patrick.net

LeonDurham says

Mr, Whataboutism strikes again!!

Nope. Pointing out the pot is calling the kettle black on the same exact subject, when there is a binary choice isn't whataboutery

Whataboutery is "Gee, you Soviets put a lot of people in Gulags."
"Oh yeah, well, 100 years ago you had slavery and a few blacks got turned away from the polls."

So that being said, how would Hillary's stance have been different? Would she sanction Saudi Arabia? What did Obama do about Raif?

If she would have not initiated any serious criticisms or punishments for Saudi Arabia, and indeed continued to take their donations, then you have no point to make.


----

I'm not so sure the Saudis were involved and not Erdogan, who helped plot a coup against himself in order to imprison the opposition.

I find it very, very, interesting that all of a sudden so many members of the Elite are now Anti-Saudi after firmly defending or at least exhibiting "benign neglect" on the issue for a generation or so.

LeonDurham says

Strategist says

Look Bob, I trust Trump to deal with the Islamic threat. I never trusted Obama to do the same. It's as simple as that.

This reminds me of when someone posted a fake news article on here. When several posters pointed out that the article was a lie, the Trump supporters responded, even though the article was proven to be fake, they believe it anyway.

Are you saying you trusted Obama to deal with the Islamic threat? OMG. The man who made us less safe from Islam?

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Tell me about the sanctions the Obama administration imposed on the KSA. Oh, and did Hillary give all the Saudi campaign donations back? Or to the Clinton Foundation?

Asking for a friend.

Strategist says

Look Bob, I trust Trump to deal with the Islamic threat. I never trusted Obama to do the same. It's as simple as that.

Oh my Obama. Obama, Obama. WTF does Obama have to do with the fact the the new KSA that the syncopates have been drooling over turns out to be still the same old KSA?

So when is Trump going to start "dealing" with KSA? Looks to me like more KSA ass sucking going on as far as I can see. Saudi's are still the number 1 financier and promoter of terrorism around the globe no matter how much the ideologues cry Iran, Iran, Iran. .

personal

Khashoggi is butt buddies with Islamists and likely an Muslim Brotherhood Members. There's a pic of this "Journalist" writing a glowing interview with OBL and holding an RPG standing right next to him in 1988.

Erdogan is talking all kinds of shit, but doesn't know where the body is.

Call me dubious.

bob2356 says

Oh my Obama. Obama, Obama. WTF does Obama have to do with the fact the the new KSA that the syncopates have been drooling over turns out to be still the same old KSA?

Not the same old KSA. Women didn't drive or go to events in the old KSA. Nor was there a drive to reform Islam in the Old KSA.

THAT KSA, Obama and Hillary and the Foreign Policy Establishment and their WaPo Leak Outlet all loved.

Mighty strange that Saudi Arabia became bad since Trump became President, and we're taking Erdogan BS seriously. Even though this Journalist is to Osama Bin Laden what Ken Livingstone was to the IRA.

Saudi must have clawed wayyy back on the Pundit and Think Tank dollars. "We'll show our former financier who really has the influence!"

LeonDurham says

What are you talking about? Nobody brought up Obama under your usual bit of whataboutism.

You're whataboutering on your incorrect use of Whatabouttery.

Saved for posterity.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Mighty strange that Saudi Arabia became bad since Trump became President, and we're taking Erdogan BS seriously. Even though this Journalist is to Osama Bin Laden what Ken Livingstone was to the IRA.

The only strange thing is that you are now somehow a Saudi backer. Saudi has been bad since before 9/11. Did you forget where the terrorists are from?

Did you forgot everyone writing about how ridiculous Trump's Muslim ban was when he excluded Saudi? The #1 backer of terrorism.

LeonDurham says

The only strange thing is that you are now somehow a Saudi backer. Saudi has been bad since before 9/11. Did you forget where the terrorists are from?

Uh, Saudi Arabia embarked on a pretty aggressive reform plan starting a couple of years ago.

Women not only were permitted to attend events, but shortly after to do so without male accompaniment.
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/women-in-saudi-arabia-can-attending-sporting-events-at-select-stadiums

First Driver's Licenses were issued this past summer. Wasn't even on the table a few years ago.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44367981

The long promised reforms in Saudi Arabia by the American Foreign Policy Fuckup Establishment began happening - under Trump.

I suspect MbS has clawed back some of the Think Tank largess and redistributed some of it to Pro-Trump Actors, so I'm sure the FP/CFR/Ex-State Brigade is Livid.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Uh, Saudi Arabia embarked on a pretty aggressive reform plan starting a couple of years ago.

lol--you fell for the typical political theater. It's OK, you'll learn how these things work eventually.

LeonDurham says

lol--you fell for the typical political theater. It's OK, you'll learn how these things work eventually.

LOL - You fell for typical Political Theater. You don't understand that the Iran Deal and the Saudi Support for Trump and Criticism for the intervention against Shi'a Jihadis in Yemen and Erdogan's new pals in ISIS are all inter-related.

Now, you probably think Saudi Arabia should allow Burka-free living and legalize Gay Marriage all in one fell swoop tomorrow by 10AM, but you've never heard of reaction when you impose something people aren't ready for.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Now, you probably think Saudi Arabia should allow Burka-free living and legalize Gay Marriage all in one fell swoop tomorrow by 10AM, but you've never heard of reaction when you impose something people aren't ready for.

How about we start with no State sponsored murder of pro-reform journalists? Is that too much to ask?

antiforum

antiforum

LeonDurham says

How about we start with no State sponsored murder of pro-reform journalists? Is that too much to ask?

How about we start with Khashoggi with OBL?

This looks like a Tough "Democratic Reformer's" Piece: "Arab Youths Fight Shoulder to Shoulder with Mujahadeen" by Jamal Khashoggi


He's the tall guy in the middle smiling between Jihadis, cradling the Democratic Reformist Journalist's favorite unbiased journalist tool, the RPG.

personal

The book, The Looming Tower, was published in 2006 and is about the history of Al Qaeda. This is the segment where Khashoogis friendship with OBL is discussed.

Khashoogi was sent by the bin Laden Clan, with the blessing of the Saudi Government, that if he renounced violence he could "come home". This is before 9/11, of course.

His duties as an "Envoy" to offer OBL a chance to return to Saudi Arabia if he helped distance the Kingdom from Jihadi VIolence was because he was a regime insider at the time. Not a "Democratic Reformer".

This should dispense with the bullshit that Saudis and Don Jr. are "Smearing" Khashoogi.

Khashoogi joined the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1970s.
He was a personal friend of Osama Bin Laden, and many other "Saudi Dissidents", many of whom were "Reformers" of the Religious Kind (ie Islamists)
He never criticized Erdogan, who shut down countless media outfits and imprisoned journalists, at any point.
He has heavily criticized MBS, of course.
He recently praised the Muslim Brotherhood as a WaPo Employee
He backed "Moderate Rebels" in Syria, many of which are AQ/MB affiliates.
His best friend in Turkey is part of the Turkish Branch of the MB called AKP. It was that man who told his girlfriend to call the authorities is Kashoogi did not 'emerge from the Embassy'.

lol at whoever marked my last comment personal.

@Patrick--can you share what was personal about it?

MBS had a pro-reform journalist murdered.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-jamal-khashoggi-investigation-20181011-story.html

The Turkish government has told U.S. officials that it has audio and video recordings that prove Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul this month, according to U.S. and Turkish officials.

The recordings show that a Saudi security team detained Khashoggi in the consulate after he walked in on Oct. 2 to obtain an official document before his upcoming wedding, then killed him and dismembered his body, the officials said.

The audio recording in particular provides some of the most persuasive and gruesome evidence that the Saudi team is responsible for Khashoggi's death, the officials said.

Turkey released the Pastor that was in prison today. Strange timings.

When was the last time the US Media gave a shit about RIsen or anybody else Obama pursued with the Whistleblower Act?

When was the last time large and influential Media and Financial companies boycotted a Saudi Arabian Conference based on an allegation?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/khashoggi-disappearance-media-companies-pull-saudi-event-181012143101742.html

Why now? Why this incident? The US Press hardly mentioned all the years Saudi Arabia was a big wig in the UNHRC, the teenage Shi'a activists they executed, etc. At best a soft sigh and mild criticism with assurance the country was reforming. Now actual groundbreaking reform confirmed by on the ground evidence is being dismissed, and criticism is bold and heavy.

My suspicion: the Sauds and Trump have a deal to do reform Globalist Institutions. WTO, GATT, etc. This is a plot to weaken Saudi's influence ahead of that.

Be very skeptical.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

When was the last time the US Media gave a shit about RIsen or anybody else Obama pursued with the Whistleblower Act?

Is it possible to talk about Trump's flaws without referencing Obama?

Asking for a friend.

Aphroman says

LeonDurham says

flag

Wow

You you are always a victim.

antiforum

A codicil to the Patriot Act needs to state that we no longer need to pay for plane tickets to Saudi Arabia to have these twats tortured and killed, Saudi embassies will do.

Why burden GITMO with treacherous scum providing them with free room and board when we have dissident vego-matics in every Saudi consulate and embassy.

100% guarantee: if you can stick to the point and not attack the person then that comment will be very welcome and always visible.

The source for the Khashoggi was murdered story is this guy, Saffuri.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070911022431/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2004_March_1/ai_113363777

Saffuri is a "Palestinian Refugee" He was buddies with Abdurahman Alamoudi who is currently serving 23 years in prison for financing the assassination of a Saudi Prince with Islamic Radicals. Alamoudi was Saffuri's former employer at the American Muslim Council.

Saffuri is a Muslim Brotherhood sympathizer, as was Alamoudi, and Khashoggi was also a member dating all the way back to the 70s.

The Taliban are also "Reformers". And just like you can have the US as a Representative Democracy where personal freedoms and mob impulses are protected and restrained by a Constitution, the Muslim Brotherhood is fine with elected governments, so long as they are strictly limited by Sharia Law, which must be supreme. Iran has democratic elements but has a higher religious council and mandates Shar'ia law over any legislature.

Also, one of the two journalists involved in breaking this hit piece/story is Michael Isikoff whose name should ring some bells in Democratic Party circles, who once wrote a book with David Corn blasting Bush and the Iraq War. He's be on Democracy Now!

Finally, Isikoff wrote the Yahoo! News article that the FBI used to justify getting a FISA on Carter Page in Summer 2016.

Anybody think Isikoff is Trump Friendly?

LeonDurham says

Is it possible to talk about Trump's flaws without referencing Obama?

I'll compare and contrast the two to my heart's content, thanks. Despite what you think, making comparisons and contrasts isn't automatically whataboutery.

Uncovering more fun stuff.

Guess who Jamal Khashoggi's Uncle is?

Adnan Khashoggi, world famous Arms Dealer worth billions. Songs have been written about his massive yacht.www.youtube.com/embed/85dYshiw55Q

Read more about the lifestyle of this incredibly Wealthy Arms Dealer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Khashoggi

The Khashoggis are also related by marriage to Hussein bin Talal.

Aphroman says

Right. However, the claim is that Trump is different. Constantly comparing him to Obama et al, and claiming that he’s only doing what Hillary/Obama does, is arguing contrary to your point: that Trump is different

When somebody complains that USMCA/NAFTA is not much, it's perfectly legit to point out that the previous President:

1. Campaigned in front of the AFL-CIO and in other Forums on immediately renegotiating NAFTA
2. Did nothing for his entire 8 years,
2b Whcih has nothing to do with Republicans, since the President has the power to (re-)negotiate any Treaty. The Senate's only role is to vote them up or down after they've been negotiated.

Bin Talal paid off Harvard Law to get legend ObamFuck accepted.

Patrick says

My greatest disappointment with Trump is that he does not call out the Saudis for their lack of democracy, lack of freedom of speech, lack of freedom of religion, etc etc.

Patrick:

You are so naive. Saudi Arabia uses Israeli technology. Saudi Arabia is a Zionist state. What do Zionist states care about democracy, or freedom of speech, or freedom of religion?

I warned you, Patrick, to see this all in a Zionist setting. Donald Trump bully's everyone. When have you seen him bully Israel? Won't happen. Read this and weep for your nation and our involvement in the middle east, Patrick:

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/09/21/574734/spyware-saudi-arabia-uae-israel

You really need to take the blinders off, Patrick.

Aphroman says

So why is Trump not protecting our Sovereignty?

The FDA stands with Real Americans in descheduling CBD, rightfully so, our Veterans and sick children need their Plant based medicine. Yet Trumps DEA is siding with foreigners and treaties while leaving our Veterans and kids to suffer unnecessarily.

Care to address my point, or just stick to the usual script of assigning a few phony strawmen?

Aphroman, I'm talking about renegotiating NAFTA, something Obama promised multiple times to do, but only Trump actually promised and executed.

You're bringing up drug regulation and enforcement, an entirely separate issue from a continental free trade agreement, so I'm both amused and confused that you're accusing me of "sticking to the script of assigning a few phony strawman" since it's not the topic under discussion.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

How about we start with Khashoggi with OBL?

OMG a journalist working on a story knew the guy he was doing the story on and even met him. How fucking bizarre is that? No one has ever seen that done before or since. and it happened only 30 short years ago. . ROFLOL. The saudi apologists come up with some really funny shit.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

The source for the Khashoggi was murdered story is this guy, Saffuri.

Of course he wasn't murdered, he's off cavorting a a brothel some where. Saudi's would never murder anyone. The nerve of people publishing such obviously fake news.