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Islam and Violence


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2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   606,238 views  2,815 comments

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Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

« First        Comments 962 - 1,001 of 2,815       Last »     Search these comments

962   Patrick   2018 Sep 1, 9:57am  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/31/double-stabbing-amsterdam-station-possible-terror-attack/

A knife attacker on Friday stabbed two people at Amsterdam's Central Station before being shot by police in a suspected terror attack, Dutch police said.

The suspect was identified late on Friday evening as a 19-year-old Afghan man with a German residency permit.

"We are seriously taking into account that there was a terrorist motive," Frans Zuiderhoek, Amsterdam police spokesman, told AFP.


Ya think?
963   Patrick   2018 Sep 1, 10:08am  

The Dutch friend who sent this says this attack is being under-reported in Holland.
964   Strategist   2018 Sep 1, 10:18am  

Bad news folks.
Geert Wilders has submitted to Islam. The cartoon competition has been called off.

Geert Wilders cancels Muhammad cartoon contest after Pakistan ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk › News
1 day ago - Geert Wilders, the far-right Dutch politician, has cancelled a cartoon drawing contest of the Prophet Muhammad after alleged death threats and large-scale protests in Pakistan. ... “To avoid the risk of victims of Islamic violence, I have decided to not let the cartoon contest go ...
965   Strategist   2018 Sep 1, 10:23am  

Palestinians issue terrorism threats if Jizya not paid. They say it's their right to get the Jizya. As per Koran, yes, it is their right.

Palestinians: US decision to cut UNRWA funds promotes terrorism ...
https://www.jpost.com/.../Palestinians-US-decision-to-cut-UNRWA-funds-promotes-te...
1 day ago - This is an assault on the rights of the Palestinian people and part of a series of anti-Palestinian US decisions and policies.”
966   FortWayne   2018 Sep 1, 11:57am  

Strategist says
Geert Wilders cancels Muhammad cartoon contest after Pakistan ...


Muslims are terrorists, but they command respect through fear. Got to give them that. CNN isn't going to criticize them, CNN only attacks those who don't fight back.
967   CBOEtrader   2018 Sep 1, 12:49pm  

FortWayne says
CNN isn't going to criticize them, CNN only attacks those who don't fight back.


Same thing with the progressives who call trump supporters nazis. If trump supporters were actually dangerous people, do you think these rich spoiled white kids would be marching up to them in those silly black uniforms?
968   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Sep 1, 1:32pm  

Strategist says
Palestinians: US decision to cut UNRWA funds promotes terrorism ...


Yeah, there was no Palestinian Terrorist when UNRWA was around since 1949. Love how Arabs lie so brazenly.
969   Strategist   2018 Sep 1, 2:00pm  

Where are the Saudis in all this? They said they were willing to dies for their Palestinians brothers, but they are not willing to give them money or take them as refugees? ROFL.

Dear fucking Palestinians,
Why would I give you any money when you want to kill my kids?
Fuck Off!
US Tax Payer
970   curious2   2018 Sep 1, 5:44pm  

Strategist says
Palestinians issue terrorism threats if Jizya not paid. They say it's their right to get the Jizya.


"The US decision to withdraw funding for a United Nations (UN) agency that helps Palestinian refugees has been called “an attack on the rights of the Palestinian people” by a spokesperson for president Mahmoud Abbas.

Nabil Abu Rudeineh said the move “does not serve peace but rather strengthens terrorism in the region”.
***
The US is traditionally the largest contributor to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), contributing nearly 30 per cent of its total budget.
"

IOW, stop paying jizya = "an attack on the rights" of Muslims, and will result in strengthening (i.e., escalating) Muslims' terrorism against everyone else. That sounds like an argument for aggressive response to eliminate the express Islamic threat. It was self-defeating to appease those terrorists, but now Germany will reportedly increase jizya and is demanding others do the same, to make up for the US cuts. The US should not pay ransom to terrorists, and the US should not pay jizya to Muslims, for the same reason.
971   Strategist   2018 Sep 1, 7:19pm  

curious2 says
Nabil Abu Rudeineh said the move “does not serve peace but rather strengthens terrorism in the region”.
***
The US is traditionally the largest contributor to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), contributing nearly 30 per cent of its total budget.
"

IOW, stop paying jizya = "an attack on the rights" of Muslims, and will result in strengthening (i.e., escalating) Muslims' terrorism against everyone else. That sounds like an argument for aggressive response to eliminate the express Islamic threat. It was self-defeating to appease those terrorists, but now Germany will reportedly increase jizya and is demanding others do the same, to make up for the US cuts. The US should not pay ran...


The threat is clear. Pay up, or we kill even more.
We have been paying Jizya to them for 70 years, yet terrorism has been increasing. We won't get a different result by continuing to pay, so lets do something different:
Stop paying them. Use the money to proactively eliminate Hamas.
Put a bounty on the heads of key Hamas players.
Target every key Hamas player for assassination.
Invest in drone and spy technology, to identify and assassinate Hamas leaders.
972   Strategist   2018 Sep 1, 7:28pm  

No reason why we cannot develop little sniper drones that can stay airborne for long periods of time, with facial recognition technology, that would shoot one bullet at the identified target, before returning to base for recharging. Hundreds of those at any one time, searching for targets.
Folks, drone technology is the future. Flying drones, submarine drones, drones on wheels, drones to spy and listen, and micro drones the size of flies.
973   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Sep 1, 7:47pm  

Strategist says
We have been paying Jizya to them for 70 years, yet terrorism has been increasing. We won't get a different result by continuing to pay, so lets do something different:


It's that Palestinians are the only people in the world who inherit refugee status..

Imagine if you grandfather was in a Famine, but because he was, you, you parents, your children are considered "Famine Sufferers" and organizations get money based on that.

In fact, more money is given to the descendants of "Famine Sufferers" than those currently or just recenlty Suffering Famine personally.

UNRWA spends more money per Palestinian "Refugee" with more workers per Palestinian "Refugee" than actual right-here-right-now Refugees get.

The population of UNRWA Palestinian "Refugees" is 300% higher today than the entire population of British Mandate Palestine in 1946 Think about that.

Pretty crazy, eh?
974   Strategist   2018 Sep 1, 8:23pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Strategist says
We have been paying Jizya to them for 70 years, yet terrorism has been increasing. We won't get a different result by continuing to pay, so lets do something different:


It's that Palestinians are the only people in the world who inherit refugee status..

Imagine if you grandfather was in a Famine, but because he was, you, you parents, your children are considered "Famine Sufferers" and organizations get money based on that.

In fact, more money is given to the descendants of "Famine Sufferers" than those currently or just recenlty Suffering Famine personally.

UNRWA spends more money per Palestinian "Refugee" with more workers per Palestinian "Refugee" than actual right-here-right-now Refugees get.

The population of UNRWA Palestinian "Refugees" is 300% higher today than the entire population of British Mandate Palestine in 1946...


Supporting them like Welfare Queens is the primary reason why terrorism continues. They are not occupied as they claim, they are conquered. Every region on earth today was conquered by someone at some time. The losers took what they could and moved on. Why are the Palestinians so special? Why not Crimea? or Tibet to name some recent conquests?
Israel won't give up their land, and Palestinians can't take it. Palestinians are the losers. Take what you can and move on. Foolish liberals who support Palestinians only end up prolonging bloodshed. Stop supporting Hamas, assassinate Hamas members who insist on using suicide bombers, and eventually they will lay down their arms. Only way peace will follow.
976   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Sep 2, 3:44am  

Strategist says
Supporting them like Welfare Queens is the primary reason why terrorism continues. They are not occupied as they claim, they are conquered. Every region on earth today was conquered by someone at some time. The losers took what they could and moved on. Why are the Palestinians so special? Why not Crimea? or Tibet to name some recent conquests?
Israel won't give up their land, and Palestinians can't take it. Palestinians are the losers. Take what you can and move on. Foolish liberals who support Palestinians only end up prolonging bloodshed. Stop supporting Hamas, assassinate Hamas members who insist on using suicide bombers, and eventually they will lay down their arms. Only way peace will follow.


That's exactly right.

It's the UNRWA money and other aid that allows the Palestinians to refuse any and all Peace Deals that doesn't give them 100% of what they want. Despite losing multiple wars - most of which they were key participants in, especially the Independence War of 1947.

After witnessing South Africa and Zimbabwe, nobody is buying the Happy Hippy Get Along Bullshit scenario.
977   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Sep 2, 3:46am  

Oh, one more quick word.

The Islamic World does not separate religion and state. If the state and religion come in conflict, Shari'a law prevails.

So while Iraq Civil Law might say 18 is the age of marriage, with 15 only for girls with parental consent, it doesn't mean shit, since marriages are the Shari'a Courts purview and trump Civil Law, therefore 20% of all Iraqi Marriages are to girls under 18, and 5% (1 in 20) under 15. That's the current Iraq, not Saddam's.
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/child-marriage/iraq/

Site doesn't mention it but like all Islamic countries, Christian Men cannot marry Islamic Women, but the reverse is not true. All Islamic Schools (Fiqh) are unanimous in this.
978   Strategist   2018 Sep 2, 9:07am  

curious2 says

Yes, I suspect it was connected to the cartoon contest, which (as Strategist reported above) is now cancelled to prevent further Islamic violence:


Look at it this way. The Islamists are only too willing to kill innocent people over this. Wilders cancelled the contest so they don't get killed. According to many people, it's Wilders who is the bad guy, while those who kill are the good guys. Go figure.
979   Patrick   2018 Sep 2, 4:33pm  

The contest should be entirely online and anonymous, mirrored to many sites.

That format would be pretty much uncensorable.
980   Patrick   2018 Sep 2, 7:03pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
UNRWA spends more money per Palestinian "Refugee" with more workers per Palestinian "Refugee" than actual right-here-right-now Refugees get.

The population of UNRWA Palestinian "Refugees" is 300% higher today than the entire population of British Mandate Palestine in 1946 Think about that.

Pretty crazy, eh?


Sounds like a pretty good illustration of some of Warren Buffett's "institutional imperatives":

1) As if governed by Newton's First Law of Motion, an institution will resist any change in its current direction; (2) Just as work expands to fill available time, corporate projects or acquisitions will materialize to soak up available funds;


https://mosstuff.quora.com/Warren-Buffett-on-the-institutional-imperative

So of course if an agency is getting funding, it will continue to claim to need that funding (and more!) every year no matter what.
981   Strategist   2018 Sep 2, 7:08pm  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
The population of UNRWA Palestinian "Refugees" is 300% higher today than the entire population of British Mandate Palestine in 1946 Think about that.

Pretty crazy, eh?


And they say Israel is engaged in genocide. Israelis aren't very good at it, are they? Maybe the Arabs can teach them.
982   Patrick   2018 Sep 2, 8:24pm  

Patrick says
A knife attacker on Friday stabbed two people at Amsterdam's Central Station


Just heard they were two Americans. Serious but not life threatening injuries.

I'd like to say that that's two more Americans who have now achieved the same enlightenment about Islam that the original post above explains so well, but I'm not entirely sure. The victims may well be so liberal that they blame themselves for getting stabbed.
983   Strategist   2018 Sep 2, 8:53pm  

Patrick says
I've been to Israel and my impression is that the Israelis are kinda assholes in terms of the land and exclusion. They see it all as theirs, given by God himself. They don't want the Palestinians there and don't want to try to assimilate more Muslims into their Jewish country, the only one on earth. And the Muslim Palestinians certainly have no interest in joining Jewish society. Or even letting Jews live. I think most Palestinians would definitely exterminate all Jews if they could.

But that said, aside from the occupation and dominance part of it, the Israelis are not committing genocide in any way. If they really wanted to kill all the Palestinians, they could do that pretty easily. But they do not. They just make life uncomfortable for them, slowly build more settlements, and hope the Palestinians leave.


I agree. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, all they have to do is carpet bomb the hell out of them, and it's all over for the Palis. But they do not. The Palestinians use every method possible to kill every Jew they can. Imagine what would happen if the Palis got a nuclear bomb from Iran or Pakistan. Just imagine.
I'm not Jewish, nor am I a Muslim. I don't give a crap for any religion or political boundaries, but I do know Islam is an insane religion that must be curtailed at all cost.
984   curious2   2018 Sep 3, 1:31am  

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Christian Men cannot marry Islamic Women, but the reverse is not true. All Islamic Schools (Fiqh) are unanimous in this.


I had never heard that, so I read further, and learned it is true, and the plot thickens. "Under Islamic law, if a non-Muslim woman is married to a non-Muslim, and she converts to Islam, the marriage is suspended until her husband converts to Islam. She could, in theory, leave the non-Muslim husband and marry a Muslim one." That is also a one-way street because Muslims and their children are prohibited from leaving Islam (apostasy), on pain of death, which is carried out legally as capital punishment or illegally as vigilante "honor killings".

Strategist says
Wilders cancelled the contest so they don't get killed. According to many people, it's Wilders who is the bad guy, while those who kill are the good guys. Go figure.


That is also amazing, and shows the hypocrisy of some on the left with regard to violence. Pacifists and most cartoonists tend to identify with the left, but the left embraces AntiFa violence, and Professor Melissa "We need some muscle over here" Click, and the left embraces Islam, which commands violence against cartoonists.

When people worry about nuclear war, most tend to imagine the other side being Russia or North Korea, per MSM. I think Pakistan and other Muslims are much more likely to launch a first strike, most likely via terrorists, and then to deny any involvement.
985   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 9:10am  

curious2 says
TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says
Christian Men cannot marry Islamic Women, but the reverse is not true. All Islamic Schools (Fiqh) are unanimous in this.


I had never heard that, so I read further, and learned it is true, and the plot thickens.


Yup. Absolutely true. It's one way of ensuring the expansion of Islam. Apostasy, Jizya, orphans of infidels must be raised as Muslims, and a host of other laws ensure Islam can only expand.
It's brilliant. It has worked perfectly over the centuries.
986   Patrick   2018 Sep 3, 9:20am  

Their weakness, ironically, seems to be a very simple thing: mockery of Mohammed.

Cartoons are the thermal exhaust port of the Death Star named Islam.
987   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 10:12am  

Lesbians in Malaysia get caned.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/03/asia/malaysia-gay-rights-lesbian-caning-intl/index.html
(CNN)Two gay women have been caned in Malaysia amid a worsening climate for LGBT individuals in the Muslim-majority Southeast Asian nation.

The punishment of the two unnamed women took place Monday morning in Terengganu, a state to the east of the capital, Kuala Lumpur, according to rights campaigner Thilaga Sulathireth. The state is governed by Sharia law.
--------
If you are a far left liberal, adamant on equal rights, human rights etc, and you still apologize for Islam, I question your sanity.
988   FortWayne   2018 Sep 3, 12:24pm  

Red line that they enforce harshly.
Yet gays here in America don’t appreciate America and it’s freedoms. They think they are oppressed here.

Time to ship them all off to Malaysia for a dose of world reality.

Strategist says
Lesbians in Malaysia get caned.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/03/asia/malaysia-gay-rights-lesbian-caning-intl/index.html
(CNN)Two gay women have been caned in Malaysia amid a worsening climate for LGBT individuals in the Muslim-majority Southeast Asian nation.

The punishment of the two unnamed women took place Monday morning in Terengganu, a state to the east of the capital, Kuala Lumpur, according to rights campaigner Thilaga Sulathireth. The state is governed by Sharia law.
--------
If you are a far left liberal, adamant on equal rights, human rights etc, and you still apologize for Islam, I question your sanity.
989   curious2   2018 Sep 3, 2:52pm  

Patrick says
Their weakness, ironically, seems to be a very simple thing: mockery of Mohammed.


Yes, especially cartoons. Children love cartoons, and Islam commands parents to kill their own children for mocking Islam. Mockery is very powerful, especially for a doctrine such as Islam that is all about "dignity" and the phony peace of oppression, i.e. silencing anyone who doesn't believe in Islam.

It may be possible in the modern world to end Islam, partly by weaponizing comedians and cartoonists: relentless mockery and cartoons, all the time, everywhere. April Fool's Day used to be a Pagan holiday, until Christians used mockery against the Pagans.

The west defeated communism, which was an inherently materialist doctrine, by providing greater material wealth. It made a huge impression on Boris Yeltsin when he walked into a random American supermarket, and saw ordinary American shoppers amidst such plenty as would never be seen in the USSR, and looking bored. He could see ordinary Americans took for granted a level of wealth that their Russian counterparts could never attain, and he knew in that moment communism had failed.

We don't have much time regarding Islam. With the USSR, the MAD doctrine provided adequate deterrence even in a nuclear world. With countless Muslims ready to kill themselves for Islam and take disbelievers with them, MAD will not work long. Huge numbers of Muslims become motivated to lethal violence over a joke. It is only a matter of time before some of those Muslims get control of a nuclear weapon. At that point, we will either need to censor everyone and submit to Islam, or endure a horrifying war.

FortWayne says
ship them all off to Malaysia for a dose of world reality.


That's backwards. It's time to bring the people persecuted by Islam (e.g. the Malaysian caned lesbians) here in order to get detailed cultural advice about how to end the persecution. How exactly do you mock Mohammed in Malaysia? What are the worst forms of mockery in Malaysian culture? Who's who in Malaysia, how do you change Malaysian culture? You need some actual Malaysians to answer these questions, preferably people who are highly motivated to change the culture, and who have family there who can provide feedback as to how it's going.
990   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 4:51pm  

curious2 says
We don't have much time regarding Islam. With the USSR, the MAD doctrine provided adequate deterrence even in a nuclear world. With countless Muslims ready to kill themselves for Islam and take disbelievers with them, MAD will not work long. Huge numbers of Muslims become motivated to lethal violence over a joke. It is only a matter of time before some of those Muslims get control of a nuclear weapon.


Every day Islamists get closer to getting a nuke. Pakistan continues to add nuke after nuke. Iran continues it's research and missile technology to deliver nukes. NK would not hesitate to sell nuclear technology.
I'm sure Iran and some other countries would love to pay any amount of money to get a few nukes. Some Pakistani general or scientist, that hates the USA and Israel, can easily be convinced to sell nuke technology for a $100 million. How do we know it's not happening now?
We have done a horrible job stopping the spread of nuclear technology, as each President simply keeps kicking the can down the street. One nuclear bomb going off in a major Western city will lead to a catastrophic loss of human life, the stock market will completely collapse, and we will have the the worst depression ever, along with major wars.
991   curious2   2018 Sep 3, 5:08pm  

Strategist says
One nuclear bomb going off in a major Western city will lead to a catastrophic loss of human life....


and a parade of politicians declaring this has nothing to do with Islam, even as the perpetrators are proven to have been Muslims committing the attack in the name of Islam. My favorite example remains the Orlando Pulse attack, where Omar Mateen was literally on the phone with 911 declaring his allegiance to the Islamic State and saying he was killing people on behalf of "his country" (i.e. the Islamic State), and POTUS and DoJ tried to censor the transcript to omit all references to Islam.

I suspect that even a nuclear Islamic attack on a western city would be met with more of the same. We would see also a parade of stories about the handful of sympathetic Muslims who were killed, nevermind that from the Islamic POV, that's all good because they go to eternal paradise while the disbelievers burn in hell.

It would however drive many western voters to embrace whoever campaigns on defending against Islam, but will those votes even count if more jurisdictions enact paperless electronic ballots and NPVIC?
992   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 5:18pm  

curious2 says
Strategist says
One nuclear bomb going off in a major Western city will lead to a catastrophic loss of human life....


and a parade of politicians declaring this has nothing to do with Islam, even as the perpetrators are proven to have been Muslims committing the attack in the name of Islam. My favorite example remains the Orlando Pulse attack, where Omar Mateen was literally on the phone with 911 declaring his allegiance to the Islamic State and saying he was killing people on behalf of "his country" (i.e. the Islamic State), and POTUS and DoJ tried to censor the transcript to omit all references to Islam.

I suspect that even a nuclear Islamic attack on a western city would be met with more of the same. We would see also a parade of stories about the handful of sympathetic Muslims who were killed, nevermind that from the Islamic POV, that's all good because they go to eternal paradise while th...


A nuclear explosion in a major Western city followed by an economic collapse will enrage the average person on the street. Muslims who have nothing to do with violence will end up being victimized. Even those who just look like Muslims will get attacked.
Nothing good can come from not taking severe steps to control the spread of nukes. Why even take a small chance?
993   curious2   2018 Sep 3, 5:38pm  

Strategist says
Nothing good can come from not taking severe steps to control the spread of nukes. Why even take a small chance?


Most people agree on that, but disagree about where the risk is. NATO politicians and MSM emphasize Russia and North Korea, even though MAD deters the leaders in both of those countries from starting a nuclear exchange. That reflects institutional inertia: senior people who have made their careers during the cold war continue the mentality that got them where they are. Pakistan presents a bigger risk than North Korea, but Pakistan pretended to be on "our side" during the cold war against the godless communists, so it is misperceived as an ally, even after hiding OBL from us while collecting $ from us ostensibly to help us find him.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a terrorist state that would literally side with OBL and KSA against the USA. We know Pakistan would do that because that happened. It should tell us something about Islam, and what other Islamic countries would do to us, but some people are highly paid not to get that message. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." "There are none so blind as those who will not see." So long as Nixon's disastrous deals with KSA continue to give Muslims the power to corrupt NATO governments and MSM, the established pattern continues.
994   Patrick   2018 Sep 3, 5:40pm  

curious2 says
It may be possible in the modern world to end Islam, partly by weaponizing comedians and cartoonists: relentless mockery and cartoons, all the time, everywhere.


I like the idea of a cartoon brigade, in memory of the Charlie Hebdo staff.

Deploy the cartoons!
995   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 5:56pm  

curious2 says
Strategist says
Nothing good can come from not taking severe steps to control the spread of nukes. Why even take a small chance?


Most people agree on that, but disagree about where the risk is.


Iran and Pakistan are too obvious a risk for anyone to disagree on. Yet it happens. I'm so glad Trump is there to take the right action and not kick the can down the road, like the past idiots.
996   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 5:57pm  

Patrick says
curious2 says
It may be possible in the modern world to end Islam, partly by weaponizing comedians and cartoonists: relentless mockery and cartoons, all the time, everywhere.


I like the idea of a cartoon brigade, in memory of the Charlie Hebdo staff.

Deploy the cartoons!


I would love to see that. Who are they gonna kill? Everyone?
997   curious2   2018 Sep 3, 6:09pm  

Strategist says
Who are they gonna kill? Everyone?


Many will die trying. Here is a photo of a Muslim who detonated a suicide belt but survived long enough to look around wondering what to say to his intended victims, who gathered around and made videos of him. I saw graphic videos, but here is a sanitized still, with a caption:



This page describes the scene and shows a sanitized YouTube video:
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/yemen-failed-isis-suicide-bomber-found-alive-after-blowing-himself-in-half/

For those who can't draw well enough to win a cartoon contest, hold a caption contest:
"This is your brain on Islam."
"Go immediately to paradise, they said. Virgins and milk and honey, they said...."
"If Ahmed had gone right to the police, this would never have happened."
"Choices: send your boys to Catholic school and they get molested but live long lives; send them to madrassah and they end up like this."
Follow those with a serious warning that Islam causes this behavior around the world. It is worse than communism and drugs combined.
998   Strategist   2018 Sep 3, 6:33pm  

curious2 says


Ha ha ha. Your ass is the virgin, and Mohammad is waiting to fuck it day and night.
1000   curious2   2018 Sep 3, 8:46pm  

Patrick says
I like the idea of a cartoon brigade, in memory of the Charlie Hebdo staff.

Deploy the cartoons!


Release the comics!

1001   MisdemeanorRebel   2018 Sep 3, 8:50pm  

One of the best methods to defeat Islam is too encourage battles over Hadiths, Qurans, Fiqh, and Sectarianism.

I think this is actually underutilized. Any Muslim stomping about how perfect and inerrant the Quran and Islam is should be bombarded with questions about Twelvers, Ibadi, Wahabi/Salafi, Sufis, etc. etc.

Atomizing Islam into as many denominations as possible is a good technique since it encourages free thought while promoting infighting and mutual accusations of heresy.

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