patrick.net

Excerpt: “It’s often either vocational training or liberal arts,” Gallagher said. “But if you look at what employers want, it’s both, and I think that’s often lost in the dialogue today.”

First of all ... what dialogue?

If anything, most white collar workers know that they use less that 10% of what they'd learned in college. This is probably the biggest open secret out there. It's alleged career suicide for white collar types to say that college is useless so they use terms like 'synergy', 'team building', and other feel good philosophies to justify their mediocre college educations, and yes, this includes liberal arts at places like Brown or Dartmouth.

The key is that white collar recruiters expect that BA in 'x, y, z' from Brown to present their candidates as good "fits" for those positions.

zzyzzx says

If you must go for a worthless Liberal Arts Degree, please make sure the tax payer isn't paying for your worthless education.
I don't give a damn what year Julius Ceaser was killed. And if I did give a damn, I could just google it.

The 2 years of general education requirements is also a load of crap. Six months of GE on subjects that interest you are more than enough.
Even worse than a Liberal Arts degree is a sports major. Really? Sports major?

Rin says

If anything, most white collar workers know that they use less that 10% of what they'd learned in college. This is probably the biggest open secret out there. It's alleged career suicide for white collar types to say that college is useless so they use terms like 'synergy', 'team building', and other feel good philosophies to justify their mediocre college educations, and yes, this includes liberal arts at places like Brown or Dartmouth.

Not even 10%.

The Justinian Legal Reforms and the catastrophic disappearance of material goods around 500-600AD plays little role when I cajole companies to donate / sponsor my clients.

My job could be done by any HS Graduate, maybe not even. I'm very happy I was educated, but it did not provide Job Training.

What we need to do is limit the number of degrees. It's getting to be like the Olympics, where any half-assed thing is getting it's own field.

zzyzzx says

It's not. Welding is done by robots now.

anon_670d2 says

zzyzzx says

It's not. Welding is done by robots now.

And even if done by hand it pays peanuts.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Not even 10%.

The Justinian Legal Reforms and the catastrophic disappearance of material goods around 500-600AD plays little role when I cajole companies to donate / sponsor my clients.

My job could be done by any HS Graduate, maybe not even. I'm very happy I was educated, but it did not provide Job Training.

What we need to do is limit the number of degrees. It's getting to be like the Olympics, where any half-assed thing is getting it's own field.

1. Depends on the field. I am teaching/doing research at a large state school in area between chemistry/chemical engineering, and in specialty courses, which are more than 50%, students need basically everything (need math to get physics, physics to get chemistry, all of it to get engineering part...). Furthermore, nearly every student who is not retarded gets reasonably well-paid jobs in local petrochemical industry with very good salaries and if they land a job at a large company and do not screw up, with good job security which is unusual these days. Kind of like 50's situation. Of course, getting through BS and even more though MS and PhD studies in natural science/engineering fields is very difficult, and after all that work they get paid less that some worthless business majors, but their education is probably 50-60% relevant and they enter middle class and actually do something useful.

2. Justinian's legal reforms may be irrelevant, but a little extra knowledge is always helpful. For example, in many jobs being able to write is unnecessary, but on a few occasions when it is needed, it is kind of nice if your employee can coherently put together few sentences. Sadly, even after BS degree most can not, as instead of being taught how to write and organize thoughts coherently, literature and assorted similar departments mostly teach Social Justice Studies and inflate grades, so that dropouts from sciences/engineering would be welcome there.

3. Solution to too many degrees would be perhaps limiting government-guaranteed student loans to 5 or 10K per year, or giving those to only poor and successful students. The tuition and number of graduates would fall like a stone, to dismay of university administrators. Worthless degrees in SJW studies would also disappear.

drBu

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

And even if done by hand it pays peanuts.

Still better then working retail or food service.

Dan8267 says

There are an estimated 30 million jobs that pay at least $55,000 per year and don’t require a bachelor’s degree.

Try buying a house on 55k/yr. It's basically poverty. If you're not making six figures at this point, you are no longer in the middle class.

I believe that to be a true statement.

anon_670d2 says

It's not. Welding is done by robots now.

By human operated robots. We wouldn't want freelance robot welders wandering the streets.

WineHorror says

Dan8267 says

There are an estimated 30 million jobs that pay at least $55,000 per year and don’t require a bachelor’s degree.

Try buying a house on 55k/yr. It's basically poverty. If you're not making six figures at this point, you are no longer in the middle class.

I believe that to be a true statement.

Houses are $10K a pop in Detroit.

Strategist says

The 2 years of general education requirements is also a load of crap.

Google what it means: philistinism

I guess there hasn't been a strong enough swing yet to anti-intellectualism.

50 years ago Americans who didn't have materialistic status would still pride themselves on having high literacy and perspectives on cultures. Dignity. Kindness. That's Heart and Soul.

Strategist says

The 2 years of general education requirements is also a load of crap.

Google what it means: philistinism

I guess there hasn't been a strong enough swing yet to anti-intellectualism.

50 years ago Americans who didn't have materialistic status would still pride themselves on having high literacy and perspectives on cultures. Dignity. Kindness. That's Heart and Soul.

Wait until the oligarchs screw everybody up in the equities markets.

This will become a different world and suddenly so many people will rediscover the merits of the values of their ancestors and the dignity due to men of honor and good character.

anon_e9ed4 says

3. Solution to too many degrees would be perhaps limiting government-guaranteed student loans to 5 or 10K per year, or giving those to only poor and successful students. The tuition and number of graduates would fall like a stone, to dismay of university administrators. Worthless degrees in SJW studies would also disappear.

I think govt assistance for school should adjust based on estimated demand for the degree. Eg, art/history majors would get less financial assistance than STEM majors. Same for interest rates on the loans - let the less valuable majors pay higher rates to help subsidize the rates for high value majors.

goat says

I think govt assistance for school should adjust based on estimated demand for the degree.

Governments are notorious for botching such things as estimating future demand for something.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

goat says

I think govt assistance for school should adjust based on estimated demand for the degree.

Governments are notorious for botching such things as estimating future demand for something.

Very true. However, I don't think they need to look many years into the future for something like this. They could use the demand of current and recent years as an estimate for future demand and I think it would be pretty effective. Although, I say "estimated demand" because I think they should make an effort to identify careers that seem to be on a major up / down trend, or those whose recent demand may have been heavily affected by some ephemeral factors. But ya...I can definitely see them screwing that up pretty often.

Hm...maybe it'd be better to let the market decide. Maybe there could be some way to let investors invest in the loans and aid the govt gives out, in some way incentivising investors to allocate the govt capital efficiently. Like, maybe the govt could sell bonds by major. Eg, "2020 Art Major 5y" & "2029 CS Major 10y" etc...

The market would probably allocate the funds pretty well.

Damn, now that I think about it, with all these new crowdfunding / p2p lending companies that let you invest in everything from small loans to real estate (RealtyShares, Lending Club etc...) they should do something similar for college money.

They should not pay for gender studies, that’s not education. It’s one way road to stupidville.

learning is vital for the general population and in school or universities due to its made a human can be expertise full and successful Dean Ambrose Jacket

zzyzzx says

If this is about college, then it is wrong. Foreigners (most of them) pay oversized out-of-state tuition and thus subsidize American students.

drB6 says

If this is about college, then it is wrong. Foreigners (most of them) pay oversized out-of-state tuition and thus subsidize American students.

There are foreigners who pay to go to college and then there are foreigners who get paid to go to college. The latter would be illegal aliens in California.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

who get paid to go to college

They do not pay even "oversized" in-state tuition?

drB6 says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

who get paid to go to college

They do not pay even "oversized" in-state tuition?

They are considered "residents" and they get financial help from the state. Basically a polar opposite of the treatment other, legal, foreighners get.

Dan8267 says

There are an estimated 30 million jobs that pay at least $55,000 per year and don’t require a bachelor’s degree.

Try buying a house on 55k/yr. It's basically poverty. If you're not making six figures at this point, you are no longer in the middle class.

This is from June of last year, but still current enough. Not really poverty outside of the overpriced areas.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/29/what-the-median-home-price-of-200000-will-get-you-across-the-us.html

zzyzzx says

Sadly, my kids have a bunch of friends who did just that, actually spent even more.

Idiots!

US need Professors. Not retarded idiots posing as Professors.

zzyzzx says

Liberals have made sure Illegal Aliens do those Trades, while they tell us "They are doing jobs nobody wants!"


What they don't tell you, those Jobs are Paying Jose Ramirez about $500 to $800 a day. So they can come up with the money to give them Shit stirring Agitating Jew bastard Immigration Lawyers, to chain migrate the rest of their family. Now I KNOW You didn't think those Cock Suckers work for free.

Don't be fooled by the Lying Left, everything is about gaming the system for them, to make more money. Those Illegal aliens are a fucking gold mine.

Tim Aurora says

Depend where you live. In Bay Area you are poor. In Rural Alabama , 55K is kings salary.

WineHorror says

Try buying a house on 55k/yr. It's basically poverty. If you're not making six figures at this point, you are no longer in the middle class.

Fifty five grand is decent money in the Rust Belt as well.

anonymous says

Of course, getting through BS and even more though MS and PhD studies in natural science/engineering fields is very difficult, and after all that work they get paid less that some worthless business majors, but their education is probably 50-60% relevant and they enter middle class and actually do something useful.

These educations prepare ppl for "stable" careers as postdocs, paying in the 40s. That's where having specialized knowledge helps in publishing papers. Otherwise, much can simply be learned on the job in the private sector.

If anything, what higher education has proven is that the boom/bust cycle of tech hiring in the private sector makes those careers unstable over the long term. Think about all those Kodak, DuPont, DEC, etc professionals who're considered too old for the current hiring sprees. If we didn't encourage everyone to flood the gates of STEM, chances are, we could have transitioned a lot of the old guard into newer positions in technology.

A person should be looking for careers in either the Patent office, National Laboratory system, or some other DoD/DoE venue where it's possible to retain a long term career. Otherwise, become a doctor or a physician assistant.

d6rB says

zzyzzx says

If this is about college, then it is wrong. Foreigners (most of them) pay oversized out-of-state tuition and thus subsidize American students.

They forgot the part where the guy stands up to throw the other one (me) out the window and I pick him up by the scruff of his neck and beat the living shit out of him.

Rin says

These educations prepare ppl for "stable" careers as postdocs, paying in the 40s.

Not so sure, all of my students are getting well-paid jobs in oil industry or commodity chemicals production. Biology degrees get people into 15-yr postdocs from what I see.
Having said that, most friends of mine who went into pharma have been fired at least once by now (ca. 15 years into their careers).

Foreigners (most of them) pay oversized out-of-state tuition and thus subsidize American students.

Illegals get "in state" tuition in many States.

Strategist says

If you must go for a worthless Liberal Arts Degree, please make sure the tax payer isn't paying for your worthless education.
I don't give a damn what year Julius Ceaser was killed. And if I did give a damn, I could just google it.

Julius Caesar is a Dead White Man™, so the current crop of students isn't learning about him at all. That's too bad, actually, because Caesar was a pivotal figure in the development of Europe. Instead, the liberal arts classes focus on women, LGBTQXYZs, and/or people with high amount of skin pigmentation, which aren't exactly indications of historical significance.

Think I'm kidding about Dead White Men? Type "American inventors" into your google search and see what pops out in the pictures at the top of the page. I get 13 across my page. 2 Dead White Men, 2 women (both with high levels of pigmentation) and 9 (yes, NINE) men with high levels of pigmentation. Check out Lonnie Johnson (listed right there with Edison and Bell); he invented the Super Soaker. I mean, how could you have a pool party without Super Soakers!

You mean in the HMH textbook, they dedicate more paragraphs to an apocryphal figure, Betsy Ross, than to the biography of George Washington?

(Seriously, we know Ross had a contract, but there's no primary sources that his daughter Betsy designed and/or created it).

HonkpilledMaster says

You mean in the HMH textbook, they dedicate more paragraphs to an apocryphal figure, Betsy Ross, than to the biography of George Washington?

(Seriously, we know Ross had a contract, but there's no primary sources that his daughter Betsy designed and/or created it).

Betsy Ross is in trouble now, too. Don't you know that that flag is racist? (At least when Trump or Trump supporters are flying it; it's OK that the Obama inauguration had two of them flying right behind him.)

d6rB says

Not so sure, all of my students are getting well-paid jobs in oil industry or commodity chemicals production.

You need to talk to members of other generations, not just the current one.

I was an infant/toddler during the oil patch bust of the early 80s.

My father and many of his former colleagues, who had related jobs in the energy sector, were scrambling nation-wide, for any place which would take 'em. That's circa the time when hi-tech took off in Massachusetts and those in the Oil Patch, who had any physics a/o computational training, were able to find entry level work in MA but were forced to carry a mortgage or two in Houston or Dallas while renting in the northeast. A lot of them left the petrochemical sector forever, as there weren't equivalent jobs in that sector, until the next oil boom of the 2000s.

I suspect that in a short while, you may start to see the same phenomena with your crop of students. This has happened before and will probably happen again.

d6rB says

Having said that, most friends of mine who went into pharma have been fired at least once by now

Even in MA, pharma which was a stalwart since the 80s, is now finally seeing its first generational wave of layoffs and offshoring. A lot of that is due to the notion that the age of a blockbluster pipeline of drugs is over and that incremental progress doesn't justify extensive headcount.

In contrast, most nurses, PAs, doctors, etc, are still employed regardless of boom/bust a/o financing cycles.

If we try to bring back Tech Schools, it will be claimed that it's RACIST to shunt minorities into Tech Schools and "prevent" them from having a Liberal Brainwashing.