Oregon public university President retires-to a $76,000+ a month pension-yes 76k a month!!!!!!!!!
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2018 Apr 15, 5:47am 12,234 views 61 comments
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20
bob2356
2018 Apr 15, 2:49pm
theoakman says
PERS has been screwed up for 30 years. I lived in Oregon and know all about it. It is far from front page news in the sunday NY Times.
Yes they need to redo PERS rules. Or better simply pay into an IRA and forget about managing pension funds. There is always too much temptation for the government to under fund or dip into them. Of course there isn't any reason IRA's can't be dipped into also. It's been done in Europe. The government requires fund managers to invest some percentage of the IRA into government bonds. It will happen in the US too when things get tight enough.
Earning a high salary as a university president should not be an issue. However, the pension calculated off that salary needs to have it's own rules. They use the formula for middle class americans and apply it to that and it yields incredible sums of money ad infinitum.
PERS has been screwed up for 30 years. I lived in Oregon and know all about it. It is far from front page news in the sunday NY Times.
Yes they need to redo PERS rules. Or better simply pay into an IRA and forget about managing pension funds. There is always too much temptation for the government to under fund or dip into them. Of course there isn't any reason IRA's can't be dipped into also. It's been done in Europe. The government requires fund managers to invest some percentage of the IRA into government bonds. It will happen in the US too when things get tight enough.
21
marcus
2018 Apr 15, 3:25pm
marcus
2018 Apr 15, 3:25pm
Reality says
Yeah, whatever we do, let's not be putting good minds in education or law enforcement. THey can't do anything for next quarters earnings per share there.
more production but only luring the smart minds away from the productive sector
Yeah, whatever we do, let's not be putting good minds in education or law enforcement. THey can't do anything for next quarters earnings per share there.
22
marcus
2018 Apr 15, 3:31pm
marcus
2018 Apr 15, 3:31pm
theoakman says
Yes, exactly correct on both counts. Especially this: "They use the formula for middle class americans and apply it to that"
That's a gaping flaw in the govt pension system.
Earning a high salary as a university president should not be an issue. However, the pension calculated off that salary needs to have it's own rules. They use the formula for middle class americans and apply it to that and it yields incredible sums of money ad infinitum. Pensions should be capped at 100k per year. What's more offensive is the 100 deans and vps that permeate the university.
Yes, exactly correct on both counts. Especially this: "They use the formula for middle class americans and apply it to that"
That's a gaping flaw in the govt pension system.
23
Y
2018 Apr 15, 4:32pm
Y
2018 Apr 15, 4:32pm
I would take it a step further and rip the fuckin shit outta the hands of the current overpaid pensioners.
They never deserved it to begin with.
How many people have to suffer because of libeal governmental miscalculations?
marcus says
They never deserved it to begin with.
How many people have to suffer because of libeal governmental miscalculations?
marcus says
Pensions should be capped at 100k per year.
24
Y
2018 Apr 15, 4:36pm
Y
2018 Apr 15, 4:36pm
How libbies govern...
Of course the owls are more important...
"Oregon is a blue state, but in its restive red hinterlands, tax increases are politically off limits and financial distress has been severe since 1994, when logging was curtailed to save an endangered owl. "
Of course the owls are more important...
"Oregon is a blue state, but in its restive red hinterlands, tax increases are politically off limits and financial distress has been severe since 1994, when logging was curtailed to save an endangered owl. "
25
HowdyThere
2018 Apr 15, 6:44pm
I'm sure that for the university to attract this level of talent, it was necessary to have a compensation package that included a robust pension. C type executives get options and golden parachutes and such, while public servants get gold plated pensions. It's all well deserved I'm sure. Or not?
26
mell
2018 Apr 15, 7:46pm
HowdyThere says
No, the public servant's package is payed by the taxpayer. Undeserved.
I'm sure that for the university to attract this level of talent, it was necessary to have a compensation package that included a robust pension. C type executives get options and golden parachutes and such, while public servants get gold plated pensions. It's all well deserved I'm sure. Or not?
No, the public servant's package is payed by the taxpayer. Undeserved.
27
marcus
2018 Apr 15, 11:57pm
marcus
2018 Apr 15, 11:57pm
drB6 says
I don't know. Perhaps becasue they commit themselves to service jobs and to jobs with limited upside ? Could that be it ?
And why should some, more equal people get non-social security pensions when most can only dream about it?
I don't know. Perhaps becasue they commit themselves to service jobs and to jobs with limited upside ? Could that be it ?
28
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 5:28am
BlueSardine says
Conservative states don't have underfunded government pensions? Really? Are you sure?
How many people have to suffer because of libeal governmental miscalculations?
Conservative states don't have underfunded government pensions? Really? Are you sure?
29
marcus
2018 Apr 16, 6:20am
marcus
2018 Apr 16, 6:20am
What is the typical homeowner's unfunded liability on their mortgage ?
This pension issue is a problem, but it's also propaganda becasue people don't really understand it.
This pension issue is a problem, but it's also propaganda becasue people don't really understand it.
30
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 6:41am
marcus says
High salaries and pensions for administrators do not result in better education or better law enforcement. In fact, the massive expansion of college administrators in the past couple decades has resulted in the actual teaching being left to adjunct instructors who don't get pension at all nor tenure, but paid not much more than minimum wage! Public/monopoly sector economy/incentives are very different from the private/competitive sector: customers price-shop in the private/competitive sector to keep price down and quality up; if a business has high profit margin, it will attract new entrants to drive down profit margin (i.e. resulting more/better goods/services that people want, at lower cost); whereas in the public sector, when do you think funding gets raised in public school and police department? When the graduation rate is down and crime rate is up! More money spent on the administrators in those public/monopoly sectors to pay more for administrators would only attract the "smart minds" that can understand this perverse incentive mechanism therefore deliberately under-pay and under-fund actual teachers and cops on the beat, so as to result in bad results so that they can demand more funding! That's exactly what's been happening in colleges: massive expansion of administrators and administrators' pay and pensions while cutting corners on the teaching staff. The same thing in the medical industry: massive expansion of administrator to doctor ratio. This is precisely what happens in all publicly-funded/monopolistic sectors.
In public/monopolistic sectors, we need people who enjoy the type of work they do, and are relatively simple-minded when it comes to optimizing their own benefits. High pay/pension for administrators in those sectors accomplish the exact opposite, because they are not under market competitive pressure.
Reality saysmore production but only luring the smart minds away from the productive sector
Yeah, whatever we do, let's not be putting good minds in education or law enforcement. THey can't do anything for next quarters earnings per share there.
High salaries and pensions for administrators do not result in better education or better law enforcement. In fact, the massive expansion of college administrators in the past couple decades has resulted in the actual teaching being left to adjunct instructors who don't get pension at all nor tenure, but paid not much more than minimum wage! Public/monopoly sector economy/incentives are very different from the private/competitive sector: customers price-shop in the private/competitive sector to keep price down and quality up; if a business has high profit margin, it will attract new entrants to drive down profit margin (i.e. resulting more/better goods/services that people want, at lower cost); whereas in the public sector, when do you think funding gets raised in public school and police department? When the graduation rate is down and crime rate is up! More money spent on the administrators in those public/monopoly sectors to pay more for administrators would only attract the "smart minds" that can understand this perverse incentive mechanism therefore deliberately under-pay and under-fund actual teachers and cops on the beat, so as to result in bad results so that they can demand more funding! That's exactly what's been happening in colleges: massive expansion of administrators and administrators' pay and pensions while cutting corners on the teaching staff. The same thing in the medical industry: massive expansion of administrator to doctor ratio. This is precisely what happens in all publicly-funded/monopolistic sectors.
In public/monopolistic sectors, we need people who enjoy the type of work they do, and are relatively simple-minded when it comes to optimizing their own benefits. High pay/pension for administrators in those sectors accomplish the exact opposite, because they are not under market competitive pressure.
31
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 6:54am
bob2356 says
It is outrageous because these are non-profits and/or their services largely paid for by tax money (i.e. government granted monopolies). By your math, DOD having a 700B annual (public) budget, should the secretary be paid 360 million dollars a year? and a pension of $180,000,000/yr? What about the head of the social security administration or the POTUS supervising even larger annual budgets?
Private sector (serving individual customers not funded by government) executives have to compete against other private sector companies/executives; the owners of the competitive enterprise or the shareholders decide the pay, and do so at their own peril. The public/monopolistic sector OTOH is literally socking to the taxpayers. High public sector executive pay/pension also result in less resources available to pay the front-line service staff in the public sector, as they split the given pool of tax money at any given time. There is literally no justification whatsoever for high executive pay/pension in the public sector.
Running a 3 billion dollar university and hospital with a salary of 1.7 million isn't outrageous. Sorry, but it just isn't.
It is outrageous because these are non-profits and/or their services largely paid for by tax money (i.e. government granted monopolies). By your math, DOD having a 700B annual (public) budget, should the secretary be paid 360 million dollars a year? and a pension of $180,000,000/yr? What about the head of the social security administration or the POTUS supervising even larger annual budgets?
Private sector (serving individual customers not funded by government) executives have to compete against other private sector companies/executives; the owners of the competitive enterprise or the shareholders decide the pay, and do so at their own peril. The public/monopolistic sector OTOH is literally socking to the taxpayers. High public sector executive pay/pension also result in less resources available to pay the front-line service staff in the public sector, as they split the given pool of tax money at any given time. There is literally no justification whatsoever for high executive pay/pension in the public sector.
32
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 7:02am
marcus says
If a banker negotiates with himself or related party/friends/co-conspirator to set up a bloated mortgage, he'd be arrested for banking fraud.
When a home owner fails to make mortgage payment, he gets foreclosed, not robbing other people to make the payment. Are we going to foreclose on a school district or a government? Are we going to foreclose on the houses of all individual parties who signed / set up the pension funds running short of money before raising taxes on the other taxpayers? Are we going to throw them in jail if the foreclosure sale of all their personal assets can not make up for the short-fall? Perhaps we should!
What is the typical homeowner's unfunded liability on their mortgage ?
If a banker negotiates with himself or related party/friends/co-conspirator to set up a bloated mortgage, he'd be arrested for banking fraud.
When a home owner fails to make mortgage payment, he gets foreclosed, not robbing other people to make the payment. Are we going to foreclose on a school district or a government? Are we going to foreclose on the houses of all individual parties who signed / set up the pension funds running short of money before raising taxes on the other taxpayers? Are we going to throw them in jail if the foreclosure sale of all their personal assets can not make up for the short-fall? Perhaps we should!
33
marcus
2018 Apr 16, 7:20am
marcus
2018 Apr 16, 7:20am
My point was that these numbers represent future obligations.
WE all pay thousands of dollars per year in state taxes. That money goes towards all kind of salaries and other expenses. Including debt, which the liabilites are a form of.
What percentage of state expenditures goes toward unfunded pension liabilities ?
WE all pay thousands of dollars per year in state taxes. That money goes towards all kind of salaries and other expenses. Including debt, which the liabilites are a form of.
What percentage of state expenditures goes toward unfunded pension liabilities ?
34
zzyzzx
2018 Apr 16, 7:37am
zzyzzx
2018 Apr 16, 7:37am
marcus says
That's pretty much every job, everywhere.
Perhaps becasue they commit themselves to service jobs and to jobs with limited upside ? Could that be it ?
That's pretty much every job, everywhere.
35
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 8:12am
marcus says
Mortgage is a secured debt. It is funded at all time: backed by the house itself, which can be foreclosed to satisfy the loan. Otherwise, the bank wouldn't be lending the money at such low interest rate at all or for that large an amount. Pension is supposed to be funded by employees themselves, not a Ponzi scam, counting on increasing number of future workers paying into it to support previous workers, or an extortion racket counting on future raising of taxes to satisfy past pensions obligations.
The most insidious aspect of gross expansion of public sector jobs and bureaucracy via exaggerated pension promises is that: such a promise inevitably leads to major war. That's how conflicting claims on wealth eventually get settled when the pie is just not big enough to satisfy all claims on it -- a war to decide whose claims don't count. The apologists for government expansion are essentially warmongers.
My point was that these numbers represent future obligations.
WE all pay thousands of dollars per year in state taxes. That money goes towards all kind of salaries and other expenses. Including debt, which the liabilites are a form of.
What percentage of state expenditures goes toward unfunded pension liabilities ?
Mortgage is a secured debt. It is funded at all time: backed by the house itself, which can be foreclosed to satisfy the loan. Otherwise, the bank wouldn't be lending the money at such low interest rate at all or for that large an amount. Pension is supposed to be funded by employees themselves, not a Ponzi scam, counting on increasing number of future workers paying into it to support previous workers, or an extortion racket counting on future raising of taxes to satisfy past pensions obligations.
The most insidious aspect of gross expansion of public sector jobs and bureaucracy via exaggerated pension promises is that: such a promise inevitably leads to major war. That's how conflicting claims on wealth eventually get settled when the pie is just not big enough to satisfy all claims on it -- a war to decide whose claims don't count. The apologists for government expansion are essentially warmongers.
36
Goran_K
2018 Apr 16, 9:01am
Goran_K
2018 Apr 16, 9:01am
bob2356 says
"Sorry, but it just isn't" is not a real explanation.
Why is it not outrageous?
Running a 3 billion dollar university and hospital with a salary of 1.7 million isn't outrageous. Sorry, but it just isn't.
"Sorry, but it just isn't" is not a real explanation.
Why is it not outrageous?
37
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 9:43am
Reality says
According to KPMG audit from last year OHSU got 33 million in tax money out of a revenue of 3.1 billion. That is 1% of revenue. What exaclty is your defintion of largley?
Ridiculous to compare large federal agencies to autonomous public corporations. The mission and job is totally different.
It is outrageous because these are non-profits and/or their services largely paid for by tax money (i.e. government granted monopolies). By your math, DOD having a 700B annual (public) budget, should the secretary be paid 360 million dollars a year? and a pension of $180,000,000/yr? What about the head of the social security administration or the POTUS supervising even larger annual budgets?
According to KPMG audit from last year OHSU got 33 million in tax money out of a revenue of 3.1 billion. That is 1% of revenue. What exaclty is your defintion of largley?
Ridiculous to compare large federal agencies to autonomous public corporations. The mission and job is totally different.
38
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 9:47am
Goran_K says
The salary is 1/3 to 1/2 what a ceo of a similar sized private corporation would earn. For the same skills and management tasks.
Why is it outrageous? Want to provide the missing explanation since no one has so far.
"Sorry, but it just isn't" is not a real explanation.
Why is it not outrageous?
The salary is 1/3 to 1/2 what a ceo of a similar sized private corporation would earn. For the same skills and management tasks.
Why is it outrageous? Want to provide the missing explanation since no one has so far.
39
Bd6r
2018 Apr 16, 9:59am
Bd6r
2018 Apr 16, 9:59am
bob2356 says
This is supposedly a non-profit/public entity, so the goal should not be raking in as much $$$ as possible. It should be educating students without making them go broke.
bob2356 says
I do not buy this. A lot of student loan money comes from govt, and apparently is not counted in these costs.
The salary is 1/3 to 1/2 what a ceo of a similar sized private corporation would earn. For the same skills and management tasks
This is supposedly a non-profit/public entity, so the goal should not be raking in as much $$$ as possible. It should be educating students without making them go broke.
bob2356 says
According to KPMG audit from last year OHSU got 33 million in tax money out of a revenue of 3.1 billion. That is 1% of revenue.
I do not buy this. A lot of student loan money comes from govt, and apparently is not counted in these costs.
40
Bd6r
2018 Apr 16, 10:01am
Bd6r
2018 Apr 16, 10:01am
marcus says
Very difficult to find out, actually. I bet it is deliberately well-hidden/obfuscated.
What percentage of state expenditures goes toward unfunded pension liabilities ?
Very difficult to find out, actually. I bet it is deliberately well-hidden/obfuscated.
41
Bd6r
2018 Apr 16, 10:04am
Bd6r
2018 Apr 16, 10:04am
Reality says
That is the key. Univ top bureaucrats collect around them an army of sycophantic "yes-men" who say that Pres is underpaid; then when bureaucrat salaries are raised, suddenly school has not enough money; they go to state and scream for more money; state gives some, but not enough; then, with screams "state does not support education" the administration raises tuition. In private business, they would eventually go broke; here there is no such constraint.
In public/monopolistic sectors, we need people who enjoy the type of work they do, and are relatively simple-minded when it comes to optimizing their own benefits. High pay/pension for administrators in those sectors accomplish the exact opposite, because they are not under market competitive pressure.
That is the key. Univ top bureaucrats collect around them an army of sycophantic "yes-men" who say that Pres is underpaid; then when bureaucrat salaries are raised, suddenly school has not enough money; they go to state and scream for more money; state gives some, but not enough; then, with screams "state does not support education" the administration raises tuition. In private business, they would eventually go broke; here there is no such constraint.
42
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 10:12am
bob2356 says
This has to be a joke, right? Do you honestly think the school would have $3.1 billion revenue if not for government-subsidized student loans? and government-enforced monopoly on both the practice of medicine and dentistry (the field where the school specializes) and on the establishment of universities itself?
Not at all. Considering both patients (the ultimate customers of the graduates of the school) and students are heavily subsidized by government to pay for a services in an industry that is severely restricted in supply by licensing requirement, the fields of both medicine and medical schools are effective monopolies and oligopolies enforced by the government. It's classic "socializing the cost" while "privatizing the looting"! Those high administrator pays and pensions are one of the reasons why both education and medicine have become so expensive, while students take on mortgage-sized debt without a house to show for it while being taught by low-pay adjunct instructors.
According to KPMG audit from last year OHSU got 33 million in tax money out of a revenue of 3.1 billion. That is 1% of revenue. What exaclty is your defintion of largley?
This has to be a joke, right? Do you honestly think the school would have $3.1 billion revenue if not for government-subsidized student loans? and government-enforced monopoly on both the practice of medicine and dentistry (the field where the school specializes) and on the establishment of universities itself?
Ridiculous to compare large federal agencies to autonomous public corporations. The mission and job is totally different.
Not at all. Considering both patients (the ultimate customers of the graduates of the school) and students are heavily subsidized by government to pay for a services in an industry that is severely restricted in supply by licensing requirement, the fields of both medicine and medical schools are effective monopolies and oligopolies enforced by the government. It's classic "socializing the cost" while "privatizing the looting"! Those high administrator pays and pensions are one of the reasons why both education and medicine have become so expensive, while students take on mortgage-sized debt without a house to show for it while being taught by low-pay adjunct instructors.
43
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 10:18am
bob2356 says
The market place for executives with $1.7mil+ annual salary is very small in the private sector. Most SP500 top executives don't even have salaries that big. If you honestly believe those thousands (if not tens of thousands) of university and hospital executives are just as good as those SP500 executives, then they should be forced to compete against the SP500 executives in the market place, thereby driving down the pay for the SP500 executives! Instead of warehousing them in tax-payer funded institutions away from the competitive market place and artificially creating shortage of executives in the private sector.
The salary is 1/3 to 1/2 what a ceo of a similar sized private corporation would earn. For the same skills and management tasks.
Why is it outrageous? Want to provide the missing explanation since no one has so far.
The market place for executives with $1.7mil+ annual salary is very small in the private sector. Most SP500 top executives don't even have salaries that big. If you honestly believe those thousands (if not tens of thousands) of university and hospital executives are just as good as those SP500 executives, then they should be forced to compete against the SP500 executives in the market place, thereby driving down the pay for the SP500 executives! Instead of warehousing them in tax-payer funded institutions away from the competitive market place and artificially creating shortage of executives in the private sector.
44
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 10:23am
Reality says
So post the numbers. It's true because I believe it shoudl be true isn't good enough.
Reality says
I've got to assume you are totally unaware the restriction on training doctors is the amount of funding for residency programs provided by state and federal governments. Again feel free to post the numbers on how much students are supsidized any time instead of just saying its tue, it's tue.
www.youtube.com/embed/w0MyA4XKpK8
This has to be a joke, right? Do you honestly think the school would have $3.1 billion revenue if not for government-subsidized student loans? and government-enforced monopoly on both the practice of medicine and dentistry (the field where the school specializes) and on the establishment of universities itself?
So post the numbers. It's true because I believe it shoudl be true isn't good enough.
Reality says
Not at all. Considering both patients (the ultimate customers of the graduates of the school) and students are heavily subsidized by government to pay for a services in an industry that is severely restricted in supply by licensing requirement, the field of both medicine and medical schools are effective monopolies and oligopolies enforced by the government. It's classic "socializing the cost" while "privatizing the looting"!
I've got to assume you are totally unaware the restriction on training doctors is the amount of funding for residency programs provided by state and federal governments. Again feel free to post the numbers on how much students are supsidized any time instead of just saying its tue, it's tue.
www.youtube.com/embed/w0MyA4XKpK8
45
Goran_K
2018 Apr 16, 10:23am
Goran_K
2018 Apr 16, 10:23am
bob2356 says
Yes, but private corporations are beholden to share holders, and a board (elected by company share holders) that determine compensation and severance based on a projected profit or expectations of earnings.
How was this doctor's retirement compensation determined? AFAIK, this is determined by a union contract that is negotiated by the union and the college district, not by taxpayers. It seems here, the "share holders" do not have a direct say (or as direct a say) as those in the private sector.
The salary is 1/3 to 1/2 what a ceo of a similar sized private corporation would earn. For the same skills and management tasks.
Why is it outrageous? Want to provide the missing explanation since no one has so far.
Yes, but private corporations are beholden to share holders, and a board (elected by company share holders) that determine compensation and severance based on a projected profit or expectations of earnings.
How was this doctor's retirement compensation determined? AFAIK, this is determined by a union contract that is negotiated by the union and the college district, not by taxpayers. It seems here, the "share holders" do not have a direct say (or as direct a say) as those in the private sector.
46
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 10:31am
bob2356 says
It's better than the 1% number (only 1% of the college's revenue came from tax payers) that you quoted to deliberately obfuscate. Are you not aware that average medical students graduate with over $160k debt? Are you not aware that specific school gets paid by Oregon State university system via cross training programs?
bob2356 says
This is again nonsense! Just because the hospitals cry for more public funding because they waste money while limit the supply of doctors (the very purpose of founding AMA a century ago; before AMA successfully lobbied the government into restricting the supply of doctors medicine was so affordable that doctors visiting patients home to give treatment was routine). By your logic (training doctors is limited by the amount of funding for residency programs), hospitals and doctors didn't exist before there was government funding for residency programs! How dumb does a person have to be to believe in that kind of propaganda?! Do you believe schools and roads didn't exist before government funding either? How about food if in countries where government organize food production? Government involvement always result in shortage! because government is a form of monopoly. Food was just more obvious; the same thing is happening to medicine and education, only takes longer to become obvious, because people only spend a relatively smaller percentage of their life time dealing with medicine and education, compared to food procurement.
So post the numbers. It's true because I believe it shoudl be true isn't good enough.
It's better than the 1% number (only 1% of the college's revenue came from tax payers) that you quoted to deliberately obfuscate. Are you not aware that average medical students graduate with over $160k debt? Are you not aware that specific school gets paid by Oregon State university system via cross training programs?
bob2356 says
I've got to assume you are totally unaware the restriction on training doctors is the amount of funding for residency programs provided by state and federal governments.
This is again nonsense! Just because the hospitals cry for more public funding because they waste money while limit the supply of doctors (the very purpose of founding AMA a century ago; before AMA successfully lobbied the government into restricting the supply of doctors medicine was so affordable that doctors visiting patients home to give treatment was routine). By your logic (training doctors is limited by the amount of funding for residency programs), hospitals and doctors didn't exist before there was government funding for residency programs! How dumb does a person have to be to believe in that kind of propaganda?! Do you believe schools and roads didn't exist before government funding either? How about food if in countries where government organize food production? Government involvement always result in shortage! because government is a form of monopoly. Food was just more obvious; the same thing is happening to medicine and education, only takes longer to become obvious, because people only spend a relatively smaller percentage of their life time dealing with medicine and education, compared to food procurement.
47
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 10:38am
Goran_K says
How exaclty is this an explanation of why it's outragous for someone to have a 1.7 million salary running a 3 billion dollar enterprise. Public entities are beholden to the politicians who are beholden to the voters. If voters want to stick their heads in the sand and fail to hold their politicians responsible that is their choice. Oregon has public referendum. Anyone is free to put a referendum on the ballot to reform PERS, but it hasn't happened yet.
I would say the retirement was determined by the rules of PERS. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. I agree PERS rules are really screwed up. For one thing they allow outside income to be included in calculating retirements. Many things are screwed up, like CEO's getting huge amounts of money for walking away from companies they ran into the ground without the share holders having any say. So much for being beholden.
bob2356 says
The salary is 1/3 to 1/2 what a ceo of a similar sized private corporation would earn. For the same skills and management tasks.
Why is it outrageous? Want to provide the missing explanation since no one has so far.
Yes, but private corporations are beholden to share holders, and a board that determine compensation and severance based on a projected profit or expectations of earnings.
How was this doctor's retirement compensation determined? AFAIK, this is determined by a union contract that is negotiated by the union and the college district, not by taxpayers.
How exaclty is this an explanation of why it's outragous for someone to have a 1.7 million salary running a 3 billion dollar enterprise. Public entities are beholden to the politicians who are beholden to the voters. If voters want to stick their heads in the sand and fail to hold their politicians responsible that is their choice. Oregon has public referendum. Anyone is free to put a referendum on the ballot to reform PERS, but it hasn't happened yet.
I would say the retirement was determined by the rules of PERS. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. I agree PERS rules are really screwed up. For one thing they allow outside income to be included in calculating retirements. Many things are screwed up, like CEO's getting huge amounts of money for walking away from companies they ran into the ground without the share holders having any say. So much for being beholden.
48
everything
2018 Apr 16, 10:39am
everything
2018 Apr 16, 10:39am
Won't matter, pensions will need a bailout eventually, austerity will come along. Health care systems are leading cause of bankruptcy, eventually more of the insured will be opting out and leaving the country for medical care. Some corporations are already moving to self-insured and sending employees out of country now. Now, it's a question of who is going to move in closer to the U.S. to provide the services across who's border, or can they do it via ships docked in port. As is in the U.S. Iatrogenic disease (death by doctor), is already #3 cause of death, and of course people flock to Mexico for dentists now already.
49
Goran_K
2018 Apr 16, 10:44am
Goran_K
2018 Apr 16, 10:44am
bob2356 says
Yes I agree. But here it seems that there is an admission that political corruption could skew what is fair or outrageous in terms of compensation.
Public entities are beholden to the politicians who are beholden to the voters. If voters want to stick their heads in the sand and fail to hold their politicians responsible that is their choice. Oregon has public referendum. Anyone is free to put a referendum on the ballot to reform PERS, but it hasn't happened yet.
Yes I agree. But here it seems that there is an admission that political corruption could skew what is fair or outrageous in terms of compensation.
50
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 10:45am
bob2356 says
If a consumer doesn't like the executive pay or executive pension at Apple, he can buy less expensive phones from other phone makers. A taxpayer can't avoid being looted to pay for the public executives and public executive pensions even if he doesn't send his kids to the school.
Indexing public sector executive pay/pension to private sector executives is of course a nonsensical attempt to enrich the super-wealthy: very high salaries are actually very rare in the private sector, whereas in the public sector due to the monopolistic consolidated nature of the public sector there are far more supposedly "high revenue enterprises." At $10k/yr in property taxes, it only takes 100k houses in a town or city to aggregate a billion dollar "revenue"; should the vast majority of mayors be pulling million-dollar salaries and pensions too? What about the heads of the tax-collector's office in all those towns and cities? Why should heads of the assessor's office be paid less? Why should the head of the school district actually spending more than half of that money be paid less? Warehousing so many times more high-paying positions in the public sector would drive private sector executive pay even higher (supply vs. demand). The idea that public/monopolistic sector executive pay should be comparable to the private/competitive sector is utterly nonsensical and would work out to be massive subsidy to the wealthy. It's as if: if a 5000sqft home in Manhattan sold for $100million, somehow the government should offer to buy every 5000sqft home in the country for $100million each! What a huge subsidy to the already wealthy home owners that would be! If the public sector executives believe they can pull $million+ salaries in the private sector, let them go to the private sector and compete down executive pay in the private sector!
How exaclty is this an explanation of why it's outragous for someone to have a 1.7 million salary running a 3 billion dollar enterprise. Public entities are beholden to the politicians who are beholden to the voters. If voters want to stick their heads in the sand and fail to hold their politicians responsible that is their choice. Oregon has public referendum. Anyone is free to put a referendum on the ballot to reform PERS, but it hasn't happened yet.
I would say the retirement was determined by the rules of PERS. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. I agree PERS rules are really screwed up. For one thing they allow outside income to be included in calculating retirements. Many things are screwed up, like CEO's getting huge amounts of money for walking away from companies they ran into the ground without the share holders having any say. So much for being beholden.
If a consumer doesn't like the executive pay or executive pension at Apple, he can buy less expensive phones from other phone makers. A taxpayer can't avoid being looted to pay for the public executives and public executive pensions even if he doesn't send his kids to the school.
Indexing public sector executive pay/pension to private sector executives is of course a nonsensical attempt to enrich the super-wealthy: very high salaries are actually very rare in the private sector, whereas in the public sector due to the monopolistic consolidated nature of the public sector there are far more supposedly "high revenue enterprises." At $10k/yr in property taxes, it only takes 100k houses in a town or city to aggregate a billion dollar "revenue"; should the vast majority of mayors be pulling million-dollar salaries and pensions too? What about the heads of the tax-collector's office in all those towns and cities? Why should heads of the assessor's office be paid less? Why should the head of the school district actually spending more than half of that money be paid less? Warehousing so many times more high-paying positions in the public sector would drive private sector executive pay even higher (supply vs. demand). The idea that public/monopolistic sector executive pay should be comparable to the private/competitive sector is utterly nonsensical and would work out to be massive subsidy to the wealthy. It's as if: if a 5000sqft home in Manhattan sold for $100million, somehow the government should offer to buy every 5000sqft home in the country for $100million each! What a huge subsidy to the already wealthy home owners that would be! If the public sector executives believe they can pull $million+ salaries in the private sector, let them go to the private sector and compete down executive pay in the private sector!
51
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 10:56am
Reality says
So post the numbers, it's true because I say it's true isn't good enough. Are you not aware students pay back student loans? That's why it's called a loan, not a gift from the taxpayers.
Reality says
Now this if funny. Want ot post the statute the AMA got passed to restrict the supply of doctors? I'll wait. Yes there were no residencies in the good old days when people did surgery without anaesthesia bare handed with a cigar in their mouth. Simple but affordable. That was the whole point of residency. To provide an extra level of training as medicine became more complicated. Feel free to go back to the days when your doctor treated your infectious disease or cancer with a warm compress and a shot of whiskey. Let us know how it works out.
It's better than the 1% number (only 1% of the college's revenue came from tax payers) that you quoted to deliberately obfuscate. Are you not aware that average medical students graduate with over $160k debt? Are you not aware that specific school gets paid by Oregon State university system via cross training programs?
So post the numbers, it's true because I say it's true isn't good enough. Are you not aware students pay back student loans? That's why it's called a loan, not a gift from the taxpayers.
Reality says
This is again nonsense! Just because the hospitals cry for more public funding because they waste money while limit the supply of doctors (the very purpose of founding AMA a century ago; before AMA successfully lobbied the government into restricting the supply of doctors medicine was so affordable that doctors visiting patients home to give treatment was routine). By your logic (training doctors is limited by the amount of funding for residency programs), hospitals and doctors didn't exist before there was government funding for residency programs! How dumb does a person have to be to believe in that kind of propaganda?!
Now this if funny. Want ot post the statute the AMA got passed to restrict the supply of doctors? I'll wait. Yes there were no residencies in the good old days when people did surgery without anaesthesia bare handed with a cigar in their mouth. Simple but affordable. That was the whole point of residency. To provide an extra level of training as medicine became more complicated. Feel free to go back to the days when your doctor treated your infectious disease or cancer with a warm compress and a shot of whiskey. Let us know how it works out.
52
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 11:06am
bob2356 says
You are describing the Civil War era army surgeon on the pay of the government. In the private sector, would you spend your own money to go to a surgeon like that? So why do you think many others would?
The irony is that, monopoly-driven high cost and consequent public-pay medicine that you advocate is precisely what leads to mice/roach infested hospitals in Cuba and Venezuela as well as in VA hospitals in the US.
Quality of service is a result of consumer choice while spending their own money, not that of the bureaucratic foremen on a slave plantation (which had single-payer "free" medicine for slaves).
Yes there were no residencies in the good old days when people did surgery without anaesthesia bare handed with a cigar in their mouth.
You are describing the Civil War era army surgeon on the pay of the government. In the private sector, would you spend your own money to go to a surgeon like that? So why do you think many others would?
The irony is that, monopoly-driven high cost and consequent public-pay medicine that you advocate is precisely what leads to mice/roach infested hospitals in Cuba and Venezuela as well as in VA hospitals in the US.
Quality of service is a result of consumer choice while spending their own money, not that of the bureaucratic foremen on a slave plantation (which had single-payer "free" medicine for slaves).
53
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 11:21am
bob2356 says
It's called board licensing requirement. The number of new licensees approved each year to practice medicine is pre-set via committee process, not based on how many graduating students are competent enough to practice medicine. That's the classic evidence of a monopoly restricting supply.
Want ot post the statute the AMA got passed to restrict the supply of doctors? I'll wait
It's called board licensing requirement. The number of new licensees approved each year to practice medicine is pre-set via committee process, not based on how many graduating students are competent enough to practice medicine. That's the classic evidence of a monopoly restricting supply.
54
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 11:29am
Reality says
What do you think medicine was in the pre resdency days? That was all there was. Modern anesthesia didn't start until the 1920's and IV anesthesia didn't start until the late1930's. Yes you paid for it because that's all there was. One of the first residencies was anesthesia.
Reality says
WTF are you babbling about? What is public pay medicine? Is that like the rest of the first world that gives better medical care for half the cost? Funny you said Cuba, I actually toured a hospital and school when I visted Cuba. Very clean, no mice or roaches. Cuban kids start learning english in 2nd grade.
Reality says
So 75-100k a year private medical schools provide better quality of service than 30-50k public medical schools? You are saying we would have a lot more doctors if everyone went to a 100k a year private medical school?
bob2356 saysYes there were no residencies in the good old days when people did surgery without anaesthesia bare handed with a cigar in their mouth.
You are describing the Civil War era army surgeon on the pay of the government. In the private sector, would you spend your own money to go to a surgeon like that? So why do you think others would?
What do you think medicine was in the pre resdency days? That was all there was. Modern anesthesia didn't start until the 1920's and IV anesthesia didn't start until the late1930's. Yes you paid for it because that's all there was. One of the first residencies was anesthesia.
Reality says
The irony is that, high cost and consequent public-pay medicine you advocate is precisely what leads to mice/roach infested hospitals in Cuba and Venezuela as well as in VA hospitals in the US.
WTF are you babbling about? What is public pay medicine? Is that like the rest of the first world that gives better medical care for half the cost? Funny you said Cuba, I actually toured a hospital and school when I visted Cuba. Very clean, no mice or roaches. Cuban kids start learning english in 2nd grade.
Reality says
Quality of service is a result of consumer choice while spending their own money, not that of the bureaucratic foremen on a slave plantation.
So 75-100k a year private medical schools provide better quality of service than 30-50k public medical schools? You are saying we would have a lot more doctors if everyone went to a 100k a year private medical school?
55
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 11:30am
bob2356 says
Still waiting. and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
Want ot post the statute the AMA got passed to restrict the supply of doctors?
Still waiting. and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
56
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 11:37am
Reality says
ROFLOL.
Reality says
Many do, there is a constant churn between private industry and public service. You didn't get the memo? Try again.
very high salaries are actually very rare in the private sector,
ROFLOL.
Reality says
If the public sector executives believe they can pull $million+ salaries in the private sector, let them go to the private sector and compete down executive pay in the private sector!
Many do, there is a constant churn between private industry and public service. You didn't get the memo? Try again.
57
bob2356
2018 Apr 16, 11:42am
Goran_K says
Sure it could, that's what journalism and voting are for. Compensation committees don't skew? Usually without stockholders having a vote. Compensation committees are the ultimate incestious relationship.
bob2356 saysPublic entities are beholden to the politicians who are beholden to the voters. If voters want to stick their heads in the sand and fail to hold their politicians responsible that is their choice. Oregon has public referendum. Anyone is free to put a referendum on the ballot to reform PERS, but it hasn't happened yet.
Yes I agree. But here it seems that there is an admission that political corruption could skew what is fair or outrageous in terms of compensation.
Sure it could, that's what journalism and voting are for. Compensation committees don't skew? Usually without stockholders having a vote. Compensation committees are the ultimate incestious relationship.
58
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 12:05pm
bob2356 says
Not sure what you are trying to say . . . that US government genetically engineered/invented the opium poppy plant 4000 years ago? As anesthesia started 4000 years ago with the discovery of the medicinal use of the plant. The early 20th century "modern anesthesia" was just a packaging exercise: only allowing licensed "patent medicine" makers to use the plant extract while outlawing all other vendors using the same plant. Attributing the invention of IV to AMA is just silly. Do you think every medical invention during Obama years were due to Obamacare? and every medical invention during Trump years as result of abolishing/modifying Obamacare?
Medical students in the 19th century had post-graduate internships before practicing on their own even before there was board requirement to practice medicine. What happened at the beginning of 20th century was the AMA board licensing requirement and FDA approval requirement, both designed to raise the profit margin of licensed monopolies.
bob2356 says
Have you not heard of the Potempkin Village? What you saw was not the average affair for typical Cuban people, not even for the typical local elite, but a "model hospital" that is specifically put together to showcase to foreign "useful idiots" like Walter Duranty and latter-day "fellow-travellers" like him.
"Better medical care for half the cost" in other first-world countries largely because they don't have administrators pulling multi-million-dollar annual salaries and pensions . . . aren't you trying to say multi-million dollar high executive pay is justifiable?
bob2356 says
Nope. You are the one trying to say higher payer/cost is a good thing. I'm advocating removing the licensing requirement altogether . . . so if people want, they can learn medical knowledge on their own, take medical exams (run like private testing services, like SAT, not like the current board exam run by AMA as a political lobby for restricting supply), then find their own internships and open their own practices, so the cost can be much much lower! If people want to pay $100k/yr of their own money to get a solid gold degree (and a solid gold toilet to go with it), let them spend their own money; there shouldn't be a board licensing requirement that limited the number of new licenses each year in such a way that the $100k/yr graduate is more likely to find match in hospitals (once again limited in supply due to licensing requirement) in high standards of living parts of the country than the $30-50k/yr medical school graudates (who are currently more likely to find opening in poorer parts of the country, therefore would make less on the new job). Removing licensing requirement would result in far more doctors and far more hospitals competing for customers.
What do you think medicine was in the pre resdency days? That was all there was. Modern anesthesia didn't start until the 1920's and IV anesthesia didn't start until the late1930's. Yes you paid for it because that's all there was. One of the first residencies was anesthesia.
Not sure what you are trying to say . . . that US government genetically engineered/invented the opium poppy plant 4000 years ago? As anesthesia started 4000 years ago with the discovery of the medicinal use of the plant. The early 20th century "modern anesthesia" was just a packaging exercise: only allowing licensed "patent medicine" makers to use the plant extract while outlawing all other vendors using the same plant. Attributing the invention of IV to AMA is just silly. Do you think every medical invention during Obama years were due to Obamacare? and every medical invention during Trump years as result of abolishing/modifying Obamacare?
Medical students in the 19th century had post-graduate internships before practicing on their own even before there was board requirement to practice medicine. What happened at the beginning of 20th century was the AMA board licensing requirement and FDA approval requirement, both designed to raise the profit margin of licensed monopolies.
bob2356 says
WTF are you babbling about? What is public pay medicine? Is that like the rest of the first world that gives better medical care for half the cost? Funny you said Cuba, I actually toured a hospital and school when I visted Cuba. Very clean, no mice or roaches. Cuban kids start learning english in 2nd grade.
Have you not heard of the Potempkin Village? What you saw was not the average affair for typical Cuban people, not even for the typical local elite, but a "model hospital" that is specifically put together to showcase to foreign "useful idiots" like Walter Duranty and latter-day "fellow-travellers" like him.
"Better medical care for half the cost" in other first-world countries largely because they don't have administrators pulling multi-million-dollar annual salaries and pensions . . . aren't you trying to say multi-million dollar high executive pay is justifiable?
bob2356 says
So 75-100k a year private medical schools provide better quality of service than 30-50k public medical schools? You are saying we would have a lot more doctors if everyone went to a 100k a year private medical school?
Nope. You are the one trying to say higher payer/cost is a good thing. I'm advocating removing the licensing requirement altogether . . . so if people want, they can learn medical knowledge on their own, take medical exams (run like private testing services, like SAT, not like the current board exam run by AMA as a political lobby for restricting supply), then find their own internships and open their own practices, so the cost can be much much lower! If people want to pay $100k/yr of their own money to get a solid gold degree (and a solid gold toilet to go with it), let them spend their own money; there shouldn't be a board licensing requirement that limited the number of new licenses each year in such a way that the $100k/yr graduate is more likely to find match in hospitals (once again limited in supply due to licensing requirement) in high standards of living parts of the country than the $30-50k/yr medical school graudates (who are currently more likely to find opening in poorer parts of the country, therefore would make less on the new job). Removing licensing requirement would result in far more doctors and far more hospitals competing for customers.
59
Reality
2018 Apr 16, 12:08pm
bob2356 says
Have you not heard of the board licensing requirement for practicing medicine? You are just pretending to be stupid.
bob2356 saysWant ot post the statute the AMA got passed to restrict the supply of doctors?
Still waiting. and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
Have you not heard of the board licensing requirement for practicing medicine? You are just pretending to be stupid.
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A public university president in Oregon gives new meaning to the idea of a pensioner.
Joseph Robertson, an eye surgeon who retired as head of the Oregon Health & Science University last fall, receives the state’s largest government pension.
It is $76,111.
Per month.
That is considerably more than the average Oregon family earns in a year
WTF and I thought IL was bad.