Patnet and censorship: Performance Art?

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Patnet and censorship: Performance Art?

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2017 Nov 14, 11:22am 36,659 views 160 comments

I wonder if @Patrick has just staged a piece of censorship Performance Art by instituting omnipotent censorship, under the guise of "moderation", and crowd-sourced mass-silencing (encouraging the use of the "uncivil" button) on patrick.net. The aforementioned scheme of blog control is so far removed from Patrick's former free-speech self that I am starting to wonder. Perhaps this is just an exercise in showing what happens when you give absolute power over some domain of life to ONE semi-random person, even one that otherwise professes to love liberty and freedom?

It is more than a little ironic (but should not be surprising to any serious student of human nature) that right-wingers appear to be every bit as eager to censor their opponents as they have recently been accusing the left-wingers of being. And by that I mean the last several years of talk about liberals and their desire for "safe spaces" on and off university campuses, calling them "special snowflakes", and so on.

Well, the right-wing has in recent days been out in force on Patnet, trying to enforce a "safe space" , free of "uncivility" and "NSFW" material, and acting like special snowflakes themselves. And boy, are these right-wing special snowflakes melting down Patnet in a volcanic eruption of censorship actions.

The famous 1960s psychological experiment known as the Stanford Prisoner Project comes to mind as an analogy of sorts. That experiment showed what happens when you give authority for random people to control other random people. What soon happened was not pretty. Read up on it if you want.

Finally, I will revisit and highlight a suggestion I have made several times this year:

What I would like to see is to have free speech, and at the same time avoid massive storms of low-quality comments. For a blog, I think that means to make threads and comments a limited commodity for all posters. Specifically, to limit the number of threads that a user can post on any given day to 1 or 2, and to limit how many comments every user can post on every thread to 10, or 10% of the total number of comments on the thread, whichever is larger.

The purpose of moderation should not be to censor certain forms of expression, but rather to make everyone's time (or space) on the proverbial soapbox a valuable commodity. That way, users are more likely to spend their posting currency wisely. Users who wastes their currency by posting low-quality drivel will lose esteem, or at the very least not be able to dominate the discussion based on volume posted only.

Think of it as rules of order, a very lightweight and blog-adapted version of Robert's rules of order. (By the way, a quite well-known now former pat-netter just mentioned Robert's rules just days ago, and is hereby recognized.)

PS: I very well understand the meta-question as to whether the impact of a blog, as measured by commercial value or informative value, or even political/propaganda value(!), is reduced when the number of threads or comments are somewhat limited. I think many people may think so, perhaps even Patrick himself. Personally, I will take quality over quantity any day.

#misc

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justme 2017 Nov 17, 3:18pm

The idea that posters must be "civil" to other users but need not be civil to anyone else is a very strange concept.

You can say that Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump are idiots, but if either of these persons create a (real or fake?) account, then you can't speak frankly about them anymore.

Goran_K 2017 Nov 17, 3:20pm

justme says

The idea that posters must be "civil" to other users but need not be civil to anyone else is a very strange concept.

You can say that Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump are idiots, but of either of these persons create a (real or fake?) account, then you can't speak frankly about them anymore.

It's not really that strange. We're trying to prevent "back and forth insults" where someone says "You're a moron" and then "No way, you're an idiot" for 20 post straight. This was what was happening before the changes and the threads would get heavy volume from 2-3 people, and everyone else would mostly bow out. There was no debate, really just people trying to tear each other down and it was turning a lot of people off.

If that person is NOT a member of the forum, then it's much harder to have the back and forth flame wars. So go ahead and make fun of Bernie or Trump all you want.

Patrick 2017 Nov 17, 3:24pm

justme says

The idea that posters must be "civil" to other users but need not be civil to anyone else is a very strange concept.

You can say that Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump are idiots, but of either of these persons create a (real or fake?) account, then you can't speak frankly about them anymore.

Yes @justme you're right that that is an unusual rule. But that's the rule.

Put another way, just don't get into flame wars with the other users.

If either the real Bernie Sanders or the real Donald Trump gets on patrick.net, I'll pay you $1000.

Goran_K 2017 Nov 17, 3:39pm

@justme

The rules are pretty simple. Not sure what you're not understanding or why you have to have weekly lessons on why the rules are the way they are.

If you read my original #Politics rules set, I didn't even want to censor personal attacks. I wanted everything to stay the same except #NSFW material. But Patrick wanted to try something different, and I agree that maybe it's time for a change to the way PatNet was say 5 years ago when ALL personal insults were just nuked.

justme, I've tried to give you and others lots of leeway. One of your crew made racial slurs, and went on a tirade that was very explicit. You've been less "aggressive" about your dislike, but it's all still very biased commentary. There are plenty of members on the forum who are able to follow the rules and not turn things personal.

But you even here, still find a way to try and turn things personal with "I don't think you have the acumen" to be a moderator. Maybe, maybe not.

But if you simply follow the rules, and don't personally insult someone (which you have done regularly), then there won't be a problem. Even "errrc" has stepped down his personal insults, maybe you should try the same.

justme 2017 Nov 17, 3:44pm

Look, Some dickweed just jailed me for uncivilty again. That was also not a personal insult, BTW, because nobody was named among the current set of users.

Goran_K 2017 Nov 17, 3:48pm

anon_61c8a says

Goran can say that he fucking hates leftists, but if I say that anyone who characterizes the proposed tax cuts as a cut for the poor is a liar or moron, it is straight to jail. Clear as day.

That was wrong of me to not clarify. I should have made clear that I hate leftism, but not the individual.

I'll try to be better in the future.

22 anonymous 2017 Nov 17, 4:38pm

Goran_K says

I'll try to be better in the future.

Should I say 'a liar, a moron, or indoctrinated?' you characterized the left as indoctrinated in another thread, so is that ok?

Goran_K 2017 Nov 17, 4:48pm

anon_61c8a says

Should I say 'a liar, a moron, or indoctrinated?' you characterized the left as indoctrinated in another thread, so is that ok?

Sure, you can say the "right is indoctrinated", just don't aim the insult at an individual.

24 mell 2017 Nov 17, 6:07pm

anon_7c0c9 says

Patrick, you've created so much rage here that I think it's time you said something about it. Do you think it's better now? I think it's a toilet now.

I don't see many people raging, only a select few. The same ones. It's just one of many forums. Maybe ask Patrick to create a Politics2 topic and make JustMe moderator and see how he fares. There are so many things to discuss, why rage on in this thread just because one person you don't like became a moderator and is following the rule of no personal attacks? Don't get hung up on one person or rule (which is not that hard to follow btw.)

25 mell 2017 Nov 17, 6:18pm

anon_7c0c9 says

mell says
I don't see many people raging, only a select few. The same ones. It's just one of many forums. Maybe ask Patrick to create a Politics2 topic and make JustMe moderator and see how he fares. There are so many things to discuss, why rage on in this thread just because one person you don't like became a moderator and is following the rule of no personal attacks? Don't get hung up on one person or rule (which is not that hard to follow btw.)

Take one look at the jail and tell me this hasn't become an embarrassment.

Took a quick look, can't go through many, but noticed that 4,9.10 seemed fine to me. There should be a way to bring them back.

26 anonymous 2017 Nov 17, 6:40pm

Just go read the jail thread. It's the new best of patnet.

Goran_K 2017 Nov 17, 6:40pm

anon_7c0c9 says

Its a pity for the last 70 odd years under American leadership, the world has been a peaceful and prosperous place. Now thanks to Trump, he has hastened the decline of America and gladly handed over the reins to Russia and China. The worst president ever.

^^^ Deleted by Goran to enforce the site's political agenda ^^^

Just another alt right echo chamber censored to prevent people from disagreeing.

Uh I didn’t delete that comment. You do know that uncivil is available to everyone. If I had the ability I would actually unjail that comment and a few others.

I only delete comments where it’s becoming a back and forth off topic personal battle. Even then I try to be very judicious about it.

28 anonymous 2017 Nov 17, 6:41pm

anon_61c8a says

Just go read the jail thread. It's the new best of patnet.

Yup this.

29 mell 2017 Nov 17, 6:49pm

Goran_K says

anon_7c0c9 says
Its a pity for the last 70 odd years under American leadership, the world has been a peaceful and prosperous place. Now thanks to Trump, he has hastened the decline of America and gladly handed over the reins to Russia and China. The worst president ever.

^^^ Deleted by Goran to enforce the site's political agenda ^^^

Just another alt right echo chamber censored to prevent people from disagreeing.

Uh I didn’t delete that comment. You do know that uncivil is available to everyone. If I had the ability I would actually unjail that comment and a few others.

I only delete comments where it’s becoming a back and forth off topic personal battle. Even then I try to be very judicious about it.

Ah that explains. Thought the comment was ok. Then it's not Goran's issue.

30 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 7:36am

The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank. @patrick if this is your intention just tell us now and we will stop fighting for patnet. If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank then Goran is a perfect moderator. Is that your intentions?

Goran_K 2017 Nov 18, 7:39am

anon_13ce6 says

The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank. @patrick if this is your intention just tell us now and we will stop fighting for patnet. If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank then Goran is a perfect moderator. Is that your intentions?

I encourage you to keep "fighting". Bring out the ideas of the left and show them for their real value. If the value of leftism is so important, you should have no problem presenting and debating leftism on PatNet without resorting to personal insults.

Get out there and fight! (but keep the personal attacks minimal)

32 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 7:44am

anon_13ce6 says

If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank

regurgitation tank, maybe. It's a safe space for cud.

33 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 7:45am

mell says

anon_7c0c9 says
Patrick, you've created so much rage here that I think it's time you said something about it. Do you think it's better now? I think it's a toilet now.

I don't see many people raging, only a select few. The same ones. It's just one of many forums. Maybe ask Patrick to create a Politics2 topic and make JustMe moderator and see how he fares. There are so many things to discuss, why rage on in this thread just because one person you don't like became a moderator and is following the rule of no personal attacks? Don't get hung up on one person or rule (which is not that hard to follow btw.)

Maybe it’s your own love of Republicans and disdain of Democrats that has you seeing this with such bias. Goran treats people who aren’t rabid right wingers way differently than he does those that he views as being on his team. It’s plain as day to anyone with a brain who doesn’t participate in the silly partisanship

34 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 7:49am

anon_13ce6 says

The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank. @patrick if this is your intention just tell us now and we will stop fighting for patnet. If you are planning to remake patnet into a right wing think tank then Goran is a perfect moderator. Is that your intentions?

Right wing think tank lol lol lol lol lmao lmao lol

Where they all whine and cry about how some 120lb dweeb at Berkeley is keeping them from sharing their ideas and restricting their free Speech, and then never ever present any unique ideas?

35 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 8:05am

Goran_K says

I encourage you to keep "fighting". Bring out the ideas of the left and show them for their real value. If the value of leftism is so important, you should have no problem presenting and debating leftism on PatNet without resorting to personal insults.

I encourage you to follow the rules and not take posts off topic. I am specifically referring to where you said

"To leftists ... I fucking hate these people."

What exactly did your comment have to do with China, the OP? Lead by example, Goran, or tell Patrick you resign because you are unfit for the job.

FortWayne 2017 Nov 18, 8:07am

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

Poobah Pat oppresses me all the time.

It is the price of FREE!dom.

You are the forums favorite poster AF.

37 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 8:12am

errc says

Maybe it’s your own love of Republicans and disdain of Democrats that has you seeing this with such bias. Goran treats people who aren’t rabid right wingers way differently than he does those that he views as being on his team. It’s plain as day to anyone with a brain who doesn’t participate in the silly partisanship

errc says

Right wing think tank lol lol lol lol lmao lmao lol

Where they all whine and cry about how some 120lb dweeb at Berkeley is keeping them from sharing their ideas and restricting their free Speech, and then never ever present any unique ideas?

I know, right?

Kept hearing how the left was trying to do that, turns out it was the right. What a bunch of disingenuous trumpcuck fucks. With skin as thin as Trumps skin.

Goran_K 2017 Nov 18, 8:28am

anon_13ce6 says

I encourage you to follow the rules and not take posts off topic. I am specifically referring to where you said

"To leftists ... I fucking hate these people."

What exactly did your comment have to do with China, the OP? Lead by example, Goran, or tell Patrick you resign because you are unfit for the job.

Just a quick perusal of your post history shows...

About 50-60% of your post are complaints about moderation or trying to determine the limits of "uncivil".
About 10% actual real content that is not "tinged" with personal attacks.
The rest of your post are either about "Dan" or "ironman" or myself.

So perhaps if you want a better community, one with the type of quality content you seek, maybe you should look in the mirror and figure out what you can do to personally improve the communities quality first. Just a suggestion!

Onvacation 2017 Nov 18, 8:38am

anon_13ce6 says

The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank.

BS. Your opinion is welcome.
There has never been a push to ban anyone but Ironman and TPB as far as I can remember.

Onvacation 2017 Nov 18, 8:41am

Onvacation says

anon_13ce6 says
The performance being done is that the right is trying to drive away the left so that patnet can become a right wing think tank.

BS. Your opinion is welcome.
There has never been a push to ban anyone but Ironman and TPB as far as I can remember.

Or maybe you want Patnet to be a left wing echo chamber?

41 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 8:42am

Goran_K says

So perhaps if you want a better community, one with the type of quality content you seek, maybe you should look in the mirror and figure out what you can do to personally improve the communities quality first. Just a suggestion!

I have and I'm doing it. I am fighting for patnet to not become just another right wing think tank. You should have no more power over me than I have over you. You shouldn't be using your power lopsidedly. If @patrick can't see that you are posting off topic with comments that are inflammatory then maybe it is time to let patnet go to the dark side. I don't think a moderator should be allowed to exhibit such characteristics.

Goran_K 2017 Nov 18, 8:50am

anon_13ce6 says

I have and I'm doing it.

Prove it. I know you CAN do it, but are you doing it? I'll wait and see. Lots of interesting topics out there. Iron sharpening iron.

43 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 9:05am

Onvacation says

Actually, Ironman was number one liked

as he should be in this place and deservedly so.

44 Blurtman 2017 Nov 18, 9:09am

justme says

I wonder if @Patrick has just staged a piece of censorship Performance Art by instituting omnipotent censorship, under the guise of "moderation", and crowd-sourced mass-silencing (encouraging the use of the "uncivil" button) on patrick.net.

Yes, I posted a similar idea a while ago - an attempt by Patrick to show how easy it is to get people to acquiesce and even become partisan goons. Even if that was not the intent, it certainly has delivered the above.

45 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 9:19am

Onvacation says

Yeah. We remember what happened to roberto, logan, and gary.

No I don't, care to remind me? Did that piece of shit Ironman run them off. That guy was the ultimate looser. Glad he isn't here anymore.

46 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 9:28am

Goran_K says

See the thing is, as a libertarian, I invite all trans-identities to come and enjoy PatNet.

I see is that why you said this?

Goran_K says

Transgenderism, transracial, pretty much most trans anything is just misdiagnosed mental illness.

So you want me to come back so you can make uncivil posts to my face rather than to me anonymously?

47 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 9:30am

Blurtman says

justme says
I wonder if @Patrick has just staged a piece of censorship Performance Art by instituting omnipotent censorship, under the guise of "moderation", and crowd-sourced mass-silencing (encouraging the use of the "uncivil" button) on patrick.net.

Yes, I posted a similar idea a while ago - an attempt by Patrick to show how easy it is to get people to acquiesce and even become partisan goons. Even if that was not the intent, it certainly has delivered the above.

Reminds me of the Democrat who lost the primaries in NY, so ran as a Republican and won!

Goes to show how partisan and easily manipulated Republicans are. It’s pathetically sad

48 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 9:31am

@Goran_K

Are you bi-polar?

49 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 9:57am

The frog has driven the not right wing nuts underground double anonymous.

Patrick 2017 Nov 18, 10:00am

Working on all that today!

51 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 10:04am

errc says

Let’s Make Patnet Great Again

Thank you for fighting the good fight.

Onvacation 2017 Nov 18, 10:12am

anon_13ce6 says

Goran_K says
Transgenderism, transracial, pretty much most trans anything is just misdiagnosed mental illness.

So you want me to come back so you can make uncivil posts to my face rather than to me anonymously?

Are you transgender or transracist?

Onvacation 2017 Nov 18, 10:22am

anon_13ce6 says

I don't like to fuck goats

Good to know.
Are my children safe around you?

54 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 10:34am

Patrick says

Working on all that today!

Your “moderator “ goron is lying again. He said everyone has a “mark as uncivil “ button. I don’t have one @Patrick

55 anonymous 2017 Nov 18, 10:38am

Onvacation says

anon_13ce6 says
I don't like to fuck goats

Good to know.
Are my children safe around you?

Depends on what you mean by safe and how old they are. I'm not a sick fuck like Roy Moore, I don't go to the local mall looking for 14 year olds.

If your child is over 30 then it depends on your definition of safe.

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