidence of any kind, opium-addled Toxo Bob replies with yet another personal attack. (I call him opium-addled because of his admitted history with opiates and opioids, and because it sounds kinder than calling him a senile troll, though both explanations are possible and can combine.)

Bob said " I agree that you in curious George don't have the vaguest clue what the words evidence and fact means"

Listen here you sanctimonious POS - A large part of my job is to make determinations of fact. Others are entitled to rely on my fingings such that they are entered into the record and sometimes affect the lives of thousands of people, possibly including yours.

For the record I find you to be one of the most credible, rational and trustworthy people on this site - and I truly appreciate you taking the time to knock down the BS spewed by some of our usual suspects. In this case however want you to understand something… You have no fucking clue what you are talking about regarding a finding of fact Re: the presence or absence of helicopters at the shooting site.

I know you know this, and I appreciate your response just being the instinct to defend yourself – much is I am doing here. However, if you actually look at what has been presented here by curious and myself the evidence is rock solid that there was in fact a helicopter on site.

I hope everyone else enjoys the spectacle because I am deeply triggered at the moment. Long-term Bob, no hard feelings, and as soon as tomorrow (or whenever you are done getting out of your system what you have to say in response to me in this thread) you will go back to the rightful position as one of the more respected members of the site. Have a good day.

anonymous says

your response just being

...symptomatic of toxoplasma gondii infection, which induces self-destructive behavior in both mice and men. Much of Bob's biography, including his reckless driving and injuries, and his pointless pugnacity all over PatNet, appear to result from it.

Your kind charity towards Bob does you credit, but will do him no good. You appreciate his knocking down others' BS, but he can't even really tell the difference, let alone remember who's who; he's only trolling for fights.

Gangbanger video as he watches in awe the Mandelay Bay carnage. The police helicopter appears around 55 seconds.
www.youtube.com/embed/quX5HErYp_k