patrick.net

I think this is one of those things that should have been extensively discussed before marriage. (See also kids, lifetime BMI, chore distribution, proximity to in-laws, retirement funding, openness to "new" experiences, etc.) A pre-nup may not be necessary, but jotting down some notes and agreement in principle (with terms to reopen discussion) seems like sanity to me.

If the house purchase was a horrible (eg you can't afford it) or totally illogical (eg McMansion for 2 people) move and if the other person is absolutely unwilling to compromise - then I'll cut to the chase and start calling divorce lawyers. No point wasting years of my life with an illogical person.

Even in cases where wives are allegedly pushing for houses, the husbands are often at fault because they caved on a critical issue and was not able to argue their point across. Ditto if the gender roles were reversed.

Perhaps pregnant women are different - probably best to discuss the housing issue (and maybe the naming issue) before your formerly lovely significant other insist on putting Spartacus and Bertha in a $1.2M McMansion.

SFWoman Says:

> I find it interesting that in both San Francisco and Berkeley,
> where a majority of people consider themselves progressives,
> the one thing that seems to scare people more than anything
> else is change.

Progressives like change (if things change the way the like them to change) and are open minded (to ideas that they consider good and progressive).

I’m not a “Progressive” or “Conservative” but you have to admire the Conservatives since they come right out and say that they don’t like change and that they are not “open minded”…

FAB,

More often than not, those "conservatives" are not conservative but reactionary (roll back the New Deal) or out and out revolutionary (nation building in Iraq).

astrid,

I think that true Conservatives would change your use of "conservatives" to "neocons masquerading as Conservatives". I wonder what to call the anti-change progressives?

skibum,

My architect friend says he knows of legions of laws should you decide to add a bay to an existing house, but he isn't aware that they are required.

I just went down South Van Ness near about 18th, and there are two new buildings of totally different styles, both with some form of oriel on them. Now I will have to look at new housing around town.

anti-change progressives

Reactionary Revolutionists?

anti-change progressives

Reactionary Revolutionists?

How about just Bay Area "liberals"

Bay Area “liberals”

Perfect.

Bay Area “liberals”
Your forgot the coffee drink:
BA Latte Liberals

@EBGuy,

Of course! We need to hone this a bit, maybe add it to the glossary?

Patrick wrote:

> Some men who write to me complain that they know
> that a house is a horrible deal right now, but their wives
> want a house pronto, no matter what the cost.

It is not just “wives” that want a house it is “potential wives” (since they know that unless a guy already owns a house very few will be able to buy a house in a nice neighborhood and pay off all their credit cards)…

Close to 99% of the women I meet ask questions to find out if I own a home after first meeting me (and will often blow me off to talk to some dorky VC guy who spent 10 years in engineering before going to business school when I tell them I’m a renter)…

BA Latte Liberals

You have BALLs.

FAB,

just curious, how do these highly educated women skillfully find out whether you own a home? Isn't it a bit too vulgar to make one's intention so obvious? How old are they usually?

My experience is, single women care about your pay than your ownership situation, probably I've been out of the dating market for too long.

Sheesh, in the extremely short time when I was dating, I spent first and second and third dates looking for signs of clinical psychosis. And usually, I'll find it by the third date.

Maybe it's just the sort of guys I bump into.

Where do these harpies find their rich dad...ergh, suckers...ergh, eligible bachelors?

SFWoman,

I love your use of the word "vocation".

"Purchasing a house together is probably the #1 goal for a newly wed"

What about those single people who own homes? Wouldn't marriage mean a net addition to houses on the market?

As for #1 goal for newly wed, I can think of many worthier goals to aim for. Not the least, consolidating ones' CDs (of both kinds) and returning unwanted wedding gifts.

SFWoman said:
I think of roots as communities of friends and family that you can rely upon

Oh no, no, no! This is a Confused Realtwhore you're talking about. In his twisted world, you develop "Roots" by paying stupid loads of money for overpriced property, so that the realtwhore can get his commission.

SP

Confused Realtwhore said:
*shrug* that’s just the way it is. if you have a financial stake in your community, you become more involved.

Of course - and if you have a REALLY big financial stake, then you become so involved that you try everything you can to keep people buying houses even when it isn't a good idea to do so. That is probably the first lesson in Realtwhore Skool.

SP

O.K that's about enough. DISCONNECT!

Wow! Did you see the house at 19040 Brook Lane - Very cute place, spacious 3/2 on large lot in a GREAT location, and in Saratoga!! Remodeled, granite and everything. I was sure it would go at least 100K over asking, but after JUST 19 days, it is already reduced by over 50K - AND IS STILL SITTIN ON THE MARKET!

*shrug* I guess as long as people want to sell, there will be sellers. Oh well, I am just going to wait a while longer and enjoy the whether.

Confused Realtwhore

ConfusedRenter Says...

Actually, I don't give a $hit what ConfusedRenter says. His ass needs to be banned.

The biggest thing is waking up 35 or 40 and realizing that life is what happens when you wait.

Actually, the biggest thing is waking up and realizing you're a failed IBanker trying to scrape by as a Realtwhore and thinking the only way to drum up business is to troll a RE Bubble blog.

If you truly believe this, I pity you, for you must be near death.

Everyone knows the #1 goal of newlyweds regardless of age and circumstance is sex.

F'ing hilarious! I guess "CR" is truly confused. "lol" and "I'm shocked!" You guys make me chuckle!

If you ask parents to be, many would refuse to raise a child in a rented apartment or house. Don’t know what’s so bad about it, but so many people just refuse to do so. They want to establish roots.

Family roots are build on shared adventures, commitment and dedication to the upbringing of the children. When Pops is working 2 jobs to pay for the house and the whole family is scrimping at the end of the month to make the mortgage payment, that's the roots of a divorce or an early grave.

I just finished carving pumpkins with the kids in front of a cozy fire. Rental house, sure, but ask my kids if they cared. How are the FB families faring/feeling this ghoulish season? See how deep those family roots go after the foreclosure hits.

skibum Says:

> Actually, I don’t give a $hit what ConfusedRenter says.

It looks like I’m not the only one that has a hard time reading the ConfusedRenter posts…

I don't feel sorry for those guys, because they hitched up with high maintenance women. The Male Ghetto that Silicon Valley has become just makes matters worse for them. It is a poor value proposition.

OO Says:

> FAB, just curious, how do these highly educated
> women skillfully find out whether you own a home?
> Isn’t it a bit too vulgar to make one’s intention so
> obvious? How old are they usually?

It is obvious since most single “women” will keep drilling down to get the info they want. Young “girls” (in their 20’s) just want to have fun (and another free drink) while married “ladies” just want to talk (and often complain about their husbands who have had too much to drink)…

Most SF women in their 30’s on a mission to get married want to know 1. Where you live (and if you own or rent), 2. Where you went to school (and if you went to grad school) and 3. What you do for a living (to estimate how much you make)….

I try to give vague answers, but they will just keep asking questions until they get the information they want:

Q: Where do you live?
A: The City
Q: What part of the city?
A: Not far from Laurel Village
Q: What street?

Q: Where did you go to school?
A: Here in Northern California
Q: Where in Northern California?
A: The East Bay
Q: Where in the East Bay?

Q: What do you do?,,,.

One of the things that attracted me to my wife was her desire to save money. Pretty early on, I bought her a diamond necklace and her response was "I'd rather have Cisco stock!" which really endeared her to me and is a pretty amusing thing to say, in any case.

Unfortunately, we want to save for somewhat different reasons, which may end up causing us trouble down the road, but for now, we are saving together.

I never really understood the whole "peacock" thing, where you pretend like you are richer than you really are, in order to attract a disirable woman. Doesn't this backfire once she figures out you have $40k in credit card debt? I guess for some men, this doesn't really matter, since they have accomplished their goal by then.

Liberals don't really oppose positive (or even only hopefully positive) change. A better word for these kinds of people is reactionary. But I have to admit that the Bay Area sure has a lot of people who oppose change and vote Democratic. Sometimes they have been on the right side of history, like when they stopped the Urban Redevelopers from tearing down beautiful old victorians and building concrete bunkers, like they did in the lower Fillmore, to when they stopped Caltrans from building a freeway right through Golden Gate park.

But this is an example of where they are wrong. Berkeley needs more people living downtown. I was a Cal student and this corner in particular could use a facelift.

Luckily for me, I met my wife long ago, when we were both very young and just out of college-poor-and-debt-ridden. When we moved in together we were renters in Chicago and the only people who owned were older boomers pretty much. Even after we got married we didn't even think about buying, only about paying off our loans and saving. It seems like today every 25 year old is talking about "needing" to buy a condo before they're priced out forever.

We did the first-home stretch thing, the upgrade, the nesting, the de-nesting purge (ironically which happened shortly after our son came). And now we rent. I like to complain about how much renting sucks for us, but it's been pretty tolerable. Probably because my wife and I both are on the same page. I just think I'm lucky to have met a good woman early enough for us to have both made the journey from the beginning together. It's a lot easier to ride through rough spots when we've both weathered all the same storms.

FAB,

that is hilarious. I usually shy away from these women right away, and thank god when I met my wife, we were both dirt poor students, and she is from a richer family than me. if there was a gold digger in our family, it should have been me.

I also have to say that these girls are not very smart. A better way to do would be:

Date 1:
Gal: Where do you live?
FAB: City
Gal: Gosh, I heard that rent is going up these days in the City, did you have a hike in rent?
FAB: I don't think the rent hike is going to last.
Gal: My landlord is nice, because I kept writing him personal notes to keep him on good terms, what about yours?
FAB: Writing notes sounds like a good tactic.
Gal: (thinking to herself, this sucks, can never squeeze anything out of this chap)

Date 2
Gal: Where did you go to school?
FAB: East Bay
Gal: Oh, you must have gone to UCB, I have a pal, Joe Schmuck, who went to Haas, happen to know him?
FAB: Haas is a good school, your pal went to grad school or undergrad at Haas?
Gal: He did his MBA there, I heard that the starting pay is about $160K, is that true?
FAB: That sounds like a lot of money.
Gal: (this guy is hopeless, sounds like a dick).

:-)

SFWoman,

sounds like you are just a 3-4 years senior than my wife, you should have overlapped with her for one year.

It also sounds like in our last conversation, we did refer to TWO different suicide incidents. Well, that says a lot about the suicide rate of our school. When I was there, the entering class already comprised 30-35% women. But I am all for having more girls on campus!

Little Worried,

my theory is, lots of the renters of today are the prospective buyers who got scared by the recent downturn and decided to become bubble sitters. Understandably, they are in better financial situation who can turn into buyers any time, and they obviously demand a better quality of life while bubble sitting. Ask the bubble sitters on this site, FAB, Randy H, skibum, none of them, I believe, will rent in less desirable areas.

Little worried I glad you get 1 bedroom after only little search, maybe soon you get also lucky and get big mortgage, then you not be so worried. maybe you get very lucky and have prime area mortgage, then you maybe not so worried.

FUCK OFF TROLL.

OO,

Or just for moving Wellesley and Smith closer to the Charles. :)

Dude says:

".The biggest thing is waking up 35 or 40 and realizing that life is what happens when you wait."
_____

skibum Says:

Actually, the biggest thing is waking up and realizing you’re a failed IBanker trying to scrape by as a Realtwhore and thinking the only way to drum up business is to troll a RE Bubble blog.
_____

Ha, ha! Yup!

"7% was stated on the low side" (e-mail Lowball rec'd from realtor (TM))

I've never understood how NAR could let local realt-whores get away with this? Regardless of their credentials this is pretty irresponsible talk, especially when you follow it up w/ 12% per year appreciation on the high end!

Apparently realt-whores don't need to single handedly support the market they just need one GF for this month's commission check. That's what makes this all the more wreckless. Because e-mails like this are done in bulk all they need is one potential FB that NEEDS to believe this garbage!

Lowball, if you could link that e-mail here it would help to put this into context. TIA.

Randy H. Says:

> I just think I’m lucky to have met a good woman early
> enough for us to have both made the journey from
> the beginning together.

There is a lot of pressure from society to get married before you buy a house (and once you are married have kids). Finding the right wife is a lot like finding the right home.

It sounds like Randy married a smart younger woman with manageable student loans and a lot of potential (that is kind of like buying a nice newer home with a manageable mortgage in an area that is getting better).

I was thinking that a city home is a lot like a city girl and a country home is a lot like a country girl. In the city you can find a tall thin old money girl (that probably grew up in a tall thin Pac. Heights home with a view of the bay) or a nice average looking hard working girl (that probably grew up with hard working parents in West Portal). The sophisticated country girl probably grew up in a vineyard and rode horses while the working glass country girl probably grew up on a working farm and drove tractors…

FormerAptBroker Says:
It is obvious since most single women will keep drilling down to get the info they want.

Drilling down, that would be a change. Many of them aren't even that subtle. Even saying that I am married doesn't always help - a good 25% just take that in stride as a minor detail to be sorted out later.

"So, you work at XYZ, huh? Wow! How long have you been working there?" My stock answer is: "Oh a little over a year." Which is (technically) absolutely true.

SP

George,

Stick to your guns! Look, so many people just assumed we "bought" our ahem, upscale condo. If that's what they want to believe b/c it reaffirms their basic premise that it's always better to own, then who am I to pee on their parade? If they do a double take and say "Well you did buy correct"? Well when you explain to people that you're on a lease w/option to buy they're like, Oh he's "o.k". Meaning you can pull the trigger w/the drop of a hat and it seems to shut most people up.

Why not take this route? You're a sophisticated guy, just baffle 'em w/some BS, that way everybody gets what they want.