patrick.net

In general, I do not understand what the hell is US doing in Syria anyway, what is motivation/profit. Just arm Kurds and let them kick everyone's ass. They are not Islamic, and appear to be the only side in this conflict that is sensible.

I agree.

But given this narrative about the White Helmets, assuming all chem use was Assad, and the wild idea that the FSB used toxic chems a second time after the fall out from the first time, I find to be difficult to believe.

I mean it's like handing the US/UK/Israel/Saudi Arabia valid excuses on a silver platter with a card attached that says "Please bomb me, here is your good reason." Especially two events within days of Trump announcing a partial draw down of US forces.

Here's a possibility: Iran did it (or ordered their proxies to use captured Chems). They have every motive to keep Assad and the Russians fighting with the West and Arabs and Turkey. And if the Americans are "mean" to Assad, then Iran "just needs to reopen nuclear weapons programs in self-defense" since Obama already handed over the Cash.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Story doesn't make sense. We have to believe a long time Family of Dictators and the FSB and Putin are dumb silly bastards, with no ability to think of consequences. Very unlikely. There's also no way they don't know the US and UK are desperate for any excuse for sanctions and anti-Assad bombings.

It does look stupid, but then again quality of KGB and GRU has gone downhill since Soviet times, when they were professionals, perhaps best in world.

Poisoning does not make sense also from UK viewpoint - it is easy to find reason for sanctions against Russia, just look at finances of any Putin-connected oligarch, who keeps money in West, and probably does not pay taxes/launders money etc, or talk to Ukrainians - they have multiple Russian servicemen in custody proving Russian involvement there, or Crimea occupation, or carpetbombings in Syria etc. Poisoning was sloppy with emergency personnel also poisoned.

This does not make sense from any viewpoint and I do not know what to think. I would guess the culprits are Russians, but I am not 100% sure these are directly state-controlled Russians. Then again, mafia-bombings in Russia in 1990's were carried out with minimal collateral damage, so this does not really fit their style as well.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

ordered their proxies to use captured Chems

Possible, and chlorine is widely used for drinking-water treatment, so no need to capture. Every big city will have some of it. Which actually increases likeliness that some small faction can get hold of chlorine and use it.

drB6 says

Possible, and chlorine is widely used for drinking-water treatment, so no need to capture.

Any chance the chlorine was released when a storage depot was bombed and it leaked into the air?

That was a story line used during the last chemical attack, that a rebel held chemical weapons depot was hit and the poison gas escaped and killed the locals.

Sniper says

storage depot was bombed and it leaked into the air?

Very possible.

drB6 says

Poisoning does not make sense also from UK viewpoint - it is easy to find reason for sanctions against Russia, just look at finances of any Putin-connected oligarch, who keeps money in West, and probably does not pay taxes/launders money etc, or talk to Ukrainians - they have multiple Russian servicemen in custody proving Russian involvement there, or Crimea occupation, or carpetbombings in Syria etc. Poisoning was sloppy with emergency personnel also poisoned.

Okay, can't resist:

Or a London or DC-connected oligarch, who keeps their money in Caribbean and Jersey Trust accounts, and probably pays no taxes... IE Bezos, Mitt Romney, etc. Who also try to undermine the elected US Government at every turn using their Media Control and Political Influence and NGOs like the Atlantic Council. Also Carlos Slim, Vincente Fuchs, etc.

Oh, Tony Blair, who acts like Mr. Democracy but was on the payroll of Kazakstan for millions as a political adviser.

Well, I'm not a fan of Western Ukrainians for their dedicated love of Nazis and frankly, if you coup the President, you can't complain the region of the country that supported him the most decided to declare independence from the coup regime. There's no way Russia is going to let Ukraine join NATO without consequence, just like there's no way we'd ever let Mexico join the Shanghai Cooperation Organization or Warsaw Pact (if it still existed). If Obregon tried to do so, the CIA would have an impeachable scandal or outright coup in action in no time, and if that didn't do it, there would be at least a low-level insurgency with Blackwater Operatives "advising the democratic rebels against the Obregon regime."

Interestingly, leader of so-called Donetsk peoples' republic was known in his younger days for being a Nazi, and there was a whole unit of Hitler-glorifying individuals in service of Donetsk peoples republic (Anton Raevskii, Milchakov, and many others; Dugin supports the rebels). Goose-stepping idiots can be equally found on both sides of that conflict.

With respect to Western oligarchs, I do not think they will soil their hands with that kind of stuff. It is much better to buy off a few politicians for few million $ through legal channels, which is a pittance. Remember how Tea party USA was bought off and Ron Paul redistricted out, as he apparently could not be purchased.

drB6 says

Interestingly, leader of so-called Donetsk peoples' republic was known in his younger days for being a Nazi, and there was a whole unit of Hitler-glorifying individuals in service of Donetsk peoples republic (Anton Raevskii, Milchakov, and many others; Dugin supports the rebels). Goose-stepping idiots can be equally found on both sides of that conflict.

Not at all equally. To Western Ukrainians, Nazis almost liberated them (in reality, stupid Ukrops would have been first to the gas chambers to free up land for the pure Volk). The Ukrainians have battalions, plural, of Nazi Volunteers covered in Nazi tattoos. They openly celebrate Einsatzgruppen and 14th SS Unit Veterans and even rebury them in Ukrainian Churches from Canada:
www.youtube.com/embed/55LoMZeJlSQ

(This video is from BEFORE the coup)

If you dress as a Nazi in Russia, you will probably get the shit kicked out of you within minutes. I'm sure there's "Edgy" kids in Russia who wear Nazi Gear and take a pic on the internet, but they dare not step outside the house like that.

WW2 Veterans are accosted in Ukraine. They fought for the Wrong Side - the Allied Side.


www.youtube.com/embed/dtOmdA5SCiU

Supporting Ukrainian Neo-Nazis and Banderites (who were also fascist, did NOT believe in Democracy but a cadre of Maximum Leaders) shows the depths to which neoliberals will go to advance their agenda, which makes them extremists.

In any case, more evidence that old Samuel Huntington was right. He predicted this decades ago in his book, "Clash of Civilizations", noting that Ukraine is a cleft country.

Uniate Catholics vs. Russian Orthodox.
Ukrainian Speaking vs. Russian Speaking.
Nazi Supporting vs. Allied Supporting.

Finally, Eastern European old chicks, PLEASE STOP WITH THE RED HAIR.

It only makes you look 30 years older.

drB6 says

Revenge for giving out secrets and warning to future possible defectors.

Again, why trade him just to kill him years later? Doesn't make sense.

Here is a reasonable article about Russian Nazi involvement in conflict: http://newslanc.com/tsukerman-russian-nazi-volunteers-in-donbas/ - Hero of Novorossiya Milchakov is a card carrying Nazi.

There are Nazis in Ukraine (like nearly everywhere else), but most of what you hear about is propaganda. I have been in that country a few times (before the conflict), and it looked and felt like in poor E. European country, and not like in Germany 1933, which is what Russian propaganda tries to portray. Ukrainians were much less hostile towards foreigners than people in Russia proper. Canadian Ukrainians I know nothing about and they might be anti-Russian to the point of being genocidal due to history (Holodomor).

Video #2 that you link is very interesting. Speaker demands that people remove so-called Georgy ribbons. Interestingly, these ribbons were used by Russian Nazi collaborators (Vlasov and Co), and are now widely used in Russia and pro-Russian forces in Ukraine. The last fact makes Ukrainians hostile to the wearers of these ribbons. So, we can say that now Russians officially glorify Nazi collaborator Vlasov with their ribbons.

WRT to hair, the worst is when they use blue on hair...imagine a 60-yr old fat Slavic woman with blue hair who thinks she is still attractive.

drB6 says

or Crimea occupation

Missed this. There is no Crimean occupation. It's 90% Ethnic Russian, voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine several times in the 90s and 2000s, and was forcibly inserted into Ukraine by the former Chief of Ukrainian SSR, Krushchev. Also consistent voters for pro-Russian parties by a far bigger margin than California goes for Democrats. This time, it took. No way Russia is letting Ukraine get an unsinkable aircraft carrier, either.

If there was any kind of serious resistance in Crimea to being part of Russia again (as it was for centuries until Kruschev unilaterally attached it to Ukraine, probably for spoil distribution of beach front dachas to loyal supporters) it's all you'd hear about. The only resistance to Crimean secession is a handful of Mafia-affiliated Tartar clans who don't even represent 1% of the population, probably in return for a blind eye to smuggling operations in Ukraine. Ironic given the very first act of the Coup Government was to ban all languages, including Tartar, other than Ukrainian - a language only used for everyday purposes in the Western Quarter of Ukraine.

Again, Cleft Country. Split it up.

Give it up, brother, nobody believes this stale Russian propaganda shit anymore. There is no"Nazis" in Ukraine. The last real one left in 1944.

The only people "supporting Nazis" there are the provocateurs hired by Russians to provide the desired picture for Russian TV. In fact, the "WWII veterans" are also fake: these guys are obviously in their 70s whereas real people who could have fought in WWII should be least 90 y.o. now (if they were conscripted at 16y.o. in 1945, LOL). Nobody in that video looks 90. Heck, not even 80. And for a good reason: there are practically no surviving WWII veterans left there and the very few that still alive can't really run around marching and fist-fighting with "Nazis" - they are bedridden and senile. The life expectancy for males there is 66.3, BTW. Tell me again about hordes of 90-100 y.o. "WWII veterans", ROTFLMAO.

So it's not working for justification of Russian agression against neighboring country, knock it off.

drB6 says

Video #2 that you link is very interesting. Speaker demands that people remove so-called Georgy ribbons. Interestingly, these ribbons were used by Russian Nazi collaborators (Vlasov and Co), and are now widely used in Russia and pro-Russian forces in Ukraine. The last fact makes Ukrainians hostile to the wearers of these ribbons. So, we can say that now Russians officially glorify Nazi collaborator Vlasov with their ribbons.

You realize that the Ribbon of Saint George IS the Russian WW2 Victory Ribbon, yes?

I mean literally, that's what Russians wear on May 9th, the day of Victory over the Nazis. It's almost like the Vietnam Service Ribbon, symbolizing that war, but for the Red Army in WW2.

I can't tell you how 180 degrees from reality the Saint George ribbon = Nazi symbol is. It's like saying the VSR is a symbol of Jane Fonda or the Gasden Flag shows support for a Gun Ban.

Holy shit, is WIkipedia propaganda. "St George ribbon no significance during USSR." Holy Bullshit, Batman.

The ribbon in question, with its signature orange and black stripes, has been around since the days of the Russian Empire, when it was was introduced as high military honor (The Order of St. George) under Catherine the Great. Its name comes from St. George, the patron saint of many nations, including Russia, whose biggest claim to fame is (according to myth) killing a dragon. In reality, George was born in what is now part of Turkey in the third century A.D., and served as a soldier in the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned, tortured and eventually beheaded for protesting against Rome's treatment of Christians.

While the Order of St. George itself ended with the Russian Revolution, over the years, the orange and black stripes, said to represent gunpowder and fire, became associated with Russian military valor. The stripes became a true national symbol after World War II, when they adorned many of the highest honors given out by the Soviet state. In 1992, the Order of St. George was reinstated in a moment of post-Soviet nationalist pride, and in 2005, on the 60th anniversary of Victory Day, the ribbon was handed out on the streets in Russia, bringing the symbol back to the forefront of many citizens' minds. Every year on Victory Day (May 9) they reappear.

The ribbon has been spotted repeatedly on pro-Russian separatists since Ukraine's crisis began – as the Associated Press put it, it's become a "ubiquitous" sight as protests have progressed in places like Crimea, Donetsk and Odessa – and in Russia's State Duma, politicians have taken to pinning the ribbons to their lapels as a sign of support. The ribbon hasn't always been met with a positive response: The Christian Science Monitor's Anna Kordunsky reports that some Ukrainians had begun calling it the “Colorado ribbon,” named after a bug that infests potato fields and has similar coloring. "At least one Maidan activist has made a show of burning three ribbons in the eternal flame in Odessa," Kordunksy wrote last month.

To those who wear the ribbon, it's a sign of Russia's proud military history, and in particular the grueling victory over Nazi Germany and the millions of Soviet troops who died in that effort, many of them Ukrainians. But for those angered by the ribbons, they're a sign of something else: Russian empire and Soviet domination. That's a history many believe President Vladimir Putin would like to return to.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/05/05/this-is-the-ribbon-that-ukrainian-nationalists-want-outlawed/?utm_term=.5d6edc6e72d8

"Only" a million of these were handed out, which were basically the Soviet Equivalent of Bronze and Silver Stars for NCOs' bravery in combat.


Sheesh.

"It's all a Putin Invention!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_Soviet_Union

"Only" ~15M of these handed out by the USSR for participation in the Great Patriotic War (aka WW2).

Man, Ukrops propaganda sucks. They hate the Saint George Ribbon because it marked the defeat of their big brother Hitler .

drB6 says

Here is a reasonable article about Russian Nazi involvement in conflict: http://newslanc.com/tsukerman-russian-nazi-volunteers-in-donbas/ - Hero of Novorossiya Milchakov is a card carrying Nazi.

This is basically Field's blog.

Fields also spends his fortune to publish this anti-Orban pro-EUrocrat rag:
https://budapestbeacon.com

He's clearly an Atlanticist/Neoliberal as are the peeps that write for his personal mag.

This "Combat Brotherhood" maybe ultra nationalist, but they sure as shit ain't Nazis. Given they're posing under a WW2 Soviet Victory Flag.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

They hate the Saint George Ribbon because it marked the defeat of their big brother Hitler .

Or because Russians attacked Ukraine under similar colors.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

This "Combat Brotherhood" maybe ultra nationalist, but they sure as shit ain't Nazis. Given they're posing under a WW2 Soviet Victory Flag.

What about Milchakov and his Adolf tattoos and parading with a Nazi flag, who was leader in Novorossiya army? It is possible somehow (I have seen it many times) for a Russian to glorify Adolf and Stalin at the same time.



TwoScoopsPlissken says

Fields also spends his fortune to publish this anti-Orban pro-EUrocrat rag:
https://budapestbeacon.com

He's clearly an Atlanticist/Neoliberal as are the peeps that write for his personal mag.

Does not necessarily means that he is wrong with everything. The pictures he gives there are all over Russian internet.

WRT to Georgian ribbon - the Soviet version has (slightly) different color, and, I believe was called "guards ribbon", while Vlasov/WWI version was called Georgian ribbon, which is what the current version is called.

https://nashdom.us/home/sootechestvenniki/compatriots/georgievskaja-lentochka---znak-soldat-roa-vlasova

Edit: might need to somehow warn people that last picture her is pretty disturbing. A link would be better, but I do not know how to get it not to show up.

drB6 says

WRT to Georgian ribbon - the Soviet version has (slightly) different color, and, I believe was called "guards ribbon", while Vlasov/WWI version was called Georgian ribbon, which is what the current version is called.

It's based on the Tsarist Medal. Common knowledge that Stalin dusted off some old fashioned Russian and Orthodox Patriotism during WW2.

As for that kid, there's one pic of him holding up a Nazi Battle Flag, it could be a "Look at my war spoils" pic. The raised fist is NOT a Fascist Salute.

This is a Fascist Salute:

(Note Swastika tattoo on arm not to mention Totenkopf, the death's head, another SS Symbol)

And the Wulfangel and the Black Sun are SS Images, frequently used by Euronazis to get around the Swastika ban:


And McCain with Svoboda Leader:


It's also indisputable that Bandera was funded by the Nazis, armed by the Nazis, and that 100,000s of Ukrainians served with the Einsatzgruppen and as Hiwis with the Wehrmacht. Vlasov, on the other hand, had POWs who basically had a choice between execution and fighting the Soviet Union. Big difference between eager Ukrainians (and Lithuanians) proudly volunteering for the Nazis, with the added bonus of being able to butcher their hated Polish and Jewish populations, and POWs given a stark choice of Fight or Death.

And the Euro Block Antifa said or did nothing?

Yeah we're that stupid.

drB6 says

What about Milchakov and his Adolf tattoos and parading with a Nazi flag, who was leader in Novorossiya army? It is possible somehow (I have seen it many times) for a Russian to glorify Adolf and Stalin at the same time.

I've never heard of this kid, and certainly he was no leader - I know them all - Motorola, Givi, etc. Is it possible there's a singular Nazi in Donbass? I guess, although Donbass is one helluva anti-Nazi coal mining Vatnik (Older, fonder memories of Communists, ironically more religious) town where Nazi symbolism would get your ass beaten harder than two gay guys wearing pink walking hand in hand in Lublin or Bialystok.

Hey, if Neoliberals will work with Al Qaeda, why wouldn't they work with Ukrainian Fascists?

It wasn't Russian

TwoScoopsPlissken says

And McCain with Svoboda Leader:

We get the picture of the only guy who is not a "actor from a burned theatre" but a real political figure and the dude can't evern fucking learn how to properly give the salute? I mean, a person has only two hands, how hard is it to use the proper one?

This is how you do it properly:



Or this:



Or this:



This guy doing it wrong again, stupid fucking nazi:



Jeebuz-effing-crust, is it so hard to remember which is the proper hand?

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Jeebuz-effing-crust, is it so hard to remember which is the proper hand?

All pretty accurate, except for Netanyahu.

Svoboda totally isn't a quasi-fascist party and never was, LOL