patrick.net

LastMan says

CBOEtrader says

I'm glad you re recognize that one must come before the other, not all at once.

I'm disappointed that you missed the point. He's increasing spending while cutting taxes. Debt is ballooning. We don't have to wait to see that he's failing on the financial front.

Wall Street is the ultimate judge on the economy and economic policies. Wall Street has concluded "increasing spending while cutting taxes" will benefit the economy at this point in time.
I would go with Wall Street.

Aphroman says

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

I'm so old, I remember an October not long ago when Obama, Hillary, the entire Democratic Party, and the Media was lecturing me about accepting the outcome of an election.

Two years later and the Trumpcucks are still bitter that Hillary received more votes. How sad is that?

No Aphroman, no. It would be the Democrats who are bitter, having lost the election even though they got more votes.

Aphroman says

Donald Trump claimed Obama was a foreign born Muslin to this day.

That he did, and knowingly lied. I'm sure he also cheated on his wives, his taxes, and in his business dealings. It's all irrelevant. What matters is, is he good for the country and the world when it comes to the most pressing issues we face? Is he good for the economy, is he capable of dealing with Islam and dictators. That is all that matters.

Strategist says

I'm sure he also cheated on his wives, his taxes, and in his business dealings. It's all irrelevant. What matters is, is he good for the country and the world when it comes to the most pressing issues we face? Is he good for the economy, is he capable of dealing with Islam and dictators. That is all that matters.

Agreed. We don't need a nice president. We need an effective president, and we finally got one, somehow.

Aphroman says

Strategist says

Aphroman says

Donald Trump claimed Obama was a foreign born Muslin to this day.

That he did, and knowingly lied. I'm sure he also cheated on his wives, his taxes, and in his business dealings. It's all irrelevant. What matters is, is he good for the country and the world when it comes to the most pressing issues we face? Is he good for the economy, is he capable of dealing with Islam and dictators. That is all that matters.

Most importantly is he good for our Sovereignty

I don't recall our sovereignty ever being questioned or even an issue.

Patrick says

Agreed. We don't need a nice president. We need an effective president, and we finally got one, somehow.

Why do Trump supporters keep pretending that peoples' objections to Trump are because he isn't "nice"?

I don't care if he's nice. I care that his policies are crap. The latest revelation is that he personally lobbied for Sheldon Adelson with the Japanese Prime Minister after Adelson donated to his campaign and Republicans. Drain the swamp, indeed.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-lobbied-japans-abe-on-casino-for-adelson-report/

“It was totally brought up out of the blue,” one person briefed on the exchange told ProPublica/WNYC. “They were a little incredulous that he would be so brazen.” After the exchange in which Trump said he should consider Las Vegas Sands for a license, “Abe didn’t really respond, and said thank you for the information,” the person said"

I know, I know. But, but, but... Hillary's emails.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

Interesting, but fail to see how it will change my life.

Start with page 1 and keep going...

OK, read it. Still don't see the relevancy to me. Do you think I'm anti free speech?

LeonDurham says

I don't care if he's nice. I care that his policies are crap. The latest revelation is that he personally lobbied for Sheldon Adelson with the Japanese Prime Minister after Adelson donated to his campaign and Republicans. Drain the swamp, indeed.

OMG, he did? I'm sure Obama never lobbied anybody personally for a donor, and we all know Hillary would never, ever, do anything.

I know, I know, to mention that Democrats do it is whataboutery, and we shouldn't interrupt criticism of Trump with pesky reminders that every politician, including and especially Democrats, have done so.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

OMG, he did? I'm sure Obama never lobbied anybody personally for a donor, and we all know Hillary would never, ever, do anything.

I don't know of any time Obama did, and judging by Abe's reaction, it definitely appears that nobody had done anything remotely like it in the past.

Regardless, didn't you vote for Trump because you THOUGHT he was different?

Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?

LeonDurham says

Why do Trump supporters keep pretending that peoples' objections to Trump are because he isn't "nice"?

I don't care if he's nice. I care that his policies are crap. The latest revelation is that he personally lobbied for Sheldon Adelson with the Japanese Prime Minister after Adelson donated to his campaign and Republicans. Drain the swamp, indeed.

Lobbying for Sheldon Adelson is not even a policy.
It seems to me you don't like him for whatever reason, and keep digging for something that makes him look bad. That's an obsession.

LeonDurham says

Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?

I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.

Strategist says

Lobbying for Sheldon Adelson is not even a policy.

Sorry, you're right. Pay for play isn't a policy, it's another example of the corruptness of Trump and his cronies. He is the worst of the swamp creatures and it's no surprise that his cabinet was full of men and women of similar morals.

Strategist says

I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.

Surprised you repeated the mistake again in the next election.

LeonDurham says

Regardless, didn't you vote for Trump because you THOUGHT he was different?

I voted for tariffs, NAFTA renegotiation, less boots on the ground, less rapefugees, more restrictions on immigration from states with Islamist Violence, anti-PC, the #2A, Israel, and the Wall.

I already got most of what I want and it's not halfway in his Term yet. Very pleased.

I voted for Obama in 2008 for a new Glass-Steagal. Instead I got some kind of Heavily Corporate Subsidized "Heath Care", intended to be as mandatory as Car Insurance. And a reversal of race relations, and a lot of Franz Fanon Turd Worlder Talk, Michael Froman of Citigroup vetting the Entire Cabinet, and a betrayal of Israel as a final move.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

I voted for tariffs, NAFTA renegotiation, less boots on the ground, anti-PC, the #2A, and the Wall.

lol--yeah, you really got what you wanted with the NAFTA renegotiation. What happened to all your posts about soy boy Trudeau caving??

Are there fewer boots on the ground?

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

I voted for Obama in 2008 for Bank Regulation. I got some kind of Heavily Subsidized Corporate "Heath Care" instead, intended to be as mandatory as Car Insurance.

Well, you're definitely not getting bank regulation now. That's for damn sure.

LeonDurham says

lol--yeah, you really got what you wanted with the NAFTA renegotiation. What happened to all your posts about soy boy Trudeau caving??

You must have missed it. Trudeau caved like Jacques Cousteau in the Blue Hole of Belize. Opened the Canadian Diary Market wide, and got minimum North American Parts for autos increased.



LeonDurham says

Well, you're definitely not getting bank regulation now. That's for damn sure.

I didn't get any bank regulation right on the heels of a massive banking crisis with Dems controlling the House & Presidency.

But a lot of blah blah about Henri Louis Gates being the victim of racism because people saw a dude trying to open windows on a house in broad daylight and the cops asking what he was doing.

USMCA: Trudeau Surrenders.
https://patrick.net/post/1319249/2018-10-01-markets-up-bigly-as-canada-caves-ushers-in-usmca

Of course he did. Liberals lost the past 4 of 5 provincial elections, including their old Stronghold of Quebec and even Ottawa. Companies were already laying off thousands in anticipation of no deal.

Strategist says

Wall Street is the ultimate judge on the economy and economic policies. Wall Street has concluded "increasing spending while cutting taxes" will benefit the economy at this point in time.

At this point in time. You hit the nail on the head with that part, that Wall Street is short term in its thinking. What will boost profits and thus commissions now. Most politicians, including Trump, are the same in their short term thinking. They push ahead with whatever their agenda is and put it on the back of the national debt.

I'm a long term thinker and expect the same. Sometimes I wonder if all the hyper-partisanship is meant to distract from financial long term failings.

LeonDurham says

one person briefed on the exchange

Sounds legit af

CBOEtrader says

Sounds legit af

That's modern journalism's version of "Well backed sources". Jesus, it's not even somebody claimed to hear it, it's somebody was told by somebody who allegedly heard it.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

USMCA: Trudeau Surrenders.
https://patrick.net/post/1319249/2018-10-01-markets-up-bigly-as-canada-caves-ushers-in-usmca

Of course he did. Liberals lost the past 4 of 5 provincial elections, including their old Stronghold of Quebec and even Ottawa. Companies were already laying off thousands in anticipation of no deal.

lol--the stock market goes up 200 pts if the Bears win on Sunday. That's your evidence that it was a good deal? 3.6% instead of 3.2% of the Canadian market? Not even considering that the Canadian government will simply subsidize their farmers like the US does so they are competitive.

CBOEtrader says

Sounds legit af

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

That's modern journalism's version of "Well backed sources". Jesus, it's not even somebody claimed to hear it, it's somebody was told by somebody who allegedly heard it.

Oh Crap. How did I forget?? Unnamed sources are only believable when they say good things about Trump!!

LeonDurham says

lol--the stock market goes up 200 pts if the Bears win on Sunday. That's your evidence that it was a good deal? 3.6% instead of 3.2% of the Canadian market? Not even considering that the Canadian government will simply subsidize their farmers like the US does so they are competitive.

Tell me what changes Obama made to NAFTA? Did he increase the minimum number of $15+/hr workers? Increase the percentage of Parts in Autos to be considered NAFTA?

Oh yeah, nothing. Because Obama and the Democrats are militant outsourcers Obama didn't even try.

And of course, the rise in stocks was the consensus:

https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stock-market-today/stock-futures-stocks-nafta-ge-tesla/

LeonDurham says

Oh Crap. How did I forget?? Unnamed sources are only believable when they say good things about Trump!!

Not long ago, a Journo who said to their Editor : "I heard it from a guy who says he heard it from another guy" would have been laughed out of the office. But if it's Anti-Trump, it's good to go!

"Accountability Journalism"

LastMan says

Strategist says

Wall Street is the ultimate judge on the economy and economic policies. Wall Street has concluded "increasing spending while cutting taxes" will benefit the economy at this point in time.

At this point in time. You hit the nail on the head with that part, that Wall Street is short term in its thinking. What will boost profits and thus commissions now. Most politicians, including Trump, are the same in their short term thinking. They push ahead with whatever their agenda is and put it on the back of the national debt.

I'm a long term thinker and expect the same. Sometimes I wonder if all the hyper-partisanship is meant to distract from financial long term failings.

US corporations are very short term oriented. I believe Trump is too. He is pushing for too much growth all at the same time, when businesses can't even find workers anymore.
I think he should go easy for a bit, and save his Aces for when a downturn materializes.
Nevertheless, I would pick Trump over Obama anytime.

Strategist says

Nevertheless, I would pick Trump over Obama anytime.

That was not the goal of this thread, to pick between Trump and whoever.

CBOEtrader says

What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument?

LastMan says

CBOEtrader says

What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument?

His support for ugly dirty coal.
Another one bites the dust. So sad.

https://www.energycentral.com/c/gn/chapter-11-us-coal-company
One of the oldest coal companies in the U.S. filed for bankruptcy protection to deal with it's $1.4 billion debt amid declining demand for fuel. Westmoreland Coal Co. began in 1854 in Pennsylvania and operates in Montana

Aphroman says

Strategist says

LeonDurham says

Will you ever admit that you were taken by a snake oil salesman?

I was. By Obama when I voted for him for his 2nd term.

What did he deceive you about? In 2012

1. Economy. Too socialistic. He could not inspire enough confidence among businesses, which was needed to get full recovery for the economy.
2. North Korea. He was a total disaster. They gained nuclear weapons.I was so disgusted.
3. Iran. He kicked the can down the street. Such a wimp.
4. Terrorism. He did not prevent the genocide of Yazidis. Very shameful.
5. He was too nice to be a tough President. "Nice guys finish last"
---------
The reasons why I did not vote for him in 2008 all came true. Yet I voted for him in 2016. I'm such a sucker.

CBOEtrader says

What is your most well-reasoned anti-Trump argument?

Deficit increase due to tax cuts without corresponding spending cuts - acts like a typical boomer needing instant gratification paid for by YUUGE debt.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Tell me what changes Obama made to NAFTA?

More whataboutism from the King. Obama sucked on trade--no doubt. He was way too eager to work with Republicans and do their dirty work.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Not long ago, a Journo who said to their Editor : "I heard it from a guy who says he heard it from another guy" would have been laughed out of the office. But if it's Anti-Trump, it's good to go!

"Accountability Journalism"

And if the unnamed source says there is no Trump/Russia collusion, then TwoScoops and all the other Trumpcucks eat it up no questions asked!

LeonDurham says

OK, read it.

No you didn't

LeonDurham says

More whataboutism from the King. Obama sucked on trade--no doubt. He was way too eager to work with Republicans and do their dirty work.

Funny, I didn't see that Trump needed Senate permission to start renegotiating NAFTA.

Here's Obama on TPP:
www.youtube.com/embed/nt4RBpxp4Tc

There's been so much winning I forgot that Trump buried the Neoliberal/Neocon favorite Trade Agreement, the one that makes Americans compete with enslaved Laotians. Whose tough labor protections include a $1/day minimum wage - which was the absolute poverty line, 30 years ago. Nobody in the world could make that and not eventually starve to death.

BUT Wait, there's MORE:

Obama promises to "Immediately" call the President of Mexico and the PM of Canada to renegotiate NAFTA campaigning in 2008. It never happened:
www.youtube.com/embed/PF9gpvI2UfU

So Obama started his Presidency proclaiming he'd renegotiate NAFTA, ended his Presidency pushing TPP, the greatest Corporate Giveaway and Outsourcing Regime that would have created unelected, unaccountable Courts of Corporate Lawyers to nullify US Laws, down to the local level to the point it could penalize a small town that wanted to limit store hours after midnight to stop drinking/crime in the parking lot.

Again, the President negotiates and THEN the Congress votes. Obama had a Dem Congress anyway in 2009-2010, but he wouldn't have needed one to start renegotiating So the "But Republican Congress" is doubly inapplicable.

Aphroman says

How was Obama too socialistic?

The first thing Obama did was to screw the GM bondholders in favor of the employees. You can't do that and inspire confidence in businesses. Trump made tax changes and just look at the boom that followed.

Aphroman says

Strategist says

Aphroman says

How was Obama too socialistic?

The first thing Obama did was to screw the GM bondholders in favor of the employees. You can't do that and inspire confidence in businesses. Trump made tax changes and just look at the boom that followed.

You said after the 2012 election though

Obama failed to inspire confidence due to his socialistic leanings, which is why we had a stagnating economy instead of a full recovery. A full recovery quickly follows a recession, but not when he was in charge.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

LeonDurham says

OK, read it.

No you didn't

Yep, sure did. So, how does it relate to me exactly?

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Again, the President negotiates and THEN the Congress votes. Obama had a Dem Congress anyway in 2009-2010, but he wouldn't have needed one to start renegotiating So the "But Republican Congress" is doubly inapplicable.

What the hell are you talking about? I said Obama sucked on trade. And that he worked way too much with Republicans to advance their free trade agenda. You're agreeing with me but pretending to disagree.

LeonDurham says

What the hell are you talking about? I said Obama sucked on trade. And that he worked way too much with Republicans to advance their free trade agenda. You're agreeing with me but pretending to disagree.

Obama promised to renegotiate NAFTA.

Promises Made, Promises Broken.

Trade is one of my top 3 issues, I can never trust the Democrats again until I see America First trade deals being made and/or voted in by them.