patrick.net

CBOEtrader says

https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

Mises ? Really ?

Jordan Peterson would think you're an idiot, and totally stretching here. He routinely uses Hitler as an example of far right wing evil.

Dictatorship does not imply socialism. Fascism does not imply socialism.

The Nazi party infiltrated corporations and have influence there, and visa versa. That's why thinking of it as a "merger" as in meme makes sense. Corporations really did stay in private hands - not just in appearances.

The basis of the claim that Nazi Germany was capitalist was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.

Nixon experiments with price controls during an inflationary period. Does that mean he was a socialist ?

marcus says

Jordan Peterson would think you're an idiot, and totally stretching here. He routinely uses Hitler as an example of far right wing evil.

Ty for bringing up valid points. Am I wrong, i think JP uses Hitler as an example of far right wing personality type. I've never heard JP suggest their political system isnt socialist. Nor is socialist necessarily right or left wing. I do not have time to research, if you have the relevant quotes please share

rdm says

Its a word but you need to add the modifier to it. Yes of course they were socialist but National Socialists. The definition is they were nationalists as in Germany First and using the government to control the economy and of course the people.

Soviet Union also became nationalist after Stalin (and his faction for "Socialism in One Country) kicked out Trotsky (and his faction for rapid exportation of socialist revolution all over the world). Except for the first few years of its existence when the Soviet Union was too busy fighting a civil war to export revolution and needed all the help they could find from fellow socialists of other countries, the Soviet Union was in fact a nationalist and socialist regime.

As was China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. etc. not long after the establishment of their respective communist/socialist regimes. "International socialism" doesn't seem to work for ruling a country. Every communist/socialist country quickly resorted to nationalism and socialism in order to carry on their collectivist policies enslaving their domestic populations.

Socialism and Nazism are even closer to each other than kissing cousins: the conflict between the two is like the deadly competition between Trotsky and Stalin after the death of Lenin, like a pair of twin brothers fighting over the inheritance from their parents. Of course all (national) socialists have to have regular internal purges as the economic pie gets smaller under their central-planning mismanagement.

marcus says

Why do you try so hard to argue that Hitler wasn't right wing ? Of course you can have totalitarianism on the right or the left.

So, do you think Hitler was a libertarian or an anarchist?

You can try to redefine words all you want but national socialists was an authoritarian total control of the people kind of government a lot like the democratic socialists who want complete control over what you say, eat, and drive.

marcus says

Jordan Peterson

Jordan abhors socialism.

Onvacation says

Jordan abhors socialism.

Yes as well as right wing authoritarian regimes like Hitler's.

But you guys always get confused about it. Because social programs like social security and medicare and public schools and well paid police, are not the kind of socialism that lead to authoritarian evil.. Neither would medicare for all or free college be. (Not advocating - just saying).

Just like on the right in the U.S., being in favor of low taxes or conservative judges doesn't make you racist, homophobic, or a gun nut. These issues are somewhat independent of each other. Not that some of you don't buy the whole package.

marcus says

not the kind of socialism that lead to authoritarian evil

"National Socialism was a collectivist authoritarian movement run by “social justice warriors.” That this brand of “justice” benefited only some based on immutable characteristics perfectly aligns with the modern brand. The Nazi ideal embraced identity politics based on the primacy of the people or “volk” and invoked state-based solutions for every possible problem. It was nation-based socialism — the nation being especially important to those who bled in the Great War."


Do you have an argument for why you think nazism is on the low government libertarian end of the political spectrum rather than the big government state controlled and of the spectrum?

Or maybe you are looking at a completely different spectrum?

Please share.

Onvacation says

Do you have an argument for why you think nazism is on the low government libertarian end of the political spectrum rather than the big government state controlled and of the spectrum?

Defining a left right spectrum as being total government versus total freedom is a definition made by libertarians. That would be one spectrum, I guess, but not one that makes a lot of sense.

Another spectrum, which puts Nazis on the far right is one that has workers rights and protections for minority rights on the left, and protection of capital, wealth and power on the right, as well as populist appeals to nationalism and racial superiority on the right.

In the U.S. both sides end up supporting big government, i.e. big military, big corporate welfare, and placating the public as much as needed to still be somewhat of a democracy.

marcus says

Another spectrum,

Please show us the diagram.

WaltertheoFlanders says

If the USA is moving towards fascism it is because of the ever growing power of the president to be a dictator stemming from the use of executive orders.

Interesting, but there were some Presidents in past which were issuing many more executive orders than tRUMP. Out of relatively recent ones, Carter was the worst, far worse than Trump or Obama.
By this idea (of # of executive orders) FDR was the most dictatorial President. Trump is a little above recent averages, but the amount of noise about it is much louder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders

Onvacation says

Wrong. Anarchism means no government at all, that would be to the ultimate right side of the spectrum. Communism/Socialism is the ultimate Left side, with government control and ownership of everything. NAZI/Fascism is also on the Left, as it has total government control, but not ownership, of everything. "Monarchy" does not even make sense here, as Monarchy can vary from figurehead to absolute despot. You left out Libertarian completely, which by believing in very limited government, would be on the Right.

Is this really the best the right can do? Make up garbage arguments claiming that Nazi's were left-wing? Is that what the right is all about today?
This is so intellectually weak and pathetic that it could only come from the right. This ranks up there with Bush Jr. calling Al Qaeda fascists.

Look, if the right is so wonderful and socialism is so evil, then stop using any social services. Stop paying your taxes. Stop supporting the military, the police, the fire department. Stop using your phones, tv's and computers (all devices invented with socialist funding). Stop getting any medical treatment that was not wholly funded by private enterprise.

Basically, crawl off into a cave and die a miserable, lonely death. Or are your principles just more crap?

6rdB says

Presidents in past which were issuing many more executive orders than tRUMP.

Perhaps not sure. But Trumps use of the emergency declaration to get funding for the border wall, after being denied funding.by Congress does take this to a new level. Some of this is Congress fault by giving the president powers that were by constitution delegated to Congress. In Trump we have a President more than willing to push presidential powers to the previous percieved limit and well beyond. And who is going to stop him? His presidency shows the weakness of a system which was supposedly predicated on having a fairly weak executive. Trump wants to have all the power and he is taking it when it is to his liking. He is setting the standards for future presidents, whether you like his agenda or hate it this should be of concern.

Expat01 says

Basically, crawl off into a cave and die a miserable, lonely death.

Is that your best argument?

Maybe you have a diagram that shows socialism and nazism on the political spectrum?

rdm says

He is setting the standards for future presidents,

Or maybe he's following the example of previous presidents?

"Why do you still hold out for a socialist utopia when every place that has tried communism has utterly destroyed their country? Millions and millions of people have been murdered and disappeared into the night never to be heard from again. Communism is responsible for more death and destruction than Hitler and Nazi Germany. I'm trying to keep an open mind here so tell me something to change my mind if you can."
Jordan Peterson

rdm says

Perhaps not sure. But Trumps use of the emergency declaration to get funding for the border wall, after being denied funding.by Congress does take this to a new level. Some of this is Congress fault by giving the president powers that were by constitution delegated to Congress. In Trump we have a President more than willing to push presidential powers to the previous percieved limit and well beyond. And who is going to stop him? His presidency shows the weakness of a system which was supposedly predicated on having a fairly weak executive. Trump wants to have all the power and he is taking it when it is to his liking. He is setting the standards for future presidents, whether you like his agenda or hate it this should be of concern.

FDR was issuing >300 EO's per year; Carter, about 80; Clinton, 45; tRUMP, 46. There is, of course, a touch of irony that Trump issues a little bit more EO's (per year) than Obama, after railing against Obama EO's. Other than that, I do not see how tRUMP stands out. The ideologically unhappy side always will complain about EO's.

rdm says

6rdB says

Presidents in past which were issuing many more executive orders than tRUMP.

Perhaps not sure. But Trumps use of the emergency declaration to get funding for the border wall, after being denied funding.by Congress does take this to a new level. Some of this is Congress fault by giving the president powers that were by constitution delegated to Congress. In Trump we have a President more than willing to push presidential powers to the previous percieved limit and well beyond. And who is going to stop him? His presidency shows the weakness of a system which was supposedly predicted on having a fairly weak executive. Trump wants to have all the power and he is taking it when it is to his liking. He is setting the standards for future presidents, whether you like his agenda or hate it this should be of concern.

I don't see a problem with the executive order for the border wall funding. Everyone - including the lamestream media - was harping for weeks/months on the emergency and crisis at the border, so this is totally appropriate directing of funds, not just some made up scenario. Since all the enforcement actions and the positive decisions from the SCOTUS wrt to enforcing immigration the number of illegal immigrants entering and apprehended has been reduced dramatically, and caravans have been discouraged from entering Mexico to pass through. Money well spent despite congress cock-blocking for no reason other than tds / "orange man baaad!".

Onvacation says

Please show us the diagram.

You can't read ?

marcus says

Another spectrum, which puts Nazis on the far right is one that has workers rights and protections for minority rights on the left, and protection of capital, wealth and power on the right, as well as populist appeals to nationalism and racial superiority on the right.

That last part is how the corporations and wealthy get the votes. It's pure manipulation. Bait and switch.

Now they're taking pollution protections away. Np problem, in fact the cult followers will find an excuse for loving it.

marcus says

Another spectrum, which puts Nazis on the far right is one that has workers rights and protections for minority rights on the left, and protection of capital, wealth and power on the right, as well as populist appeals to nationalism and racial superiority on the right.

So where do the Communists and libertarians fit in your spectrum?

And why are all the democrats so obsessed with race?

Onvacation says

This is only true today.

Left vs right means nothing